God is morally neutral

[ppp]

Our universe is governed by law and chance, brother.

Our universe isn't governed, mi baratna. It simply is.

If you are sincerely interested in the topic ('the problem of evil' in our Created, evolving universe), I would recommend you start with the writings of John Polkinghorne. Francis Collins too, though he is not quite as incisive as Polkinghorne. But his perspective as a biologist is worth checking out (biologos).

I am already familiar with theodicy and its various arguments and their shortcomings - from the "freewill" perspectives to the "social problem". In any case, I suspect that you don't understand the arguments on the subject well enough to support your position and are giving me homework to hide that fact. Thanks, but no.

Also, Collins' opinion doesn't rate. Save as a biologist discussing biology, of course.

 

[Regiomontanus]

You did not answer either question....

Correct

 

[Regiomontanus]

Our universe isn't governed, mi baratna. It simply is.


I am already familiar with theodicy and its various arguments and their shortcomings - from the "freewill" perspectives to the "social problem". In any case, I suspect that you don't understand the arguments on the subject well enough to support your position and are giving me homework to hide that fact. Thanks, but no.

Also, Collins' opinion doesn't rate. Save as a biologist discussing biology, of course.

OK

 

[McBell]

Correct

It would be helpful if you pointed out the specific post.
you have several posts in reply to Joe W.....

 

[ppp]

Correct

Which did not answer the question, either. Do you personally have the capacity to support any of the claims that you are making?

 

[Regiomontanus]

It would be helpful if you pointed out the specific post.
you have several posts in reply to Joe W.....

As I said above, if one is genuinely interested in the topic there is a lot of good writing out there - a mountain of it. Life to too short for me to tutor prople in theology, on a discussion board no less.You can lead a horse to water but...


Peace

 

[McBell]

As I said above, if one is genuinely interested in the topic there is a lot of good writing out there - a mountain of it. Life to too short for me to tutor prople in theology, on a discussion board no less.

ROTFLMAO

You seem to think far to highly of yourself.
To think that I was asking for a complete stranger who refuses to support his claims to tutor anyone, let alone myself.

 

[Brian2]

What else is the creator the source of?
And whose idea of "good" are you talking about?

Nevermind that you are merely assuming a creator to begin with.

There are no such absolutes as good and neutral and evil without first assuming a creator God who can tell us.
Any person who says God is evil if it exists therefore I do not believe in a God has first to assume the existence of a God in order to say that, otherwise all that person can say is that they do not like all the things that happen in the world therefore God does not exist.

 

[McBell]

There are no such absolutes as good and neutral and evil without first assuming a creator God who can tell us.
Any person who says God is evil if it exists therefore I do not believe in a God has first to assume the existence of a God in order to say that, otherwise all that person can say is that they do not like all the things that happen in the world therefore God does not exist.

You are going to have to reword that for it makes no sense to me as written.

 

[ppp]

There are no such absolutes as good and neutral and evil without first assuming a creator God who can tell us.

There would no such absolutes with a creator god, either. Just another subject with subjective opinions.

Any person who says God is evil if it exists therefore I do not believe in a God...

Since nobody says that except theists such as yourself - either in honest ignorance, or trying to deceive - that whole line of objection doesn't really matter. I truly hope that it's the honest ignorance in your case. If so, the actual position is that if evil exist then a creator god cannot exist that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. The problem of evil only applies to a creator god with all three of those characteristics.

 

[Brian2]

You are going to have to reword that for it makes no sense to me as written.

It is no good saying God does not exist if you have to use categories/standards which can only exist if God exists.

 

[McBell]

It is no good saying God does not exist if you have to use categories/standards which can only exist if God exists.

who does that?
I mean, other than theists...

 

[Brian2]

There would no such absolutes with a creator god, either. Just another subject with subjective opinions.

There is at least a possibility that a creator would know about good and evil. The Bible God claims to.
But it sounds as if you are agreeing with me, that all we can say is that we do or do not like things. We cannot say they are good or evil.

Since nobody says that except theists such as yourself - either in honest ignorance, or trying to deceive - that whole line of objection doesn't really matter. I truly hope that it's the honest ignorance in your case. If so, the actual position is that if evil exist then a creator god cannot exist that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. The problem of evil only applies to a creator god with all three of those characteristics.

That omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent thing may be some sort of formal argument but the truth is that people just point to pain and suffering of the innocent and say "I can't believe in a God who allows that to happen." Of course the assumption of the omnis may be present without the people knowing it.
I can feel for people who say such things but logically the omni argument is not good and is self defeating.

 

[McBell]

We cannot say they are good or evil.

Why not?
If you claim that the subjectivity surrounding the words is why, then how does that same logic not apply to the word "God"?

 

[Brian2]

who does that?
I mean, other than theists...

Anyone who says that a God if it exists is evil so they cannot believe in it. (because good and evil exist in any absolute way only if there is actually absolute good and evil which a God can define for us or tell us about).

 

[Brian2]

Why not?
If you claim that the subjectivity surrounding the words is why, then how does that same logic not apply to the word "God"?

A God who has revealed Himself to us is less that subjective. But that is probably beside the point. Whether God is subjective or objective to us makes no difference to the subjectivity of 'good' and 'evil'. In fact if God is subjective to you then that probably confirms your agreement on the subjectivity of good and evil to you.

 

[McBell]

Anyone who says that a God if it exists is evil so they cannot believe in it. (because good and evil exist in any absolute way only if there is actually absolute good and evil which a God can define for us or tell us about).

And yet, I do not recall even once seeing or hearing that claim outside a theist making the claim that people make the claim.
Are you able to present even one quote where someone actually makes said claim?

 

[McBell]

A God who has revealed Himself to us is less that subjective. But that is probably beside the point. Whether God is subjective or objective to us makes no difference to the subjectivity of 'good' and 'evil'. In fact if God is subjective to you then that probably confirms your agreement on the subjectivity of good and evil to you.

And yet there are thousands, if not millions, of people who make that very claim, and yet god is still the most subjective thing on the planet..

I agree that good, bad, evil, and even god are all subjective.
I am curious as to why you think that we cannot say they are good or evil because the words are subjective, but you can call god god even though the word god is subjective.
Seems a double standard to me.

 

[Brian2]

And yet, I do not recall even once seeing or hearing that claim outside a theist making the claim that people make the claim.
Are you able to present even one quote where someone actually makes said claim?

The Omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent argument Joe W presents in post 30. Even if the argument is not put in the way you want, it is saying the same thing.

Jow W quote: >>> If so, the actual position is that if evil exist then a creator god cannot exist that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. The problem of evil only applies to a creator god with all three of those characteristics.<<<

This is an argument against the existence of the Bible God amongst probably others because it is then assumed that evil does exist.

 

[ppp]

There is at least a possibility that a creator would know about good and evil.

You have no way of knowing that. That is just a thing that you imagine and then say is true.

The Bible God claims to.

That is false. People claim that.

But it sounds as if you are agreeing with me, that all we can say is that we do or do not like things. We cannot say they are good or evil.

I am saying that if your god existed, that he would be included in your "we". Just another guy.

That omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent thing may be some sort of formal argument but the truth is that people just point to pain and suffering of the innocent and say "I can't believe in a God who allows that to happen." Of course the assumption of the omnis may be present without the people knowing it.

If you can find someone who is saying, "I can't believe in a God who allows that to happen." then go argue that with that person. If you cannot deal with what I am saying, then there is no point in continuing.

I can feel for people who say such things but logically the omni argument is not good and is self defeating.

Well, go ahead then. Defeat it.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” --Epicurus