Holes in the trinity

[Katzpur]

Again another indication of your intelligence level. Frankly, I am not interested. Tell someone else.

I think I will.

 

[.kaleb]

.kaleb, as a JW, do you believe Jesus Christ is LORD? Do you believe that Isaiah 6:1-4 is a reference to the risen Christ?

Jesus is both my king and Lord.1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

You may want to define what you mean by LORD tho.

As for Isaiah 6:1-4 being a reference to the risen Christ... Well let's let the scriptures themselves answer.
(American Standard Version) Isaiah 6:1-4 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple.
2 Above him stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Isaiah 6:1-4 is a snapshot of the spirit realm. Interestingly Isaiah 6:1-4 can be cross referenced to Revelation 4:8 (King James Version) which says: And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; andthey were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Lord God Almighty is only ever used with reference to Jehovah, never to Jesus.

The scriptures make it quite clear to me who & what Isaiah 6:1-4 is speaking of, how do you reconcile it with being the risen Christ?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, .kaleb, I suggest you look at John 12:41 (in context). When Isaiah saw 'his glory, and spake of him' he was speaking about Jesus Christ, the King.

As truthofscripture rightly said, let the scriptures do the talking.

And while you're at it, you might like to check out a couple of other parallel passages. Isaiah 8:13,14 is confirmed by 1 Peter 2:5-8. In this passage the 'LORD of hosts' is a sanctuary to some but a 'stone of stumbling' and 'rock of offence to both the houses of Israel'. Are you denying that this is a reference to Jesus Christ?

And a passage I particularly like - Malachi 3:1, 'BEHOLD, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.'

I encourage you to read this passage carefully and thoughtfully. The first messenger is John the Baptist (Mark 1:2) and the Lord (Heb. Ha-adon, Messiah) is the messenger of the new covenant. He (the Word of God) shall come 'to his temple' - which I believe, and have scripture to support, is the temple of Jesus' body. In other words, the Father (the LORD of hosts) sends his Spirit suddenly (ie at the baptism in the Jordan) to his temple. Christ, the Word of God, entered Jesus at the time of his baptism. Why do you think, when you read John's gospel (John 1:1-8), that the references to the Word of God are followed not by the childhood of Jesus but by reference to John the Baptist bearing witness to the Light?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Allow me to ask one more question, directed at both .kaleb and truthofscripture: Is Jehovah our Saviour, or is Jesus Christ our Saviour?

 

[sojourner]

Lord God Almighty is only ever used with reference to Jehovah, never to Jesus.

That's not quite true. The LXX substitutes "Lord" (kurios) for YHVH. In Philippians, Paul uses the same word (kurios) in referring to Jesus.

 

[moorea944]

That's not quite true. The LXX substitutes "Lord" (kurios) for YHVH. In Philippians, Paul uses the same word (kurios) in referring to Jesus.

Just because someone is called "Lord" doesnt mean he is God. Jesus was called Lord, the Angel of God's Presence, Abraham, etc.....

 

[sojourner]

Just because someone is called "Lord" doesnt mean he is God. Jesus was called Lord, the Angel of God's Presence, Abraham, etc.....

But it is compelling that the exact term is used -- and it's not a term that's "usual" or "everyday" -- it's a term that's reserved in the LXX for YHVH. Since the term is reserved for a divine identity, what that tells us is that Paul sees Jesus' "Lordship" the same as YHVH's -- IOW, Jesus' divinity is seen by Paul as the same as YHVH's. Otherwise, Paul would have used a different term.

 

[.kaleb]

Well, .kaleb, I suggest you look at John 12:41 (in context). When Isaiah saw 'his glory, and spake of him' he was speaking about Jesus Christ, the King.

redemption you raise some interesting reasonings there, so let's consider it one at a time.
John 12:41 (American Standard Version) These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him.
Whose glory did Isaiah see and speak of?

What do you think is meant by "to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed when referenced to John 12:40,41?
Understanding this makes understanding Isaiah 6:1-4 possible. So Whose glory did Isaiah see?

(American Standard Version) Isaiah 6:1-4 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. (Who is The Lord here mentioned, Jesus or Jehovah?)
2 Above him stood the seraphim: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. (Vs 3 provides us with the answer)
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Whose glory did Isaiah see?

As you said before context is important. So with reference to John 12:41, let's go back 3 verses to vs 38 of John 12(American Standard Version)... that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
who is the arm of The Lord?
John is quoting Isaiah here, so again let's enable the scripture to interpret scripture. John is quoting Isaiah 53:1 which reads: (American Standard Version) Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?

And in the Byington version it says, Isaiah 53:1 Who believes our news? and to whom is Jehovah’s arm disclosed?

I'll let you digest this before addressing your other points.

 

[.kaleb]

Allow me to ask one more question, directed at both .kaleb and truthofscripture: Is Jehovah our Saviour, or is Jesus Christ our Saviour?

Good question by the way, I'll address this once we have dealt with your other questions.

 

[newone]

Thanks Kaleb!

 

[Redemptionsong]

.Kaleb, I agree that we should look carefully at the passage in Isaiah first.

And yes, I would agree that 6:3 refers to Yahweh, read as Adonai in my Bible. So, it makes sense to say that the king on the throne is Jehovah.

The same Jehovah is mentioned in verse 5, 'for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts (Jehovah)'.

The issue is whether Jehovah is one with his Son, Christ Jesus.

Clearly, the 'arm of the Lord' (John 12:38) is a reference to Jesus Christ. But so too is the reference to his 'glory', verse 41. This same GLORY cannot be separated from the Lord of hosts, any more than the arm can be separated from the being of Jehovah.

Which is the very reason that I ask you to explain how Jehovah and Christ can be divided into two distinct beings.

 

[Redemptionsong]

moorea944, here's a puzzle for you:-
In Genesis 18:1 it says that 'The LORD appeared unto him;' (Abraham visited by three men); in verse 22 it is said, 'The men turned their faces from thence, and went towards Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before the LORD;' and in chapter 19:1 it is said, ' There came two Angels to Sodom at even.'

Can we deduce from this that of the three men who appeared to Abraham, two were angels, and one, who remained, was Yahweh/Jehovah himself?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I'm probably in a different time zone to you guys, so I'll throw in a little titbit while I have the time.

Titus 3:3-7; 'For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

So who is our Saviour?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The more I contemplate the unitarian position regarding God's nature the more ironic I find it. Unitarians must be arguing that God's Word is not one with God. Yet this is rubbish. The Word of love (Christ) comes from the Spirit of love (the Father), and when the Word of love is shared (Holy Spirit) it has the effect of embracing all who receive that love. This is the trinitarian position on God's gracious act of redemption. Instead of emphasising distance and separation, it joyously recognises the true desire of God to save the lost and fill His Kingdom.

 

[moorea944]

moorea944, here's a puzzle for you:-
In Genesis 18:1 it says that 'The LORD appeared unto him;' (Abraham visited by three men); in verse 22 it is said, 'The men turned their faces from thence, and went towards Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before the LORD;' and in chapter 19:1 it is said, ' There came two Angels to Sodom at even.'

Can we deduce from this that of the three men who appeared to Abraham, two were angels, and one, who remained, was Yahweh/Jehovah himself?

This is not a puzzle at all. All three were angels. Angels can bear God's name as in the angel of God's Presence. He can speak as if God Himself was speaking. He could also forgive sins. God can talk through His angels too. Remember what the bible says about God, no one has ever seen God at anytime. Two of the angels went to Sodom and the third angel stayed with Abraham. God does not come down to earth. There is no reason for that. His spirit is everywhere. He also has His angels doing work here too. God manifestation.

In Exodus, God looked out of the pillar of cloud. But reading the whole chapter we know that it was an angel. So many stories about angels and it says that, "God said", but again, we read it was an angel.

 

[.kaleb]

.Kaleb, I agree that we should look carefully at the passage in Isaiah first.

And yes, I would agree that 6:3 refers to Yahweh, read as Adonai in my Bible. So, it makes sense to say that the king on the throne is Jehovah.

The same Jehovah is mentioned in verse 5, 'for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts (Jehovah)'.

we are in agreement on this

The issue is whether Jehovah is one with his Son, Christ Jesus.

One in what sense? Jesus himself said in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
How are we to understand this?
Is Jesus, Jehovah? For he says in John 14:9... Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also.... And yet in John 1:18 Christ himself said "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
I would say that the "oneness" Jehovah has with Jesus is this:
• oneness in thought, will, unity, desire, intention, truth, justice, love.
But are they one and the same being, or two distinct entities, bound together in love and unity, intention and thought?
I have a definite view on this, but it's not my business to tell anyone what they should think, I let the scriptures do the talking for me.

Clearly, the 'arm of the Lord' (John 12:38) is a reference to Jesus Christ.

I concur

But so too is the reference to his 'glory', verse 41. This same GLORY cannot be separated from the Lord of hosts, any more than the arm can be separated from the being of Jehovah.

can you expand on this

Which is the very reason that I ask you to explain how Jehovah and Christ can be divided into two distinct beings.

Again I'll let the scriptures do the talking.
(Byington) John 1:18 Nobody ever has seen God; an Only Born God, he who is in the Father’s bosom, he gave the account of him.
An Only Born God... What does that suggest to you as regards Jesus? Did he have a beginning?
Jehovah has no beginning or end. Habakkuk 1:12 says: Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die...

Without wanting to quote endless scripture after scripture, I will quote one last passage. (Byington) Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, 'Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation:"
•Would you agree these scriptures indicate that Jesus had a definite beginning?

 

[.kaleb]

But it is compelling that the exact term is used -- and it's not a term that's "usual" or "everyday" -- it's a term that's reserved in the LXX for YHVH. Since the term is reserved for a divine identity, what that tells us is that Paul sees Jesus' "Lordship" the same as YHVH's -- IOW, Jesus' divinity is seen by Paul as the same as YHVH's. Otherwise, Paul would have used a different term.

Paul certainly acknowledges Jesus lordship. However, what do you think Paul means, and the implications of what he writes at 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

How is it that Jesus' divinity & lordship is the same as Jehovah's when Jesus subjects himself to Jehovah, but as vs 26 states: it is evident that this does not include the One (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him?

 

[sojourner]

Paul certainly acknowledges Jesus lordship. However, what do you think Paul means, and the implications of what he writes at 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

How is it that Jesus' divinity & lordship is the same as Jehovah's when Jesus subjects himself to Jehovah, but as vs 26 states: it is evident that this does not include the One (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him?

Here's your referenced text in a MUCH more reliable translation:

24 Then comes the end,[a] when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[b]has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him.

IOW: God the Father isn't subject to the Son. The text doesn't support your argument.

Yes, Paul acknowledges Jesus' Lordship in exactly the same way that YVHV is Lord. It's a title.

 

[Redemptionsong]

.kaleb, I quote you: 'I would say that the "oneness" Jehovah has with Jesus is this: • oneness in thought, will, unity, desire, intention, truth, justice, love.'

Would you say, therefore, that the spirit in Jesus Christ is the same SPIRIT as his Father?

 

[Redemptionsong]

moorea944, I think you're a bit hasty in your dismissal of this passage.

Abraham remained standing before the LORD (Yahweh, Adonai - Genesis 18:22 and 18:33), whom you say was just another angel, or messenger. Yet the other two angels are not addressed as Yahweh/Adonai but as Lords/Adon (Genesis 19:2). Even my Jewish Study Bible makes a clear distinction between the two. And, anyhow, where else do you find an angel being addressed as LORD (Yahweh) and talked to as a figure with the authority to 'sweep away the innocent along with the guilty'?

If God has such little difficulty appearing as an angel-man, he'll have no more difficulty appearing as the Christ-man! And I don't mean that flippantly.