Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The law doesn't force the school board to act; on the contrary, it requires them to bend, and only when necessary.

The law doesn't force anything to happen, at this school board or others.

Well, no. A right on the part of one person implies an obligation on the part of everyone else. Assuming you're talking about the "fundamental freedoms" provision of the Charter, it states the following:

Fundamental freedoms
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

If you're arguing that "freedom of conscience and religion" implies that Valley Park Middle School must provide a venue for a prayer service and excuse children from class in order to accommodate the religious needs of Muslim students, then it implies this at every other school where Muslim students have a similar need.

In reality, though, I don't believe it can be reasonably maintained that the prayer service was a Charter requirement. The previous arrangement (where students skipped class to go to a local mosque) allowed the student to exercise any actual religious right that they might have. The change to the current arrangement was apparently at the behest of the school board, who wanted it for their own reasons. And while I do see how a school would have an interest in ensuring that students are in class as much as possible, it's not anything that's required by the Charter.

OTOH, I'm familiar enough with the Charter to know that it also includes an "Equality Rights" provision:

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

... and the Board's current arrangement, where Muslim students' religious practices are accommodated while Hindu, Jewish and Christian students' practices are not despite requests to that effect, definitely violates the Charter's equality requirements.

 

[croak]

When I was in grade 7 and 8 (i.e. like in this school) at another Toronto school, my classes were organized into 1-hour periods. According to what I've gathered in all this, the prayer service lasts 20 to 30 minutes, and the time it occurs varies throughout the year. It seems unlikely to me that it would line up exactly with the school schedule.

However, if you happen to have actual information on the class schedule of Valley Park Middle School in Toronto that shows that your supposition is correct, please share.


Well, yes. No matter how quiet or not the students are when they enter or leave, they've missed instructional time. They have missed out on being taught whatever the subject matter of the day is, which the teacher will have to take into account somehow... most likely by having to take more time later to go over the material that the Muslim students missed.annot menstruate in anonymity. Would it be wrong for the other students or the teachers call attention to which girls are menstruating and which ones aren't?

I think I'll post some snippets from a link I posted earlier:

For three years, hundreds of students have been praying in the cafeteria at Valley Park Middle School during their lunch hour. The school doesn’t run or pay for the service.

...

TDSB director of education Chris Spence said the decision to hold the prayer sessions was made in consultation with the school community, and no one from the community has complained.

The service is operated by members of the Valley Park community, and was un-opposed by parents of other students at the school before Ron Banerjee, claiming to represent a group called the Canadian Hindu Advocacy, began complaining earlier this year.

...

80 per cent of Valley Park students are Muslim, and the school began the Friday services to prevent students from missing classes to pray at a nearby mosque.

Groups protest Muslim prayers at Toronto public school - CityNews

Also, I found this article: Some parents approve of public school prayers | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

 

[croak]

[youtube]30asz_WnWsE[/youtube]
‪Brave Muslim Girl Takes A Stand at TDSB Friday Prayer Protest‬‏ - YouTube
Pretty harsh. She barely got a chance to speak.

 

[Sahar]

I think that there's always going to be some coercion in any practice that's rooted in a command from God: "You can do what you want, but God really wants you to do _____"? That's not entirely a free choice.

This is a reply to what question exactly? :sarcastic

Let me ask you again:
Do you think the female Muslim students who wear hijab are necessarily forced? Do you think the school shouldn't allow Muslim girls to wear headscarves?

Waiting for your reply....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a reply to what question exactly? :sarcastic

It's a reply to your insinuation that, AFAICT, if a person participates in an activity without a gun to their head, that we don't need to worry about whether this person is being treated fairly in that activity.

Let me ask you again:
Do you think the female Muslim students who wear hijab are necessarily forced? Do you think the school shouldn't allow Muslim girls to wear headscarves?

Waiting for your reply....

I think that all students should be free to wear whatever they want, subject to some fairly basic rules (no T-shirts with profanity, for instance). This would include the freedom of Muslim girls to wear headscarves.

Now how is this relevant?

 

[Sahar]

I think that all students should be free to wear whatever they want, subject to some fairly basic rules (no T-shirts with profanity, for instance). This would include the freedom of Muslim girls to wear headscarves.

Now how is this relevant?

Hijab in this case is not allowing a discrimination based on gender? Muslim Girls are religiously required to cover extra-parts e.g hair while Muslim boys are not. What do you think?

Do you think the wearing of hijab is different from performing the prayer in regard to the "forcing" aspect that you repeatedly mentioned in your arguments?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hijab in this case is not allowing a discrimination based on gender? Muslim Girls are religiously required to cover extra-parts e.g hair while Muslim boys are not. What do you think?

In the case of the hijab, the motivation doesn't matter. The right to wear it is just one expression of a larger right to wear what one wants. If a Muslim girl chooses to use this right to wear a hijab, it's no different than another student using it to wear a t-shirt of his favorite band. In both cases, people are expressing themselves as they see fit.

Do you think the wearing of hijab is different from performing the prayer in regard to the "forcing" aspect that you repeatedly mentioned in your arguments?

Yes. In allowing a person to wear a hijab or not, allowing (note: but not requiring) the hijab is the option that allows the most personal freedom. In the case of the prayer service, the option that allows the most personal freedom is to let each student stand wherever they want.

 

[beenie]

In the case of the hijab, the motivation doesn't matter. The right to wear it is just one expression of a larger right to wear what one wants. If a Muslim girl chooses to use this right to wear a hijab, it's no different than another student using it to wear a t-shirt of his favorite band. In both cases, people are expressing themselves as they see fit.


Yes. In allowing a person to wear a hijab or not, allowing (note: but not requiring) the hijab is the option that allows the most personal freedom. In the case of the prayer service, the option that allows the most personal freedom is to let each student stand wherever they want.

To the bolded: who better to ask than the Muslim girls themselves? If you really think these girls can't decide for themselves, ask their mothers...run a poll...whatever. If the girls/women vote they prefer to be separate, is that acceptable to you?

Keep in mind I'm still troubled with the whole prayer in school issue.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

[/b]

To the bolded: who better to ask than the Muslim girls themselves? If you really think these girls can't decide for themselves, ask their mothers...run a poll...whatever. If the girls/women vote they prefer to be separate, is that acceptable to you?

Well, no.

If all the girls really do want to stay in the back and all the boys want to stay in the front, then if you allow them to stand wherever they want, it'll happen anyway. If you're right, the rule isn't needed; you don't need to tell someone to do something that they're going to do anyhow.

Also, you're talking about making a group decision a proxy for the individual decisions of each member of the group. If the decision is less than unanimous, what then? Say 90% of the girls want to stay in the back; does this mean that the remaining 10% should have to go along with this?

But all in all, I'd still have a problem with the prayer service, because even if the gender issues were completely dealt with, we'd still be dealing with the problem that this privilege is being extended to only one religion to the exclusion of all others.

Keep in mind I'm still troubled with the whole prayer in school issue.

As am I... and this adds another layer to the problem: even if we could properly address the gender issues, and even if every other religious group was afforded the same level of accommodation, we'd still be left with the question of whether it's right for a public school to be engaging in this sort of activity at all.

 

[beenie]

Well, no.

If all the girls really do want to stay in the back and all the boys want to stay in the front, then if you allow them to stand wherever they want, it'll happen anyway. If you're right, the rule isn't needed; you don't need to tell someone to do something that they're going to do anyhow.

I come from a multi-cultural, multi-religious background, raised in the Midwest. In all my years, I've noticed that for the most part , people tend to go where they're comfortable. In Muslim culture, for prayer, the vast majority of them are comfortable separated. I'm not sure if that comes from the generational "that's how it's always been" mantra or what, but tradition is a tough thing to reform...and sometimes it doesn't need reform.

Also, you're talking about making a group decision a proxy for the individual decisions of each member of the group. If the decision is less than unanimous, what then? Say 90% of the girls want to stay in the back; does this mean that the remaining 10% should have to go along with this?

Unfortunately, that's how most decisions are reached, by the majority. The rest just deal. If a girl feels so strongly about this, I suppose she could join the boys or not pray at all. Maybe if one does, others will too. Interesting to note, there is no segregation at hajj (impossible feat, but people just have to deal there too). However, the Muslims were able to decide that all by themselves.

But all in all, I'd still have a problem with the prayer service, because even if the gender issues were completely dealt with, we'd still be dealing with the problem that this privilege is being extended to only one religion to the exclusion of all others.

We completely agree here.

As am I... and this adds another layer to the problem: even if we could properly address the gender issues, and even if every other religious group was afforded the same level of accommodation, we'd still be left with the question of whether it's right for a public school to be engaging in this sort of activity at all.

They won't be able to address the gender issue to everyone's satisfaction, and they cannot accommodate all religious practices either without it becoming a circus. This is why I don't like the idea at all, because then it's become a religious school, not a public one.

 

[beenie]

That's debatable. You may mean Muslim religious obligation, and I can't speak to that. But the obligation I was under while growing up pretty much equated to psychological forcing. Fear of burning in Hell forever combined with various rewards for complying with religious obligations cowed me into towing the line at 12 and 13. And 14 and 18. I was terrified of Hell. Of course I would do (and I did) whatever a religious leader told me to do to get closer to God. If he said (and my youth pastor did), attend daily prayer if your school allows it, I would have jumped to it.

I understand defending your deeply revered beliefs. But I think in other contexts some of the comments in this thread would be ridiculous. I don't claim to understand gender segregation during prayer after reading this thread. I've read some Islam sites to better understand it, and frankly, my opinion is the same as Christian-based gender dictates: sexism. Time-honored, tradition-based, and well-intentioned as a means to honor God sexism, but still sexism.

I can see your point here as well. Being indoctrinated with the fear of torment/hell, etc. can definitely feel like force, even if it's not the proverbial "gun to the head".

 

[Draka]

[youtube]30asz_WnWsE[/youtube]
‪Brave Muslim Girl Takes A Stand at TDSB Friday Prayer Protest‬‏ - YouTube
Pretty harsh. She barely got a chance to speak.

That's just ridiculous. those people should be ashamed of themselves ganging up on the girl like that. Aren't they supposed to be adults? Totally berating this young girl. Shameful.

Also, the whole tirade about not supposed to be able to pray in school, that's BS. The teachers or other school administration are not supposed to lead prayers in school. They are not supposed to even insinuate that the students, as a whole, should pray. HOWEVER, students have every right to gather and pray if they want to. There are Christian bible study groups and clubs at public schools. They are considered extra curricular activities. Some extra-curricular activities have allowances to miss certain class time as well. Now, as long as the school itself doesn't put out some rule that says that no other students may create or have their own extra-curricular religious activity then there is no reason to prevent the Muslims from having theirs. As long as the school employees aren't requiring any of the students to do anything religiously, then they are not breaking any laws by merely allowing students to pray as long as they are allowing every religious group that equal chance.

It appears that this has gone on like this without issue for about 3 years until one particular person threw a fit about it and drug media into it. Like someone up and deciding to poke a harmonious bee hive just to stir up trouble where there wasn't any. Just because they didn't like the look of the particular hive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As long as the school employees aren't requiring any of the students to do anything religiously, then they are not breaking any laws by merely allowing students to pray as long as they are allowing every religious group that equal chance.

Actually, they are breaking the law.

I did some more digging into the Education Act and found the section in the regulations that spells out the requirements for religious services in public schools:

(3) A board may permit a person to conduct religious exercises or to provide instruction that includes indoctrination in a particular religion or religious belief in a school if,
(a) the exercises are not conducted or the instruction is not provided by or under the auspices of the board;
(b) the exercises are conducted or the instruction is provided on a school day at a time that is before or after the school’s instructional program, or on a day that is not a school day;
(c) no person is required by the board to attend the exercises or instruction; and
(d) the board provides space for the exercises or instruction on the same basis as it provides space for other community activities. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 298, s. 29 (3).
(4) A board that permits religious exercises or instruction under subsection (3) shall consider on an equitable basis all requests to conduct religious exercises or to provide instruction under subsection (3). R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 298, s. 29 (4).

Education Act - R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 298

In this case:

- the school potentially fails clause (a), since (according to one article I've read, at least), the rotating imams that visit the school are chosen jointly by the principal and a representative of the parents.

- it definitely fails clause (b), since the prayers occur during class time.

- it does pass clause (c).

- it fails clause (d). Based on my experience with the public school system here, the board likely does not provide permits for community access to schools during class hours.

- from the outcry from other religous groups complaining that they haven't been accommodated by the TDSB, it sounds like the board may have failed to adhere to subsection (4).

So... short version: the prayer service is illegal.

 

[Willamena]

Well, no. A right on the part of one person implies an obligation on the part of everyone else. Assuming you're talking about the "fundamental freedoms" provision of the Charter, it states the following:

No, I disagree: a right implies respect, that's all.

People have the right to congregate to practice their religion; that right is guaranteed under the Charter. No other person is obligated in any way by those who exercise this right. There is, however, an obligation on the part of the government to uphold the Charter.

If you're arguing that "freedom of conscience and religion" implies that Valley Park Middle School must provide a venue for a prayer service and excuse children from class in order to accommodate the religious needs of Muslim students, then it implies this at every other school where Muslim students have a similar need.

If other communities ask for the same, sure, and approach their school boards, their school boards would probably comply. I'm only arguing that this school board has drawn on its obligation to the Charter to justify providing a venue for a prayer session for students.

Not that justification is needed, but some people raised a stink.

In reality, though, I don't believe it can be reasonably maintained that the prayer service was a Charter requirement.

I agree. That would be silly.

The previous arrangement (where students skipped class to go to a local mosque) allowed the student to exercise any actual religious right that they might have.

It's not relevant, though. What's relevant is that the parents and the school board wanted the kids to stay in school and not miss classes. The students can exercise their rights anywhere in Canada.

OTOH, I'm familiar enough with the Charter to know that it also includes an "Equality Rights" provision:

Right. And where two clauses apply, it's not improper to choose one to uphold when the other isn't really at issue.

The school board isn't segregating students in prayer.

... and the Board's current arrangement, where Muslim students' religious practices are accommodated while Hindu, Jewish and Christian students' practices are not despite requests to that effect, definitely violates the Charter's equality requirements.

Did the Hindu, Jewish, and Christian communities approach the school board and ask for accommodation to be arranged?
Edit: Do you have a link?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I disagree: a right implies respect, that's all.

That's impossible. The law can't dictate people's attitudes; it dictates their actions.

People have the right to congregate to practice their religion; that right is guaranteed under the Charter. No other person is obligated in any way by those who exercise this right. There is, however, an obligation on the part of the government to uphold the Charter.

The right of freedom of religion implies that every other person has the obligation not to interfere with a person's expression of religion, and that the government has the responsibility to ensure that this occurs.

If you have a right but the people around you don't have the obligation to not infringe upon that right, then you don't actually have the right.

If other communities ask for the same, sure, and approach their school boards, their school boards would probably comply. I'm only arguing that this school board has drawn on its obligation to the Charter to justify providing a venue for a prayer session for students.

And I'm arguing that it has no such obligation. The Charter right to freedom of religion doesn't require a school board to set up a chapel on school grounds for any religious group that comes knocking.

OTOH, the Charter most certainly does require that a right or benefit extended by the government (i.e. the school and/or board) to one religion must be extended on an equal basis to all religions.

I agree. That would be silly.

Isn't that what you just argued? In case you forgot:

I'm only arguing that this school board has drawn on its obligation to the Charter to justify providing a venue for a prayer session for students.

It's not relevant, though. What's relevant is that the parents and the school board wanted the kids to stay in school and not miss classes. The students can exercise their rights anywhere in Canada.

It's entirely relevant. If the students' Charter rights were being met before the decision was made to provide the space, then it doesn't work to argue that providing the space was necessary to meet the requirements of the Charter.

Right. And where two clauses apply, it's not improper to choose one to uphold when the other isn't really at issue.

The school board isn't segregating students in prayer.

The school board is extending a privilege to Muslim students that it isn't extending to other students.

I'm old enough to remember when we still had the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of every school day. There was a transition period when, much like this Muslim prayer, students could choose to participate or not. The courts ruled that this was unacceptable because students could still be pressured to participate... so the Christian prayer was removed from schools, despite the objection of many Christian students and parents. Despite this, the decision was made that organized Christian prayers were inappropriate in a school setting.

Now we have a situation where the board has decided that organized Muslim prayers are appropriate. How is this not unequal treatment on the basis of religion?

Did the Hindu, Jewish, and Christian communities approach the school board and ask for accommodation to be arranged?
Edit: Do you have a link?

From what I understand, they have asked for this. I'm having trouble finding a link - the school board uses the term "accommodation" for its process of assigning students to schools, so those links are burying any relevant ones.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In the case of the hijab, the motivation doesn't matter. The right to wear it is just one expression of a larger right to wear what one wants.

Who are you to dictate which motivation does or does not matter -- or, for that matter, what the wearing of the hijab 'expresses'?

One expression is crystal clear: you express nothing but the most chauvinist condescension toward the Muslim girls in prayer. You may have convinced yourself that you're championing the rights of those too stupid or brainwashed to stand up for themselves - or dismissing the rights of those too stupid or brainwashed to deserve respect - but the result is that you align yourself with bigots and do little but reinforce them. Clearly 'pluralism' has found no place in your anti-Muslim ideology.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Who are you to dictate which motivation does or does not matter -- or, for that matter, what the wearing of the hijab 'expresses'?

One expression is crystal clear: you express nothing but the most chauvinist condescension toward the Muslim girls in prayer. You may have convinced yourself that you're championing the rights of those too stupid or brainwashed to stand up for themselves - or dismissing the rights of those too stupid or brainwashed to deserve respect - but the result is that you align yourself with bigots and do little but reinforce them. Clearly 'pluralism' has found no place in your anti-Muslim ideology.

Get off your high horse, Jay. If you can't see a problem with an illegal, offensive misuse of a secular public institution, then maybe the problem is your own myopia.

You talk about chauvinism? You have displayed nothing but condescension and derision in this thread for views that differ from your own. Your hypocrisy here is breathtaking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Another thing, Jay: you've once again twisted my argument. I haven't wailed about how the Muslim girls were too stupid to realize that they were being made inferior. All of my discussion of the gender discrimination here has been in the context of the double standard created between Muslim and non-Muslim students.

The board's policies, which are in effect for every other school activity, would normally prohibit this sort of gender discrimination. They aren't being applied in this one isolated case. No matter how many Muslim women come forward to say that they don't mind, it's still a double standard: one set of rules for the Muslim prayer service, another set of rules for everyone else.

It doesn't matter who thinks the rule is unnecessary. The fact of the matter is that it's on the books and not likely to be repealed any time soon. This means that the only way that a gender-segregated event could be accommodated in the school is by ignoring this rule, creating a double standard between the event and anything else.

And it doesn't really address the problem of the double standard to argue "oh, well I don't mind if that rule is broken."

 

[Willamena]

That's impossible. The law can't dictate people's attitudes; it dictates their actions.

A right isn't a law --perhaps that's the source of confusion. A right is just something that's right, in regards to what it is to be human. The guarantee of rights in the Charter dictate law because they are legislated: as a Charter, each level of government is obligated to uphold the lot -- to uphold the guarantee of "the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

The right of freedom of religion implies that every other person has the obligation not to interfere with a person's expression of religion, and that the government has the responsibility to ensure that this occurs.

Obligating everyone to a right would violate another right, the right to personal thought, opinion and expression, and the Charter specifically says that one guarantee will not violate another.

The government has the obligation via these guarantees that they don't violate these rights --they're not a person, they don't have personal thought, opinion or freedom of expression. That's why the Charter specifically applies to the government, so that no one person (personhood) rules the government.

If you have a right but the people around you don't have the obligation to not infringe upon that right, then you don't actually have the right.

This is important: infringement upon a right is not a right. And it's not spelled out in the Charter, and it's not guaranteed there.

And you always have a right. No one can take it away from you.

And I'm arguing that it has no such obligation. The Charter right to freedom of religion doesn't require a school board to set up a chapel on school grounds for any religious group that comes knocking.

OTOH, the Charter most certainly does require that a right or benefit extended by the government (i.e. the school and/or board) to one religion must be extended on an equal basis to all religions.

It's "obligation" is not to set up, conduct or supervise a prayer group, right. That's not what I'm saying. And that's not what they're doing.

The government doesn't extend rights. Gawd, what country do you live in? The government, via the Charter, guarantees, i.e. protects, our rights. Our rights.

We have the right to practice our freedom of religion. The Charter guarantees that, so the school board (the government) provides at our behest. It's all about us, we drive this situation, not the government.

Isn't that what you just argued? In case you forgot:

I said it correctly.

It's entirely relevant. If the students' Charter rights were being met before the decision was made to provide the space, then it doesn't work to argue that providing the space was necessary to meet the requirements of the Charter.

The student's Charter rights were being met, because they could practice their religion. The school board offering space at the school is a convenience at the request of the parents/community. The Charter is flagged as justification because people in Toronto seem to unanimously equate "public" with "secular".

The school board is extending a privilege to Muslim students that it isn't extending to other students.

I'm old enough to remember when we still had the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of every school day. There was a transition period when, much like this Muslim prayer, students could choose to participate or not. The courts ruled that this was unacceptable because students could still be pressured to participate... so the Christian prayer was removed from schools, despite the objection of many Christian students and parents. Despite this, the decision was made that organized Christian prayers were inappropriate in a school setting.

Now we have a situation where the board has decided that organized Muslim prayers are appropriate. How is this not unequal treatment on the basis of religion?

Requiring students to recite a prayer is silly. Allowing them to is right. The school running a prayer session is silly. The school allowing a group to come in and run their own prayers at the request of the community is right.

At very least, not wrong.

From what I understand, they have asked for this. I'm having trouble finding a link - the school board uses the term "accommodation" for its process of assigning students to schools, so those links are burying any relevant ones.

"Accommodation" can specifically mean providing space. Perhaps some other search criteria would be better.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Another thing, Jay: you've once again twisted my argument. I haven't wailed about how the Muslim girls were too stupid to realize that they were being made inferior. All of my discussion of the gender discrimination here has been in the context of the double standard created between Muslim and non-Muslim students.

If I ever suggested that as your argument I misspoke. I don't believe it's your argument. I believe it's your attitude, and your attitude reeks with condescension.