Genesis 17: Guarding the Covenant.

[John D. Brey]

It's not hyperbolic in the least to say that Genesis chapter 17 is something like Grand Central Station for biblical exegesis. How Genesis 17 is exegeted and interpreted affects how every other verse in the scripture is read. Naturally every chapter and verse affects all others as all scripture dovetails and every verse is affected by every other verse. But it's fair to say the verses in Genesis 17 are more fundamental than all the other fundamental verses; fundamentally speaking.



John

 

[Thief]

first line includes.......walk before Me.....
be thou perfect

as if God is right behind you

food for thought

 

[John D. Brey]

first line includes.......walk before Me.....
be thou perfect

as if God is right behind you

food for thought

What do you think it means to command Abram to be "perfect" תמים (tamim)? In other words, how is Abram to be, or become, perfect?

The rest of the chapter could be said to be partly an explanation of what it means to be perfect; and how to get there.

What do you suppose it's telling Abram to do so that he can be perfect? And how does what he's told to do make him perfect?



John

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's not hyperbolic in the least to say that Genesis chapter 17 is something like Grand Central Station for biblical exegesis. How Genesis 17 is exegeted and interpreted affects how every other verse in the scripture is read. Naturally every chapter and verse affects all others as all scripture dovetails and every verse is affected by every other verse. But it's fair to say the verses in Genesis 17 are more fundamental than all the other fundamental verse; fundamentally speaking.

Thank you so much for taking the time to let Jews know that "the verses in Genesis 17 are more fundamental than all the other fundamental verse; fundamentally speaking."

 

[Estro Felino]

Who speaks in that Chapter is El Shaddai.
Yahweh = El Shaddai ?

 

[Batya]

Who speaks in that Chapter is El Shaddai.
Yahweh = El Shaddai ?

El shaddai is another name/term for YHWH.

 

[John D. Brey]

Thank you so much for taking the time to let Jews know that "the verses in Genesis 17 are more fundamental than all the other fundamental verse; fundamentally speaking."

Hopefully Jews who know the fundamental nature of Genesis 17 will help this thread delve deeper than a mere Gentile could possibly delve into the great fundamental Jewish truths of the great chapter.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Who speaks in that Chapter is El Shaddai.
Yahweh = El Shaddai ?

Some Jewish sages (say Ibn Ezra) claim "El Shaddai" isn't a name, but an adjective: God Almighty. I disagree.

Which leaves the question of who, or what, is implied, by the name "El Shaddai" אל שדי? . . . Fwiw, I've done the Hebrew exegesis to prove the name is a Hebrew equivalent of the Latin "Agnus Dei."



John

 

[John D. Brey]

El shaddai is another name/term for YHWH.

The Tetragrammaton stands for the opposite of this name [Shaddai].

Ibn Ezra.​

John

 

[Batya]

It's not hyperbolic in the least to say that Genesis chapter 17 is something like Grand Central Station for biblical exegesis. How Genesis 17 is exegeted and interpreted affects how every other verse in the scripture is read. Naturally every chapter and verse affects all others as all scripture dovetails and every verse is affected by every other verse. But it's fair to say the verses in Genesis 17 are more fundamental than all the other fundamental verses; fundamentally speaking.



John

What are your thoughts on some of the impacts Gen 17 has on the interpretation of the rest of Scripture?

 

[Estro Felino]

Some Jewish sages (say Ibn Ezra) claim "El Shaddai" isn't a name, but an adjective: God Almighty. I disagree.

Which leaves the question of who, or what, is implied, by the name "El Shaddai" אל שדי? . . . Fwiw, I've done the Hebrew exegesis to prove the name is a Hebrew equivalent of the Latin "Agnus Dei."



John

This is the footnote on Genesis 17 1 from the Jerusalem Bible (above).

The translation God Almighty is inexact. The meaning of El Shaddai is uncertain. Some say it might mean Lord of the Mountain (from the Accadic shadu), but it preferable to interpret it as (from Hebrew), Lord of the shrublands.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

It's not hyperbolic in the least to say that Genesis chapter 17 is something like Grand Central Station for biblical exegesis. How Genesis 17 is exegeted and interpreted affects how every other verse in the scripture is read. Naturally every chapter and verse affects all others as all scripture dovetails and every verse is affected by every other verse. But it's fair to say the verses in Genesis 17 are more fundamental than all the other fundamental verses; fundamentally speaking.



John

Abraham has very little to no understanding of the message he is receiving in Genesis 17 because Isaac has not be born yet. That’s why Abraham performs ritual circumcision because he has no realization of actual circumcision at that time.

Isaac represents a higher level of being within Abraham, which Abraham has (vaguely) brought into awareness but has not yet been actualized. When Jesus teaches about becoming like a child, and being reborn, he is speaking to what Isaac represents in relation to Abraham. The best metaphor is the father-son.

In contrast to Isaac who is associated with faith, Ishmael is associated with “the Law” or what I would interpret as “socialization”. Socialization comes before faith, which is why Ishmael is older than Isaac. For the part of us connected to that which compels our faith, socialization is a form of slavery. That’s why Ishmael is born of the slave Hagar.

Paul explains this last part in Galatians. Which, I’m a little embarrassed to admit, I had not read until today.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hopefully Jews who know the fundamental nature of Genesis 17 will help this thread delve deeper than a mere Gentile could possibly delve into the great fundamental Jewish truths of the great chapter.

^ pretentious nonsense

 

[John D. Brey]

What are your thoughts on some of the impacts Gen 17 has on the interpretation of the rest of Scripture?

I named this thread "Guarding the Covenant" with the express intention of implying, and showing, with exegesis of the Hebrew text, that Judaism has been "guarding" the covenant (in obedience to the commandment in Genesis 17) in the most ironic, and or paradoxical, manner: they've placed a fence of mistranslation around the verses so that no one but someone able to look deeper than the sages gets to spy Shaddai.

Rashi said it's ok to throw out mistranslations to guard the traditional Jewish reading of the Hebrew text from being interpreted differently by other traditions trying to interpret the text.

This thread is about taking down the fence the sages placed around the central compound of the scripture. And it hasn't been taken down without leaving holes in my hands and feet from the barbs in the barbed interpretations designed to keep me out. Truth be known, the deepest stigmatism, or wound, is just beneath the eye of my right shad.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

View attachment 47344

This is the footnote on Genesis 17 1 from the Jerusalem Bible (above).

Although the meaning of the Name Shaddai is crucial, the crux (so to say), of much of what Genesis 17 has to say, it's not specifically the topic of this thread. It's been dealt with, at least as a footnote to other topics, here, and below.

John

 

[Estro Felino]

Although the meaning of the Name Shaddai is crucial, the crux (so to say), of much of what Genesis 17 has to say, it's not specifically the topic of this thread. It's been dealt with, at least as a footnote to other topics, here, and below.

Yes...what I meant is that Yahweh makes a second Covenant with Israel (Jacob)...that is why I was underlining the difference between Yahweh and El Shaddai.

 

[John D. Brey]

Abraham has very little to no understanding of the message he is receiving in Genesis 17 because Isaac has not be born yet. That’s why Abraham performs ritual circumcision because he has no realization of actual circumcision at that time.

Isaac represents a higher level of being within Abraham, which Abraham has (vaguely) brought into awareness but has not yet been actualized. When Jesus teaches about becoming like a child, and being reborn, he is speaking to what Isaac represents in relation to Abraham. The best metaphor is the father-son.

In contrast to Isaac who is associated with faith, Ishmael is associated with “the Law” or what I would interpret as “socialization”. Socialization comes before faith, which is why Ishmael is older than Isaac. For the part of us connected to that which compels our faith, socialization is a form of slavery. That’s why Ishmael is born of the slave Hagar.

Paul explains this last part in Galatians. Which, I’m a little embarrassed to admit, I had not read until today.

If I'm not mistaken, in Galatians, Paul makes a rather paradoxical comparison between Ishmael and Isaac claiming, ironically, that the Church is the spiritual seed of Abraham, while Israel has become like Ishmael, slaves, servants of the law and the lawgiver.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Yes...what I meant is that Yahweh makes a second Covenant with Israel (Jacob)...that is why I was underlining the difference between Yahweh and El Shaddai.

What scripture are you referencing in relationship to Yahweh making a second covenant with Israel?



John

 

[Estro Felino]

What scripture are you referencing in relationship to Yahweh making a second covenant with Israel?



John

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

 

[John D. Brey]

Deuteronomy 32:8

Could you interpret that for me in the context of a new covenant to Israel?



John