Have the end times arrived?

[Clara Tea]

What bias?

One can use that label anyway they choose, but choosing to look at our mistakes is not a biased action in itself, in fact the opposite.

Regards Tony

If our goal is to hide our mistakes, then looking for mistakes might be a bias.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I could easily say the same about "your interpretation" especially since none of those things happened while the disciples were still alive.
But that's true, we don't know if Jesus ever said any of that.

Yes, it was aa failed prophecy. Those happen extremely frequently in the Bible. In fact I do not think that there is one prophecy in the Bible that has a clear due date that has not failed. It is why writers of prophecy that know what they are doing avoid such dates. They know what will happen.

When one reads it in context it is a failed prophecy. That causes Christian apologists (AKA Liars For Jesus) to spin their wheels like crazy to come up with an alternative explanation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What bias?

One can use that label anyway they choose, but choosing to look at our mistakes is not a biased action in itself, in fact the opposite.

Regards Tony

The bias is in how the test is set up and counted. It is far to easy to count only the hits and ignore the misses. You need a proper test where you make a clear statement of:

"My faith is wrong if ________."

You would have to fill in the blanks yourself. Finding something after the fact is rarely a proper test.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If our goal is to hide our mistakes, then looking for mistakes might be a bias.

Let's take one obvious example.

Is it Bias to admit there is an issue with child molestation in religious institutions?

Or is it just the plain right thing to do, to investigate and acknowledge there is an issue, as only then can it be rectified?

Do we not do that, as we may be seen as bias?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, it was a failed prophecy. Those happen extremely frequently in the Bible. In fact I do not think that there is one prophecy in the Bible that has a clear due date that has not failed.

Only according to your interpretation is it a failed prophecy. According to my interpretation it is a fulfilled prophecy.

Prophecies are always fulfilled eventually but there are usually no due dates on them, but if there is a due date we have to figure out what that date is by reaching the scriptures.

Daniel Chapter 12

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The bias is in how the test is set up and counted. It is far to easy to count only the hits and ignore the misses. You need a proper test where you make a clear statement of:

"My faith is wrong if ________."

You would have to fill in the blanks yourself. Finding something after the fact is rarely a proper test.

I see the whole point I was discussing was learning from mistakes. The mistakes become as obvious as the noon day sun, no bias is needed, unless one still wants to hide the mistakes.

So sorry, what the heck has that got to do with bias tests?

I am a black and white person my wife tells me.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Only according to your interpretation is it a failed prophecy. According to my interpretation it is a fulfilled prophecy.

Prophecies are always fulfilled eventually but there are usually no due dates on them, but if there is a due date we have to figure out what that date is by reaching the scriptures.

Daniel Chapter 12

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

No, this has been explained to you countless times.

When you do not understand you should try to learn.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I see the whole point I was discussing was learning from mistakes. The mistakes become as obvious as the noon day sun, no bias is needed, unless one still wants to hide the mistakes.

So sorry, what the heck has that got to do with bias tests?

I am a black and white person my wife tells me.

Regards Tony

Mistakes can be made, but people can still derive incorrect assumptions based upon them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Prophecies are always fulfilled eventually but there are usually no due dates on them, but if there is a due date we have to figure out what that date is by reaching the scriptures.

Daniel Chapter 12

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

So have you had a chance to look at my post #100? To review it...

I don't understand the problem. It tells you when to start counting the days. But Baha'is find better times to start counting... Here's the link.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

So, from the time of what? It tells us the taking away of the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination. Again, when did that happen?

1. 1,290 Days
In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad

But no mention of the daily sacrifice or the abomination. Abdul Baha' starts counting the years, the lunar years, from when Muhammad declared he was a prophet.

2. 1,335 Days
Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira)... The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.

Again, the years, this time solar years, are counted from the Hegira. What does that have to do with..."And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days"?

It maketh no sense. and with the 1335 days turned into years, Baha'is come up with 1957 and 1963? So Daniel over 2000 years ago was told "blessed" is he that waits for 1957 and/or 1963?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, this has been explained to you countless times.

When you do not understand you should try to learn.

No, this has been explained to you countless times.

When you do not understand you should try to learn.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, this has been explained to you countless times.

When you do not understand you should try to learn.

Did you happen to read post #100 where I linked to Abdul Baha's supposed "fulfillment" of the 1290 and 1335 days? I don't know how dependable these prophecies are, but if Abdul Baha, who I think is considered infallible when he says things like this, ignores the very obvious starting time for the prophecy and makes it start with Muhammad, then how trustworthy is the Baha'i Faith? That is very troubling. But what is worse is what the answers are going to be to defend Abdul Baha's interpretation. One of which might be something like, "Well, he's infallible, therefore he knows when it began and ended. We're going with his interpretation."

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, this has been explained to you countless times.

When you do not understand you should try to learn.

Yes, it has. You simply did not understand the explanations at best. I got tired of doing so in other threads and eventually others got tired of explaining to you and correcting you. An inability to understand does not mean that an event did not happen.

You could not even deal with the list of reasonable demands for a "true prophecy".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did you happen to read post #100 where I linked to Abdul Baha's supposed "fulfillment" of the 1290 and 1335 days? I don't know how dependable these prophecies are, but if Abdul Baha, who I think is considered infallible when he says things like this, ignores the very obvious starting time for the prophecy and makes it start with Muhammad, then how trustworthy is the Baha'i Faith? That is very troubling. But what is worse is what the answers are going to be to defend Abdul Baha's interpretation. One of which might be something like, "Well, he's infallible, therefore he knows when it began and ended. We're going with his interpretation."

We have all tried. circular reasoning of the sort that you mentioned is all that we get in response. I gave a list for reasonable rules for a reliable prophecy. Another poster gave a slightly different list. They were not all that different. She won't even discuss that. Probably because she can see that they are reasonable and she has not answer for them. Just pretend that they do not exist.

 

[sun rise]

I also believe that we are living in an end times. Why would it be the end times seen in Hinduism and Buddhism and Native American prophecy but not the end times seen in the Abrahamic religions? I mean it makes sense to me that the end times is the end times for all religions, which is not the end of the world but rather the end of an old age and the beginning of a new age.

I meant all religions.

 

[sun rise]

Sounds like the idea of Indigo Children of the 70's and the "Age of Aquarius".

It's just the same old drivel, contemplating the ending world, instead of working to make it a better world.

Where did I say that people can't help bring in the new world?

 

[Trailblazer]

So have you had a chance to look at my post #100? To review it...

Thanks for the reminder of the post number because I forgot to save it. I will go back and get it and put it with this post so when I can look at them together.

Today was a wash because it was the second day I did not get enough sleep so I was no good for doing any serious thinking.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, this has been explained to you countless times.

When you do not understand you should try to learn.

The born-again Christians say the same thing. They go by, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." It would be nice if the Baha'i Faith had reasonable answers, but they don't. So, rather then making up stuff and using "logic", the best answer a Baha'i could give is, "I don't know. There is nothing in the Baha'i writings about this."

So still a simple question... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." When do we start counting the time? From when the daily sacrifice and the abomination thing or from Muhammad's proclamation for one of them and from the Hegira for the other?

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you happen to read post #100 where I linked to Abdul Baha's supposed "fulfillment" of the 1290 and 1335 days? I don't know how dependable these prophecies are, but if Abdul Baha, who I think is considered infallible when he says things like this, ignores the very obvious starting time for the prophecy and makes it start with Muhammad, then how trustworthy is the Baha'i Faith? That is very troubling. But what is worse is what the answers are going to be to defend Abdul Baha's interpretation. One of which might be something like, "Well, he's infallible, therefore he knows when it began and ended. We're going with his interpretation."

Some Baha'is might believe that Abdu'l-Baha is infallible but I don't believe that.
What do you think is the very obvious starting time for the prophecy?
I'll look at your other posts later but since I am on the topic, Can you tell me specifically what you believe he got wrong?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The born-again Christians say the same thing. They go by, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." It would be nice if the Baha'i Faith had reasonable answers, but they don't. So, rather then making up stuff and using "logic", the best answer a Baha'i could give is, "I don't know. There is nothing in the Baha'i writings about this."

So still a simple question... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." When do we start counting the time? From when the daily sacrifice and the abomination thing or from Muhammad's proclamation for one of them and from the Hegira for the other?

Whichever date makes the prophecy look fulfilled?

This is a failed prophecy before it even begins since it is so poorly defined. For a prophecy to actually be a prophecy it needs to be clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is a failed prophecy before it even begins since it is so poorly defined. For a prophecy to actually be a prophecy it needs to be clear.

No, you just want it to be clear. A prophecy does not have to be clear to you in order to be a prophecy, nor does it have to meet your criteria. Again, that is just what you want, but we don't always get what we want.

prophecy

1. the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
2., something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.
3. a divinely inspired utterance or revelation: oracular prophecies.
4. the action, function, or faculty of a prophet.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/prophecy

Definition of prophecy

1 : an inspired utterance of a prophet
2 : the function or vocation of a prophet specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose
3 : a prediction of something to come

Definition of PROPHECY