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Goloka/Vrindavan

DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
This questions arose in my mind the other night. While not a Vaishnava myself I associate with plenty of Vaishnavs and some of ther belief has washed down on me.

Now, if we go back to Vrindavan to eternally serve Radhakrishn... and everyone eventually goes back... does Radhakrishna simply expand to allow us to serve Them directly? Or are there just millions in Vrindavan who never see Their face or even Their footsteps?

How is this dealt with?
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Vaikuntha/Goloka is really well and truly beyond our experience. To clarify, Vaikuntha is outside the material world, beyond all lokas, not a leaf falls there, immaculately transcendental, pure sattva, what ever occurs there, we will be filled of eternal bliss. All your questions will be answered once you attain moksh :D
 

DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
Vaikuntha/Goloka is really well and truly beyond our experience. To clarify, Vaikuntha is outside the material world, beyond all lokas, not a leaf falls there, immaculately transcendental, pure sattva, what ever occurs there, we will be filled of eternal bliss. All your questions will be answered once you attain moksh :D

Yes, but it will go over in mine again and again. It worries me. I am heading to the Iskcon mandir now to see what they say!
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, but it will go over in mine again and again. It worries me. I am heading to the Iskcon mandir now to see what they say!
I hope they don't make it out to be like a Hindu version of Disneyland.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Now, if we go back to Vrindavan to eternally serve Radhakrishn... and everyone eventually goes back... does Radhakrishna simply expand to allow us to serve Them directly? Or are there just millions in Vrindavan who never see Their face or even Their footsteps? How is this dealt with?
Yes, their mansion/property is the largest in the universe, bigger than the holdings of John Malone or Ted Turner. So, they don't have to expand it. It is devotion for which Srimati Radharani and Lord Krishna reveal themselves. Just being in Vrindavana is a help, but the crucial input is devotion. With devotion, any place can be Vrindavana in the world. :D
 

DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
Why does it worry you, Devi?

Who knows? It refuses to vacate my mind no matter how hard I try to convince it. Bugger off, you stupid doubts, I tell it and they just laughed at me instead.

What does Brahman focus on? If Ishwara is all there is isn't that lonely? Perhaps that is why Ishwara is eternally divided into two; conscioness and energy? I don't and I don't have anyone to ask but these are important questions to me that persist.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Who knows? It refuses to vacate my mind no matter how hard I try to convince it. Bugger off, you stupid doubts, I tell it and they just laughed at me instead.

What does Brahman focus on? If Ishwara is all there is isn't that lonely? Perhaps that is why Ishwara is eternally divided into two; conscioness and energy? I don't and I don't have anyone to ask but these are important questions to me that persist.
Ishwara lonely? :D Of course not! He is eternally blissful :) Narayana is the antaryamin of every living creature! And how could he be so with Ananta Shesha and Sri Lakshmi at His side? :D
 

DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
If He has Lakshmi and Ananda Shesha with Him that means He expanded into them. Therefore He has given himself company. It is very perplexing for me. My mind runs around in circles.

Is there a deity Ishwara worships above Himself? If so how can we say Ishwara is supreme? And who the hell do I ask the questions to? Because they won't leave me alone!
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
If He has Lakshmi and Ananda Shesha with Him that means He expanded into them. Therefore He has given himself company. It is very perplexing for me. My mind runs around in circles.

Is there a deity Ishwara worships above Himself? If so how can we say Ishwara is supreme? And who the hell do I ask the questions to? Because they won't leave me alone!
Good questions!

Lakshmi and Ananta Shesha are jivas, albeit nitya suris, (one who were never in the cycle of samsara) not expansions of Him. Vaikuntha has always existed, so they always existed. A bit mindboggling :D

Narayana has said many times that His devotees are more worshippable than Him. But in the direction you are going, no, he is the giver of moksha, there is no highest. You can ask me questions if you'd like, i'll try my best! Honest!
 

DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
@Terese ji I am sure you could try but my doubts are large and they make me forlorn.

What need does Narayana have to surround Itself with souls, even if they are liberated? Why even create them in the first place? What seperates them from Ishwara? Why are they seperate? If Ishwara is gold and we are gold flakes what forced the seperation and how can we return?
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
@Terese ji I am sure you could try but my doubts are large and they make me forlorn.

What need does Narayana have to surround Itself with souls, even if they are liberated? Why even create them in the first place? What seperates them from Ishwara? Why are they seperate? If Ishwara is gold and we are gold flakes what forced the seperation and how can we return?
The atma is a spark of Narayana, and is indestructible. It was never created, nor can it be destroyed. All the muktas who reached Vaikuntha will want to see their dear Lord so close, so unclouded by maya and/or any material nature. Narayana doesn't have to surround Himself with souls, but He does so out of mercy, out of deep compassion. Just like Devi knows whats best for you, Narayana knows what's best for me, He will never leave, he's always there. Why create them? Why, to act out His joyous lila of course! Life is a drama, Himself an actor too ;)

Oneness, eternal difference, eternal oneness and difference, regardless of this, Narayana is our antaryamin, our controller, sometimes we feel like we are close to Him, and sometimes we feel like we are far away. It doesn't matter. To return, love like you've never loved before! :D

I suppose I will not ask any Vaishnavas my question. I am far too intimidated.
Devi ji, please don't be intimidated, i worry for you. Asking questions is in our nature :)
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
A very sweet question.

In Vrndavana, we eternally serve Radha Krsna in a specific group or camp, as per our serving capacity. That is why Vraja Bhakti is known as Raganuga Bhakti. Raganuga Bhakti means that which follows in the footsteps of the Ragatmikas (the eternally liberated like Radharani, Baladeva etc).

When we enter in Vraja, we enter into a specific group under a specific leader to serve Radha Krsna. For example, if you are in Sakhya rasa ( mood of friendship with Krsna) the you will serve under one of the 12 cowherd friends of Krsna Balarama. If you are in Vatsalya rasa (parental mood), you will serve the Lord as one of the friends of Yashoda maa. Madhurya rasa is little complicated. There are first primary Sakhis like Radha, Candravali etc, and you may serve under them as a Gopi. Under Radharani there are 8 Sakhis (headed by Lalita, Vishaka etc) and each of these 8 Sakhis have 8 manjaris and each of these 8 manajaris have 8 and so on. I will give you an example.

Kamala Manjari, who is eternally dear to Lord Radha Krsna, serves under Her praneshwari Ananga Manjari. In turn Ananga Manjari (who is the leader of the Manjaris in Radhakund) serves Rupa Manjari, who in turn serves Lalita who finally serves Radha and Krsna. In Vraja there are millions and billions (a great deal) of souls who serve but each soul is content in their Seva and they always have a chance to directly serve Radha Krsna. The amazing thing is, the manjaris get even more happiness then Radha and Krna themselves. See, the pleasure that Krsna gets from interaction with His devotees, Radharani gets an even higher bliss. And the Manjaris experience a bliss even higher then Radha and Krsna. This is known as Parampara. As the mercy descends it becomes greater and greater.


That being said, every soul has a chance to serve and see Radha Krsna. In Vraja even the dust spec is concious and are able to see at every moment what Radha and Krishna are doing. The Lord is so merciful that He personally accepts the service of each and every devotee.

Now you asked the question, why does the Lord expand in so many forms and perform pastimes with Himself.

The reply is this. Rasa or divine nectar is the essence of all existence. The highest Truth is not simply eternity or consciousness, but bliss. In order to taste higher and higher limits of Bliss and allow His devotees to do the Same, Lord Krsna expands in forms. For Bhakti there must be two never one, so that is why the Sumpreme Truth splits into Radha and Krsna in order to enjoy these pastimes. Just like we jivas desire to enjoy and have fun (this is our innate desire) this desire is also found in Ishwara who also desires to enjoy with His devotees. In such interactions, both Bhagavan and His devotees are pleased as they reach higher and higher limits of ecstasy. That is why the Upanishads say raso vai sah (He Brahman is embodiment of rasa).

The Jivas are simply manifestions of the Lords Jiva Shakti. They are eternal, and their sole purpose is the engage in devotional service to the Lord. The Lord is the only enjoyer, while we are the enjoyed. The jivas are also eternally distinct from God, because they are minute while God is massive. God possesses all spiritual qualities in full, but Jivas only have them in tiny quantity. It is possible for the Jivas to merge with God, but that is inferior to Bhakti, because it is only Bhakti which can satisfy them. Just like the perfection of an instrument lies its proper use, the perfection of the Jivas lies in sweet Bhakti to Lord Hari. Another thing to note, is the pastimes happening in Vraja/Vaikuntha are eternal. Lakshmi Devi always existed, Balarama Ji always existed. There was never a time when they did not exist, the concept can be quite mindboggling actually. Trying to apply our intellect to the sweet pastimes of Lord Hari will leave our intellect in pieces.


Tldr: bliss is the highest principle and for this reason Goloka is the way it is. Goloka is eternal, and never a created, as so the Jivas.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Perhaps that is why Ishwara is eternally divided into two; conscioness and energy?

What does Brahman focus on? If Ishwara is all there is isn't that lonely? I don't and I don't have anyone to ask but these are important questions to me that persist.
I will take up this question first (though it is partly in fun :). I cannot separate fun from life). Yes, Pursha and Prakriti, Brahman and Shakti/Maya, the cause and effect, never separated, like the hearts of two lovers, two but even then one.

Brahman just exists and does nothing else, Maya does the rest. Do not anthropomorphize Brahman. It is not that.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I am sure you could try but my doubts are large and they make me forlorn.

What need does Narayana have to surround Itself with souls, even if they are liberated? Why even create them in the first place? What seperates them from Ishwara? Why are they seperate? If Ishwara is gold and we are gold flakes what forced the seperation and how can we return?
Well, I am an advaitist. Why forlorn? You are it. You are the whole (Purnamidam). Souls, separation, but it is Maya's doing. Tear off the veil. It is you everywhere. In each human, each animal, each leaf, each grain of sand, each drop of water, each gust of wind. There is none other than you. Separation is an illusion, human perception. See how the blow up of a star sends gravity waves all through the universe making the earth bend. Where is the separation?
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"This very Self (atman) is the Lord and King of all beings. As all the spokes are fastened to the hub and the rim of a wheel, so to one's Self (atman) are fastened all beings, all gods, all the worlds, all the breaths, and all these bodies."
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Gargi and King Ajatasatru dialogue

Sayak said, "I would consider this the key statement of all Vedantic Hinduism. Now some focus on the Self as Atman, other as Brahman and others as the Lord of Beings (Prajapati/Isvara). Those distinctions differentiate the various yogic and vedantic schools of Hinduism."
Atman and Brahman in the Upanisads
 
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