Muffled
Jesus in me
It would be interesting to know the Hebrew. In English there can be multiple meanings. However from the context it would inidicate the child is God with us.
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God became a man!
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Phin
Member
Well Jesus literally was God with us.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Is ‘Literally’ greater or lesser than ‘Actually’!
Was Jesus ‘Actually’ Almighty God in a human body… Or, was Jesus a human being who was ENDOWED with the power of God, as we know at his baptism at the river Jordan:
- ‘You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—
- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.’ (Acts 10:37-38)
Phin
Member
I see you're argument Soapy but how do you deal with passages like "and the Word was God"?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
‘The word was God’ is far too often misinterpreted. The trinity church advocates that the word, ‘word’, be capitalised (‘Word’) and be classed as a Definite Article (‘The Word’) so that they can call IT a Person…. to wit,’The Son’ or ‘Jesus Christ’…
Of course, there is not capitalisation that made ‘the word’ into ‘The Word’, but it suites trinity to believe it is so, so that they can claim that ‘Jesus Christ’ was the one who ‘Created all things - in the beginning’.
But the scriptures, nowhere, with validity, says that anyone other than almighty God: the Father, created all things… indeed, in the false verses in Corinthians etc, even claim that the world was created FOR HIM (for the Son)!
(I’m not finished yet but I gotta go right now!)
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 4:6
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
How do you interpret Ephesians 4:6?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
This is the second part of my response…
The term, ‘God’ is both an adjective and a title.
The Adjective describes a person or thing which is any and/or all of (List not limited):
- The Powerful …
- The Glorious …
- The highest …
- The greatest …
- The Rule …
- The Majestic …
- The final Judge
- The Wondrous …
- The Mighty …
- The Supreme …
- ……etc.
The ellipsis (…) indicates here that each term is to be followed by A CONTEXT. An example would be, ‘The Principal is the greatest [authority] IN HIS SCHOOL’.
The other use of ‘God’ is as a TITLE. Anyone or anything who/that is regarded as such a DEITY, a visible or invisible RULE MAKER AND GIVER, one who is TO BE WORSHIPPED as a DEITY, is termed, ‘A GOD’.
In the Old Testament, the DEITY that led Abraham away from his pagan roots, tested the faith of Abraham but did not give him a NAME… neither did Abraham ask the deity for His name. Abraham simply referred to his new-found ‘God’ as ‘Lord’:
- ‘I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name, [YHWH], I did not make myself fully known to them.’ (Exo 6:3)
But Abrahams SINGLE new-found God turned out to claim that He was ‘The only God, and the creator and ruler over ALL THINGS’. This is a massive departure from every known religious belief ever known before. And this ONE GOD eventually GAVE HIMSELF A NAME to the off-spring of Abraham ONLY BECAUSE these descendants were getting ENVIOUS that while they were in Egypt they were subjected to many pagan festivals, ceremonies, worship events, in which each pagan God was deified BY THEIR OWN NAMES… This is when MOSES asked God for His name because the children of Israel descended down from Abraham would demand a name to distinguish their pagan [slave master] God from their own.
However, it seems that today many people do not acknowledge the difference between a name and a title… And because the Jews and Christian only believe in one God they feel they this one God does not need a name - and just call Him ‘God’… a Title.
Worse than that, they have FORGOTTEN or HAVE NOT EVER KNOWN that the term ‘God’ is ALSO an ADJECTIVE (no matter how much I show them!!)
So, your question: ‘The word was God’…
Do you see it now?:
- ‘The word of THE [Jewish/Christian] DEITY was an ALMIGHTY word’!!!
- ‘The utterance of God [deity title] was God [superlative adjective]’
Moreover, if ‘Jesus’ is the ‘WORD’ of God, what is ‘The Father’? But surely, Jesus BEING TAUGHT BY THE GOD [of the Jews] and Jesus SPEAKING what the Father has taught him, means that Jesus CANNOT BE ‘GOD’ who TAUGHT HIM? Who teaches ALMIGHTY GOD?
Now, don’t expect any even vaguely valid responses from any trinitarian… there is no justification for a deception in the true faith and belief: God, the Father, is the only true God… though there may be many who are called ‘God’, and indeed there are, for even holy angels and Godly men are called so, there is but only one TRUE GOD, the Father. Jesus Christ is classed as ‘Lord’, which means, ‘Master’… ‘A God’ is greater than ‘A Master’, for indeed there can be many ‘Masters’ even of the same theme but there can be only ONE GOD of any theme!!!
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
By denying the God of the Jews a personal NAME and just calling Him ‘God’, it opens the door to the belief that this deity God does not have a NAME… which is what Trinitarians thrive on in their idolatry of a three person God.
It would be undeniable that a three person God would be called by ONE NAME, and indeed the trinity God IS NOT a ONE NAME GOD… trinity claims He has MANY NAMES…
Now contrast that claim with the Old Testament in which GOD CLAIMED A NAME (‘YHWH’) AS HIS ‘NAME FOR ALL ETERNITY’.
And trinity New Testament Christians say (God lied because he doesn’t have a name!!??) God’s name is ‘JESUS’ and that Gods name is ‘Holy Spirit’ and that God’s name is ‘Father’…
‘Father’? Isn’t ‘Father’ a TITLE??
Is ‘Holy Spirit’ a NAME?
The only NAME they have for THEIR God is ‘Jesus’ (unless you include ‘SON’.. which is a TITLE!)
Confused? You should be —- because it’s a nonsense…!
Satan says to them “Destroy God’s name” and you not only destroy belief in THE GOD WHOSE NAME IS YHWH but you can replace Him by one that I shall give to you… a three headed God… as the pagans believe!! And I shall also grant you the means and arguments to maintain belief in this three-headed God!!!’
All of the "grammer rules" arguments against the deity of Jesus Christ are some of the most paper-thin arguments I've ever seen in many, many places on the internet.
Read the entire Bible and decide if Jesus is God. It is very clear that He is God, He is the Creator and John 1:1, 3,14 DO make that very clear, but they are not the sole source of that evidence in Scripture.
Though it is often declared that we cannot make an entire doctrine around a single verse, or word, in the Bible, those who wish to discredit Truth do it over and over just hoping nobody will notice.
The Bible speaks for itself and if one verse, or word, appears to discredit all of the rest of the running theme of Scripture, common sense dictates that it is a misinterpretation.
God's spirit entered into Mary's womb and egg and what was born was God in a man's body. The Bible tells us that He lowered Himself, humbled Himself and experienced all the vulnerability, weakness and temptations to sin exactly as mankind does, but He did not sin even once.
God had to be fully man in order to accomplish all that He did in order to break the curse, conquer death and blaze a trail for all believers-to-come to follow. It was a requirement of the curse for a fully human man to endure and obey the 10 Commandments to the point of death in order to break the spell.
That is exactly what God did and it is why He deserves all glory, honor and worship.
Hallelujah!
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
D
And then raised Himself from the dead… after praying to himself saying:
Why was ‘Almighty God’ worried about whether Almighty God could raise up Almighty God?
Your belief appears strange to me - unbelievable, in fact…. Untrue, for sure!!
Do you mean that Almighty God, a Spirit Being, ruler of Heaven and earth,, glorious God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, put off his greatness and majestic Godship and became a human subject in the created world, lower than the angels that he created, and subjected himself to humiliation, disbelief, punishment, and worse of all, DEATH…
And then raised Himself from the dead… after praying to himself saying:
- ‘Father (??), if there could be another way…!’
Why was ‘Almighty God’ worried about whether Almighty God could raise up Almighty God?
Your belief appears strange to me - unbelievable, in fact…. Untrue, for sure!!
You asked a question.
You got an answer.
You didn't like it.
Go figure.
God experienced every single vulnerability of human man while in the flesh. Fear, temptations, etc. The man, Jesus Christ experienced Fear just as we do. He prayed to the source of His existence, the same soul as Him "in Spirit", and the Father (Source) responded. God is a spirit, that is correct. And that Spirit is eternal which means He exists "outside of time and space". That means the Father (the Source of all life) existed outside of space and time (which He created) at the same time as He existed in the physical/material body Jesus Christ.
Remember God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere at once. His presence fills Heaven and Earth.
Jeremiah 23:24
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Amazing… God experienced fear of his own creation. Yet God says to fear no man!!!
And GOD cannot be TEMPTED…. With what can anyone tempt God (perhaps you don’t know the definition of temptation)
And since God exists in and out of space and time there would be no need for Him to come into his creation!!
Colt
Well-Known Member
The Creator Son came into his own creation. Jesus NEVER said that he was tempted.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Do you really think God would create all of this without putting his hand in it in someway? I think not. He gave one man the power to hold existence in his soul in my opinion.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Why?
Colt
Well-Known Member
The successful incarnation as a human was required by his Father to be given unquestioned sovereignty. “All power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
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AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Soapy, what you have written above is absolute nonsense. The trinitarian belief does not make any of the claims you have said above.
Frankly, the entire idea that you reason non trinitarian beliefs from the above is absurd.
I would urge you to understand the facts about Arianism. Read the historical account of Arianism before you start coming up with inaccurate statements like your post above.
Start off with some elementary history...
Arianism, in Christianity, the Christological (concerning the doctrine of Christ) position that Jesus, as the Son of God, was created by God. It was proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius and was popular throughout much of the Eastern and Western Roman empires, even after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea (325).
In 381 the second ecumenical council met at Constantinople. Arianism was proscribed [forbidden by law], and a statement of faith, the Nicene Creed, was approved.
That did not, however, end Arianism as a viable force in the empire. It maintained favour among some groups, most notably some of the Germanic tribes, to the end of the 7th century. The Polish and Transylvanian Socinians of the 16th and 17th centuries propounded Christological arguments that were similar to those of Arius and his followers. Encyclopedia Brittanica - Arianism
The truth about Arianism is that it was not until well after the death of the apostle John that anyone attempted to make the claim that Christ was not equal with the father. The apostles all clearly believed that Christ was equal with the father...and a classic proof of this is found in the gospel of John 20: 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
It would be better to use appropriate biblical referencing when attempting to support doctrine instead of just pulling up "wives tail" nonsense off the top of ones head and trying to use secular reasoning to explain biblical principles.
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Sure He does, but all men experience fear.
Are you not familiar with Jesus' experience in the Garden of Gethsemane where He was sweating great drops of blood out of absolute terror for what He supernaturally knew was about to happen to Him?
Uhh ... again, I get the impression you aren't very familiar with the Scriptures. Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness and His temptations were specially crafted by the devil to tempt God Almighty, not a mortal man.
Can you turn a stone into bread?
Of course not, but God could in an instant.
The devil knew he wasn't tempting a mortal man.
Also, Paul tells us in Philippians that Jesus was in the form of God and was equal to God, made Himself of no reputation and into the likeness of men; that He humbled Himself to become obedient unto death.
Phil. 2:5-8
And Hebrews tells us that Jesus was "tempted" in every way that mortal man is but did not sin.
Heb. 4:14-16
Is that your human opinion?
You know this because you know all about what it's like to exist in and out of space and time?
God came into the flesh for a very important mission - which He accomplished thoroughly and gracefully.
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Colt
Well-Known Member
You won't find the words of Jesus himself claiming that the devil or Satan took him flying through the air to mountains and pinnacles, tempting him with things that already belonged to the Son of God! Nobody knew what Jesus was doing during the 40 days ALONE in the "wilderness"!!! The story was added later by speculators.