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Ghadir Khumm

Talmai

Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
 

interminable

منتظر
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
Something that is common for kings and even individuals is that when they see the signs of death they appoint a successor for themselves to prevent future conflicts and to protect their achievements
Shia says God already asked people in his book to be friend of Ali because Ali was prophet's cousin and his daughter's husband
Look
الشورى
ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ
It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative. (23)

But prophet had fear about declaring Ali's guardianship simply because in crowd were some people that would never accept his guardianship and prophet didn't want to destroy all of his achievement during 23 years but god told him

المائده
حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةُ وَالدَّمُ وَلَحْمُ الْخِنزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ وَالْمُنْخَنِقَةُ وَالْمَوْقُوذَةُ وَالْمُتَرَدِّيَةُ وَالنَّطِيحَةُ وَمَا أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ وَمَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ وَأَن تَسْتَقْسِمُوا بِالْأَزْلَامِ ذَٰلِكُمْ فِسْقٌ الْيَوْمَ يَئِسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن دِينِكُمْ فَلَا تَخْشَوْهُمْ وَاخْشَوْنِ الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ فِي مَخْمَصَةٍ غَيْرَ مُتَجَانِفٍ لِّإِثْمٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah, and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (3)


Besides notice that isn't a little weird for a prophet to stop a huge crowd and say somebody is my friend!!!!!!!
What's the use of that?????
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
salam.
authority of imam ali is very clear according to the holy quran.
we all muslims have very authentic narrations in the shia and also sunni book about the virtue of ahl al-bayt.

for example: whats your idea about hadith manzelat? thaqalayn? and very other authentic and mutevater hadithes?
whats your idea about verse 3, 54 and 67 of sura maedeh?
This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.
O Messenger! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.
ghadir cerman is accepted and mutevater between all muslim people.whats your idea about verse of mubaheleh?
i mean verse 61 of surah al imran.
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
Background of Ghadir
The “Farewell pilgrimage” ceremony was completed in the last month of the 10th A.H. The Muslims learned pilgrimage activities from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.), and then, Prophet (s.a.w.a.) decided to leave Mecca to Medina. He instructed for departure. When the caravan reached an area called “Rabegh”1, which is three miles far from Juhfah 2, Gabriel, the inspiration angel, revealed in a point called “Ghadir Khom”, and addressed the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) with the following verse:
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). (sura al-Maidah, 5:67)
The tone of verse indicates that God has assigned Prophet (s.a.w.a.) a critical mission, which equals with his prophetic mission, and caused despair of the Islam enemies. Is any critical mission more important than appointment of ‘Ali (a.s.) to the rank of caliphate, guardianship and succession in front of more than hundred thousand people?!
Therefore, he ordered to stop. Those who were ahead of caravan, stopped, and those who were at the back of caravan, joined them. At noon, it was very hot, and a group of people put a part of their mantle on their head and a part under their foot. A shading was made for the Prophet through casting a veil on the tree. He sat on the high point, formed by the camel saddle, and he delivered a sermon with a loud voice, the extract of which follows.
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) sermon in Ghadir Khom
Praise belongs to God. We seek help from Him, and believe in Him, and trust in Him. We turn to Him for our evil and unrighteous deeds. The Lord, save whom there is no guide. Whoever is guided by Him, there will be no deviator for him. I testify that there is no God, save Him, and Mohammad is his servant and prophet.
O people! Soon, I will die, and leave you. I am responsible and you too!
Then he added: What do you think about me!? (Have I fulfilled my responsibility against you?)
The crowd all said: We testify that you have accomplished your prophetic mission, and endeavored. God may grant you good rewards.
The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said: Do you testify that the Lord of world is one, and Mohammad is His servant and prophet, and there is no doubt about paradise, hell, the everlasting life in the other world?
All replied: Yes, that is right. We testify!
He added: O people, I leave among you two precious things. I shall see how you treat with my two heritage?!
One stood up and asked loudly: What are these two precious things?!
Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said: One is divine book, one side of which is in the powerful hand of God, and the other is with you. And the next is my Household. God has informed me that these two will never separate!
Beware, O People, do not surpass Quran and my Household. Do not fail to follow both of them. Otherwise, you will perish!
Then, he took ‘Ali’s hand (a.s.), and raised it too high that the armpit of both of them was seen by the people, and introduced him to the people.
He asked: Who is more authorized and rightful to the believers than themselves?
All replied: God and His messenger are more aware.
The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said: God is my master and I am the master of believers, and I am more authorized and rightful than themselves! Beware, O People!
من کنت مولاه فهذا علی مولاه
Whoever I am his master and authority, this ‘Ali will be his master and authority. 3
اللهم وال من والاه و عاد من عاداه و احب من احبه و ابغض من ابغضه و انصر من نصره و اخذل من خذله و ادر الحق معه حیث دار.
O God, be friend with whoever is friend with ‘Ali, and be enemy with whoever is an enemy of ‘Ali. Help whoever helps him, and leave whoever leaves him, make him the criteria of right!4
If you study the above sermon5 carefully, there are quick evidences for Imamate of ‘Ali (a.s.) in every phrase of it. (
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
To whom does the word master and authority (مولی) apply?
The main issue here is the interpretation of concept of master, that while being clear and obvious, it has been unfairly judged. Considering the aforementioned explanation, there would remain no doubt and uncertainty about the authenticity of the tradition, the excuse seekers created doubt and uncertainty about the meaning and concept of tradition, particularly the word
,مولا .مولا,
in this tradition, and rather in most cases, has only one meaning, that is, priority and qualification, and in other words, guardianship. Quran has applied the word, مولا, for the concept of guardian and authority.
The word, مولا, has been applied in 18 Quranic verses, 10 of which is concerned with God. It goes without saying that it indicates His authority and guardianship, and only in some few cases, it has been applied for friendship.
Therefore, there shall be no doubt that the word, مولا, primarily means the superior and authority. In Ghadir tradition too, it has the same meaning. In addition, it is accompanied with so many evidences and proofs, clearly proving that it means authority and guardianship.
The evidences certifying this claim
Even supposing that the term, مولا, has lexically various meanings, but there are many evidences and proofs in the Ghadir tradition and this great historical event, removing any ambiguity and conclusive for all.
First evidence
As we said, on the day of Ghadir historical event, Hassan Ibn Thabet, Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) poet, asked permission from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.), and versified Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) utterance. This eloquent and fluent poet, having command on Arabic language, applied Imam and guide for the word,مولی, and said:
فقال له: قم یا علی فاننی
رضیتک من بعدی اماماَ و هادی
He said ‘Ali: Get up, I selected you for succession and guidance of people after me.18
As it is clear, he had not understood the word, مولی, in the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) utterance, anything save the rank of Imamate, leadership and guardianship of the nation, while he knew well Arabic terminology and was one of the eloquent Arab poets.
Not only Hassan, the great Arab poet, has understood this concept from the word, مولی, but also other great Islamic poets, most of which have been among the famous Arab poets and literati, and some of them have been the great professors in this language, have understood the same concept which Hassan did, that is, Imamate and leadership of nation!
Second evidence
Imam ‘Ali (a.s.) in his poems writing to Moavieh regarding Ghadir tradition says:
و اوجب لی ولایته علیکم
رسول الله یوم غدیر خم
God’s Prophet (s.a.w.a.) enjoined my guardianship for you on the day of Ghadir Khom.19
Who can interpret the tradition and explain for us what the God’s Prophet (s.a.w.a.) meant by, ولایت, on the Ghadir day, better than Imam? Does this interpretation show not that as all present in the Ghadir event believe, it does not imply anything save social leadership and headship?
Third evidence
Before stating the phrase,
من کنت مولاه
...
the Prophet asked:
الست اولی بکم من انفسکم؟
Am I not more authorized and rightful to you than yourselves?
In the above phrase, Prophet (s.a.w.a.) has applied
اولی به نفس
and has asked all people for confession to his authority over them. Then, he immediately said:
من کنت مولاه فهذا علی مولاه
Whoever I am his master and authority, this ‘Ali will be his master and authority.
What is the purpose of conjunction in these two phrases? Is it anything save proving the same rank of Prophet (s.a.w.a.) as per the text of Quran, for ‘Ali (a.s.)? The only difference is that he is the prophet and ‘Ali is Imam. On this account, it is interpreted as:
Whoever I am his master and authority, this ‘Ali will be his master and authority.20
If the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) meant something else, there was no reason for asking people’s confession for his mastership and authority. It is very unfair if one neglects this message of Prophet (s.a.w.a.), and does not take into account such obvious evidence.
Fourth evidence
The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) asked for people’s confession to three basic Islamic principles and said:
الستم تشهدون ان لا اله الا الله و ان محمداَ عبده و رسوله و ان الجنة حق و النار حق؟
Do you testify that the Lord of world is one, and Mohammad is His servant and prophet, and there is no doubt about paradise, hell?
What did he mean for asking the confession? Does he want to make people’s mind ready to consider the rank and position, which he will later prove for ‘Ali (a.s.), as the previous tenets, and know that confession to his caliphate and guardianship is the same as triple tenets of religion, to which all confess? If the word,
مولی
, meant friend and helper, the sentences lose their relation, and the utterances is not firm anymore. Don’t you think so?
Fifth evidence
At the beginning of his sermon, the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) talks about his death and says:
انی أوشک أن ادعی فاجیب
Soon, I will die.21
The phrase indicates that the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) is going to make a decision for the period after himself, and fill the vacancy caused by his demise. What can fill such vacancy, is appointment of a successor, worthy and informed to manage the affairs after him, and nothing else.
If we interpret guardianship to something save caliphate, the logical relation of the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) utterances is clearly disturbed, while he is one of the most eloquent and fluent orators. What other clearer evidence could be found for guardianship?
Sixth evidence
من کنت مولاه ...
the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said:
الله اکبر علی اکمال الدین و اتمام النعمه و رضی الرب برسالتی و الولایه لعلی من بعدی
“Allahu Akbar”, I thank God for perfecting His religion, and completing His Blessing, and approving my mission as well as guardianship and succession of ‘Ali after me.
If he meant friendship and assistance of one of the Muslims, how the God’s religion was perfected, and His blessing was completed through friendship with ‘Ali (a.s.)? More obviously, he says: God approved my mission and guardianship of ‘Ali (a.s.) after me.22 Are these not clear evidences for the concept of caliphate?
Seventh evidence
What evidence is more explanatory than congratulation of Umar and Abu Bakr, and a large number of the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) companions to ‘Ali (a.s.) lasting till the time of sunset prayer, while Umar and Abu Bakr were the first of those who congratulated Imam as follows:
هنیئاَ لک یا علی بن ابی طالب اصبحت و أمسیت مولای و مولی کل مؤمن و مؤمنه
Congratulations to you, O ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib, you wake up and go to sleep, while you are my guardian, and the guardian of any believer man and woman!23
What position did ‘Ali (a.s.) achieve on that day to be worthy of such congratulation? Is any rank, save leadership and caliphate of the Islamic nation that was not officially declared till then, worthy of such congratulation? Friendship and kindness was not a new issue.
Eighth evidence
If friendship of ‘Ali (a.s.) was meant, it was not necessary to express it in such a hot weather (stopping one hundred thousand caravan, and asking the people to sit on the hot sands in the desert for delivering a lecture)!
Quran had already called all the society’s individuals as brothers, and it says:
إِنَّمَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ إِخْوَةٌ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَ أَخَوَيْكُمْ ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ
The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy. (Surah al-Hujurat, 49:10)
Had Quran not already introduced the believers as friends? ‘Ali (a.s.) too was one of the believers, and there was no need for declaring his friendship. Even if it was expedient to declare his friendship, these preparations and hard conditions were not required. It was possible to be declared in Medina.
Surely, the issue has been more important, requiring such exceptional preparations, which were unprecedented in the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) life, and it was not repeated anymore.
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
The eternity of Ghadir event
The Wise God has willed the Ghadir historical event to remain in all ages and centuries, as a live history, attracting the hearts and minds, and the Islamic writers to discuss it in the commentary, history, tradition and theology books, and the religious orators to deliver lectures about it, and call it one of the undeniable virtues of Imam ‘Ali (a.s.).
Not only the orators and lecturers, but also the poets too have been suggested by this event, and have lighted their literary talent through thinking and reflection on it, as well as increasing their loyalty to the owner of guardianship. They have left the best poems in different forms and various languages. (The Late Allamah Amini has mentioned an important part of Ghadir poems in every century of the Islamic history, while describing the attributes of the poets in the eleven volumes of Al-Ghadir book narrated from popular Islamic resources).
In other words, no other historical event in the world, has been noted so much by different classes, including traditionist, commentator, theologian, philosopher, orator, poet, historian and biographer.
One of the reasons for eternity of this tradition, is revelation of two Quranic verses6 in respect to this event, and since Quran is eternal and everlasting, this historical event too will be never forgotten.
It is noteworthy that referring to the history clarifies that eighteenth of Dhul-hijjah has been known among Muslims as the Eid Ghadir, so that Ibn Khalkan says about Mostalli Ibn Mostansar: The people paid homage to him on eighteenth of Dhul-hijjah, Eid Ghadir, 487 A.H.7, and he writes about Mostansar Bellah Abidi: He passed away twelve nights before the end of Dhul-hijjah, 487 A.H. It is the same night of eighteenth of Dhul-hijjah, the night of Eid Ghadir.8
It is interesting that Aboureyhan Birouni, in Assarol Baqieh, has called Eid Ghadir one of the feasts, which all Muslims celebrated it.9
Not only Ibn Khalkan and Aboureyhan Birouni have called it an Eid, but also Thalebi, one of the other famous Sunnite scholars has called Ghadir one of the popular nights among the Islamic nation.10
This Islamic Eid dates back to the time of Prophet (s.a.w.a.), because on that day, the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) instructed the immigrants and helpers, and rather his wives, to go to ‘Ali (a.s.) and congratulate to him for guardianship and Imamate.
Zeid Ibn Arqam says: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Talha and Zubayr from among the immigrants were the first who paid homage to ‘Ali (a.s.), but the congratulation and paying homage ceremonies was continued till sunset.11
110 people of tradition narrators
For showing importance of this historical event, it is enough to say that one hundred ten of the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) companions have narrated it.12
Of course, this does not mean that only these from among the host have narrated the event. Rather, we mean that in the books of Sunnite scholars, the names of one hundred ten people are mentioned.
In the second Islamic century, called the age of followers, eighty nine of them have narrated this tradition.
The narrators of Ghadir tradition, in the next centuries too are among the Sunnite scholars and leaders. Three hundred sixty of them have collected this tradition in their books, and a large group have affirmed its validity and authenticity.
A group of them have not contended with narration of the tradition, and have also written separate books with regards to its documents and contents.
It is strange that the great Islamic historian, Tabari, has composed a book, الولایة فی طرق حدیث الغدیر, and has narrated the tradition based on seventy five chains of transmission from the Prophet!
Ibn Oqdeh Koufi has narrated it from one hundred five people in the, ولایت, essay.
Abu Bakr Mohammad Ibn Umar Baghdadi, known as Jamani, has narrated it through twenty five chains of transmission.
Sunnite Celebrated People
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal Sheybani
Ibn Hajar Asqalani
Jazari Shafei
Abu Saeid Sajestani
Amir Mohammad Yamani
Nessaei
Abolalae Hamedani
and Abolerfan Haban
have narrated the tradition through numerous chains of transmission.13
Shiite scholars too have composed valuable books regarding this historical event, and have referred to the Sunnite important references, the most comprehensive of which is the historical book, الغدیر, composed by the late Ayatullah Amini. (This book has been the main reference in composition of this article).
However, after appointment of ‘Ali (a.s.) as his successor, the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said:
O People, just now the inspiration angel revealed to me and brought this verse:
…الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا…
This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (Surah al-Maidah, 5:3)
Then the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said “Allahu Akbar” and added:
I thank God for perfecting His religion, and completing His Blessing, and approving my mission and guardianship and succession of ‘Ali after me.
Then, Prophet (s.a.w.a.) came down, and said ‘Ali (a.s.):
Sit under a tent so that the prominent Islamic chiefs and headmen pay homage and congratulate to you.
First of all, Umar and Abu Bakr congratulated to ‘Ali (a.s.) and called him their master!
Hassan Ibn Thabet availed himself of the opportunity and asking permission from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.), versified some poems, and read them before the Prophet (s.a.w.a.). Hereunder we will mention only two couplets of it:
فقال له قم یا علی فاننی
رضیتک من بعدی اماماَ و هادی
فمن کنت مولاه فهذا ولیه
فکونوا له اتباع صدق موالی
He said ‘Ali: Get up, I selected you for succession and guidance of people after me.
Whoever I am his master and authority, this ‘Ali will be his master and authority, and you loving him heartily, follow him.14
This tradition has been one of the greatest evidences for excellence of Imam ‘Ali (a.s.) over all the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) companions.
Even, in the caliphate council meeting, hold after demise of the second caliph15, as well as during the caliphate of Uthman, and his own caliphate, Imam ‘Ali (a.s.) has argued it.16
Moreover, the great personalities, like Hazrat Zahra (a.s.) have repeatedly reasoned the tradition against the opponents and deniers of the high rank of ‘Ali (a.s.).17
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
Now let’s judge!
With such clear evidences, isn’t it strange if someone doubt about the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) purpose, that is, caliphate and leadership of Muslims? How do those who doubt, persuade their conscience and what’s their reply to God on the day of resurrection?
Verily, if all Muslims start a new study and review on the Ghadir tradition, free from any prejudice, they will reach desirable conclusions, and it will cause more solidarity among the Muslims.
 

zahra67

Active Member
Something that is common for kings and even individuals is that when they see the signs of death they appoint a successor for themselves to prevent future conflicts and to protect their achievements
Shia says God already asked people in his book to be friend of Ali because Ali was prophet's cousin and his daughter's husband
Look
الشورى
ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ
It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative. (23)

But prophet had fear about declaring Ali's guardianship simply because in crowd were some people that would never accept his guardianship and prophet didn't want to destroy all of his achievement during 23 years but god told him

المائده
حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةُ وَالدَّمُ وَلَحْمُ الْخِنزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ وَالْمُنْخَنِقَةُ وَالْمَوْقُوذَةُ وَالْمُتَرَدِّيَةُ وَالنَّطِيحَةُ وَمَا أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ وَمَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ وَأَن تَسْتَقْسِمُوا بِالْأَزْلَامِ ذَٰلِكُمْ فِسْقٌ الْيَوْمَ يَئِسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن دِينِكُمْ فَلَا تَخْشَوْهُمْ وَاخْشَوْنِ الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ فِي مَخْمَصَةٍ غَيْرَ مُتَجَانِفٍ لِّإِثْمٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah, and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (3)


Besides notice that isn't a little weird for a prophet to stop a huge crowd and say somebody is my friend!!!!!!!
What's the use of that?????
Three meaningful traditions!
1- Who is right?
Umm Salamah and ‘Ayshah, Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) wives said: We heard from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.):
علی مع الحق و الحق مع علی لن یفترقا حتی یردا علی الحوض
‘Ali is with right, and right is with ‘Ali, they do not separate each other until appearing to me besides the Pond of Abundance.
This tradition has been narrated in many of Sunnite popular resources. Allamah Amini has mentioned these resources exactly in the third volume of Al-Ghadir.24
The famous Sunnite commentator, Fakhr Razi, in his commentary book, under the Opening sura says: ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib (a.s.) recited
" بسم الله"
loudly, and it has been proved by repeated transmission. Whoever follows ‘Ali in his religion, he has been guided, as the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) says:
اللهم ادر الحق مع علی حیث دار
O God, make him the criteria of right, to wherever he turns.25
Pay attention. It says the right turns to wherever he turns!
2- Pledge of brotherhood
A group of known companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) have narrated following tradition from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.):
آخی رسول الله (صلی الله علیه و آله) بین اصحابه فاخی بین ابی بکر و عمر، و فلان و فلان، فجاء علی (رضی الله عنه) فقال آخیت بین اصحابک و لم تواخ بینی و بین احد؟! فقال رسول الله (صلی الله علیه و آله) انت اخی فی الدنیا و الآخرة.
The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) set the pledge of brotherhood between his companions, such as between Umar and Abu Bakr, and the others (those in the same rank). Then, ‘Ali (a.s.) came to him and said: You set the pledge of brotherhood for all, but not between anyone and me? The Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said: You are my brother in the world and hereafter.
The same content with similar phrases has been stated in 49 other cases. These traditions are generally found in the Sunnite resources!26
Isn’t the pledge of brotherhood between ‘Ali and the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) a proof for his excellence and superiority to the all nation? Is it possible to prefer someone to the superior?
3- The sole means of salvation
Keeping in hand the door of Kabah, Abu Dharr called:
من عرفنی (فقد عرفنی) و من لم یعرفنی فانا ابوذر، سمعت النبی (صلی الله علیه و آله) یقول: مثل اهل بیتی فیکم مثل سفینة نوح، من رکبها نجی و من تخلف عنها غرق
Whoever knows me, he knows, and whoever doesn’t know me, may know that I am Abu Dharr. I heard from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.): The similitude of my Household is like that of Noah ship. Whoever enters it, is saved, and whoever leaves it, will be drowned.
The references of the above tradition are very numerous, to which will be referred in the footnote.27
When Noah typhoon happened on the earth, there was no salvation means, save Noah ship. Even the high mountains could not deliver Noah’s son who had associated with the evil-doers.
As per the saying of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.), is there any way for salvation of the nation after him, save resorting to the Household (a.s.)?
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hey everyone!

I am a non-Muslim who finds the subject of the succession to Muhammad a very interesting subject. Lately I have been listening to Sunni and Shia perspectives on the Event of Ghadir Khumm. It was the event where Muhammad raised Ali's hand before 100,000 people at Ghadir Khumm and said, among other things, and I paraphrase, "For whom I was his mawla, Ali is also his mawla." From my point of view a person can interpet mawla as either "authority" or "friend" depending on which statements you interpret the sentence with, those before it or those after it. But which statements in the narration should one use to interpret the word? I think it would be easy to decide if we know who the people in the crowd were.

What I have heard from Sunni sources is that the context of the event was friendship. Some men had set themselves against Ali for having denied them taking supplies for themselves. In response Muhammad basically told them at Ghadir Khumm that they should accept Ali as their friend and be loyal to him if they took him (Muhammad) as their friend and were loyal to him. Being that Muhammad, Ali, and the crowd had stopped at the pond on their way from Makkah to Madinah, it makes sense that the event was about friendship rather than authority/Caliphate if the very crowd that was travelling back to Madinah was the same group* that had set themselves against Ali for not allowing them to take supplies for themselves. Are there any early sources that explicitly or implicitly say the crowd at Ghadir Khumm were the people who opposed Ali?

I would like to see evidence from those who are in the Sunni camp, i.e., those who do not believe the Event of Ghadir Khumm was an event where Muhammad appointed a successor. Likewise I am interested in hearing from the Shia camp any early recordings of who the crowd was.

This thread exists because I am very interested in this subject. I understand it can be a touchy matter, and it is not my intention to cause animosity between individuals on the forum. If you would like to reply, please take it as an opportunity to present evidence or arguments to me rather than against any other individual.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to any and all replies!

*Or they might have been among others in the group.
please read my previous evidences and also the three hadithes which i sent in my last comment.
you can read complete online or print it or download it pdf.
i mean the source is:

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/ghadir-tradition-expressive-evidence-guardianship
 

Talmai

Member
Something that is common for kings and even individuals is that when they see the signs of death they appoint a successor for themselves to prevent future conflicts and to protect their achievements

That sounds like a reasonable argument for interpreting mawla as "master."

Shia says God already asked people in his book to be friend of Ali because Ali was prophet's cousin and his daughter's husband
Look
الشورى
ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ
It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative. (23)

I looked up the word in that ayah that was translated as "good will" and I saw it can be translated better as "love" or "affection." I'm not very learned in Arabic and I would like to know if the word for "kinship" in this translation points to Muhammad.

Besides notice that isn't a little weird for a prophet to stop a huge crowd and say somebody is my friend!!!!!!!
What's the use of that?????

From my perspective stopping a huge crowd at a pond to declare someone is their friend and deserves their loyalty is not really unreasonable. I think it can happen for either reason: to declare friendship or to declare a successor.

Thank you for the reply.
 

interminable

منتظر
That sounds like a reasonable argument for interpreting mawla as "master."



I looked up the word in that ayah that was translated as "good will" and I saw it can be translated better as "love" or "affection." I'm not very learned in Arabic and I would like to know if the word for "kinship" in this translation points to Muhammad.



From my perspective stopping a huge crowd at a pond to declare someone is their friend and deserves their loyalty is not really unreasonable. I think it can happen for either reason: to declare friendship or to declare a successor.

Thank you for the reply.
مودة in Arabic I mean in holy Quran is used for example for a relationship between a wife and a husband
In this case Allah asks Muslims to have such relationship with household of the prophet
قربی means near relatives
So we can conclude that Allah already asked people to be friend with Ali

And consider that why God says don't fear but me
Was prophet afraid of declaring Ali as his friend???

If u take a look at history of Islam , Islam was stabilized by wealth of prophet's wife and sword of Ali
Everybody knew that there is no one nearer to the prophet but Ali


Besides u didn't think carefully about those verses and supplication that the prophet recited after that

Looking carefully into their meanings will left no doubt that he is talking about his successorship
 

Talmai

Member
مودة in Arabic I mean in holy Quran is used for example for a relationship between a wife and a husband
In this case Allah asks Muslims to have such relationship with household of the prophet
قربی means near relatives
So we can conclude that Allah already asked people to be friend with Ali

After a little research I have concluded that ‌الْمَوَ‌دَّةَ فِي‌الْ‍‍قُ‍‍رْبَى‌ in 42:23 means "the affection to the near relatives." Being that the definite article comes before the word for "affection," I can agree with you that people already knew about the friendship. Also, being that the definite article comes before the word for "near relatives," the word cannot be generic but particular. So, if I were to read this ayah for the very first time in Arabic (and remember, I am not very learned in the language) and knew nothing about Shi'ism, I would think, "He did not want anything in return from his followers for the revelation except the affection to the near relatives. He probably meant his own near relatives."

Besides u didn't think carefully about those verses and supplication that the prophet recited after that

Looking carefully into their meanings will left no doubt that he is talking about his successorship

Do you mean the Hadith of Ghadir Khumm?

Thanks for taking time to reply!
 
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