Gender

[Irenicas]

Oooohhhhh... Biggie here. I have a feeling there are going to be some hefty ideas here, so if you don't feel up to serious debate then GET OUT NOW! RUN, RUN, WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!!

Sorry. Kinda needed to get that out of my system.

Anyway. Ahem. I have been thinking a lot recently about gender and the future of gender. It occurred to me that as science continues to advance the strict nature of gender is slowly going to collapse. Already it is possible to change your gender (though a difficult and long process). In the future, is it hard to imagine a situation where we can change our gender as often as our hair style? If so, what difference does the gender that you are born as make? It may well change your socialogical and mental influences but, as we progress, all that much?
Another thing that I have noticed is the explosion of "alternative" sexualities. Though they have been around for ever, only recently have we seen strong groups of different sexualities. We already have heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals. What's next, as we gradually loosen up and become less imposed upon this community? Besti-sexuals? Omni-sexuals? Necro-sexuals? Nuli-sexuals? Will we get to a point where everyone is one thing or another to such a spread, that it won't even matter anymore? Does it really matter now? After all, there are so many people who experiment with their sexuality, or class themselves as "functional bisexuals" that already the definitions of gender and sexualites are being changed.
Basically, I just want your thoughts about gender today, and your thoughts about gender in future. Where are we now? Where do we go from here? What's next on the (bad joke ahead!) A-Gender? (sorry). What pressures will there be? Will it cause a war, or many wars? WIll society split? Who will tolerate it, and who won't? Is religion a factor, or is it largely uncaring in this circumstance?

What, all in all, do you think?

 

[keevelish]

You can't really change your gender. The chromosomes (XY, XX) that you were born with still tell a person's innate gender. If changing some specific body parts through surgery makes a person the opposite gender, then people who actually have pig heart valves and such must, of course, be pigs! Not to mention those who have diabetes and take goat or E. Coli insulin. Adding some hormones to change appearance will not change the gender of a person.

 

[dolly]

Like the person above said, you can alter your body to resemble another gender, but you can't actually become that gender.

Another thing that I have noticed is the explosion of "alternative" sexualities. Though they have been around for ever, only recently have we seen strong groups of different sexualities.

No. We have only recently in the last couple hundred years seen an "explosion" of "alternative" sexualities. They were very common in different societies at different times.

We already have heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals. What's next, as we gradually loosen up and become less imposed upon this community? Besti-sexuals? Omni-sexuals? Necro-sexuals? Nuli-sexuals?

There are already necrophiliacs, asexuals(assuming that's what you meant by nuli), and people who practice bestiality. What would omnisexuals be? Anyway, this would happen. Why? Homosexuals, asexuals, bisexuals, and heterosexuals are natural, healthy, etc. Healthy relationships (or lackthereof) are consenting. Necrophilia, bestiality, etc involve no consent whatsoever. Hom, het, and bi aren't even comparable with necro, bestial, etc.

Will we get to a point where everyone is one thing or another to such a spread, that it won't even matter anymore? Does it really matter now?

It shouldn't matter now, and everyone is already spread out like that.

After all, there are so many people who experiment with their sexuality, or class themselves as "functional bisexuals" that already the definitions of gender and sexualites are being changed.

"Functional bisexuals?" How does that change the definitions of gender or sexuality?

Basically, I just want your thoughts about gender today, and your thoughts about gender in future.

Physically, gender is just what type of chromosome combination you have. That's it. That's how it will always be.

What pressures will there be?

Confused about that question. Please elaborate.

Will it cause a war, or many wars?

I don't see how it would...

WIll society split?

Already split in many places.

Who will tolerate it, and who won't?

Open-minded people tolerate, closed-minded people don't.

Is religion a factor, or is it largely uncaring in this circumstance?

Religion is always an important factor because they like to read more into it. To some of them, gender is more than what chromosome combination you have. It's what's in your pants; it's how you are supposed to react in given circumstances; it's what type of job you are allowed to have; its what limits what rights you can have; its what position you have in a relationship; it's how you worship, what you wear, etc.

I can go on and on. Most religions looks too much into gender.

 

[Pah]

You can't really change your gender. The chromosomes (XY, XX) that you were born with still tell a person's innate gender. If changing some specific body parts through surgery makes a person the opposite gender, then people who actually have pig heart valves and such must, of course, be pigs! Not to mention those who have diabetes and take goat or E. Coli insulin. Adding some hormones to change appearance will not change the gender of a person.

Actually, that is not true.First there is more than that combination of chromosones (XYY, XXY and rarely XXYY are possible) and chormosones determine male or female. That is determined at conception. The only difference between male and female of any species is the relative size of the gamete - the male having a much smaller size relative to the female.

Gender determination is made much later but before puberty when the individual realizes whether he or she is feminine or masculine and that does not always match male or female.

Knowledge of one's orientation happens generally at or near puberty

All of this assumes the morphology, both external and internal, corresponds to male or female.

-pah-

 

[dolly]

First there is more than that combination of chromosones and chormosones determine male or female. That is determined at conception. The only difference between male and female of any species is the relative size of the gamete - the male having a much smaller size relative to the female.

And what information is in the gamete. And even though there are different combinations, if the baby has at least one Y it is a male. No Y, then it's female. Physically that is.

Gender determination is made much later but before puberty when the individual realizes whether he or she is feminine or masculine and that does not always match male or female.

This is the part that confuses me. Physically it's easy to find out if you are male or female, but I don't know what makes a person's mind/soul male or female. Personally, I don't even think there is such a thing as gender of the soul - it's more of what body they feel most comfortable in.

 

[Pah]

And what information is in the gamete. And even though there are different combinations, if the baby has at least one Y it is a male. No Y, then it's female. Physically that is.

I don't think there is any information about male or female in the gamete for the concieved (conceivable?) The zygote becomes male or female by a slitting of the male gametes chromosone where only a half of the chromosone is available in the zygote for joining the one split from the female gamete. The gamete size is used when there are "confusing" indications from the extraneous formations of the chromosone. That characteristic is universal accross all living species.

This is the part that confuses me. Physically it's easy to find out if you are male or female, but I don't know what makes a person's mind/soul male or female. Personally, I don't even think there is such a thing as gender of the soul - it's more of what body they feel most comfortable in.

I used the terms masculine and feminine for the sexual identification one becomes aware of. Masculine females and feminine males are not uncommon and are quite apart form orientation.

I don't think it is a matter of the soul which has a religious connatation but it is an arrival of and acceptance of self-identity which is of the mind. One can identify one's self as masculine or feminine regardless of appearance and mannerisms. And all of this takes place before you discover your orientation. It is the disctinction between homosexual and transgendered (I prefer that term to transsexual). A male with the gender of a woman and the orientation toward males is transgendered. A male with the gender of a male and orientated toward males is homosexual. A male with the gender of masculine that orients to both male and female is bisexual.

The range of sexuality is large.

-pah-

 

[Lightkeeper]

I think the only thing that has changed is that people are more open about their sexuality and sexual preferences. This makes it appear that that these sexualities are on the rise. I think in the future more people will have a sex change, because it's possible, but I think the overall percentages will remain the same. From what I've seen of people who have had sex changes, their overall personality didn't change. Therefore, it may not make much of an impact on society.

 

[Pah]

I think the only thing that has changed is that people are more open about their sexuality and sexual preferences. This makes it appear that that these sexualities are on the rise. I think in the future more people will have a sex change, because it's possible, but I think the overall percentages will remain the same. From what I've seen of people who have had sex changes, their overall personality didn't change. Therefore, it may not make much of an impact on society.

The homosexual does not seek a sex change and is content with being male or female

The transgender fall into three categories - pre-op, post-op and no-op. the "no-op" may even not persue hormonal change.

I have found, from my limited aquaintences, that a post-op is generally happier to be "complete" even though nonreproductive. I have learned from "announced" homosexual friends that they too are happier even if the circle of friends grows smaller.

The number of transgendered is probably much larger than most would imagine (I wish I have my book) Of three surgeons who perform the altering surgery (there are many more surgeons who don't carry the same patient load), they have about 500 patients each year and have for many years. Add to that the filled schedule for the coming year and a much larger population of patients that forego surgery and most (but not all) tranvstites, it becomes as significant to society (although less in number) as the number of homosexuals.

-pah-

 

[Lightkeeper]

Pah, what in my statement are you replying to? You quoted me, but I don't see what you were replying to.

 

[Pah]

I love a soapbox it seems. I was amplifying what you said and hope it was not "opposing"

-pah-

 

[Lightkeeper]

O.K. Got it! I do wonder though if some homosexuals might have thought of having a sex change operation.

 

[dolly]

I don't think there is any information about male or female in the gamete for the concieved (conceivable?)

The gamete itself ( x or y)... the sperms anyway have the information of the gender. I was referring to the differences in gametes though. The information is always different - more so if it's y and x.

The zygote becomes male or female by a slitting of the male gametes chromosone where only a half of the chromosone is available in the zygote for joining the one split from the female gamete.

I though that it was during meiosis is when the sperm "find out" what gender they will be. If the sperm has an X the baby is female, a Y, male. This is done long before the zygote.

 

[dolly]

O.K. Got it! I do wonder though if some homosexuals might have thought of having a sex change operation.

I doubt it. Homosexuals accept and like their gender. They might be desperate enough to resort to that for acceptant (now they can' date a male without anyone saying anything), but it would make them as miserable as a pre-op trans.

 

[Irenicas]

Glad I managed to bring a new debate to life. To field some questions:

I disagree with the statement that if you have been born a certain gender, even changing your physicality does not change your inate gender. Many transexuals are in fact mentally born the opposite gender to their physical selves. This is science fact. Also, I feel you may have misinterpretated my ideas about a future possiblity of changing sex with ease. By this I meant that we could change quickly and easily the very core of our gender, chromosones and all - by what means, I don't know. Genetic modification, maybe. This sounds like science fiction, but we may be closer than many people realise. Even if it is, it throws up some interesting questions.

To answer - do some homosexuals consider sex changes? Almost certainly! I myself have wished on occasion that I was born a girl, not simply because I am attracted to men and women, but because the reaction to sexual experimentation as it is so called is less extreme amoung women.

Omni-sexual is a rather bizzare theoretical term that I have used on previous occasions. It simply means one who is sexually stimulated by everything. It's not a practical state, ,merely a theoretical one.

Also, in regards to the comments about necrophillia and bestiality. I was merely pointing out that these feelings are not the fault of the person who has them. I was once told not to compare these things (though in the context I was actually talking about paeodophillia, though this is just as relevant) to homosexuality, though I see them as very similar, in their creation at least. Homosexuals are born homosexuals - peaodophiles are born peaodophiles. Society is another distinguishing factor - in ancient times, it was perfectly acceptable to marry young girls of 11 or 12, and for them to bear children. Was this wrong? Not by their society's rules.

What I meant about splits in society is that if we do begin to accept people as they are, then will some groups have a problem with this?

Another thing I'd like to throw into the mix here is the act of sex itself. Is this becoming less important, as we make it more explicit and non-reproductive. Recreational sex is not an unknown thing now, and in the future it is likely to become more prolific. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so, for it is simply a physical act. If your partner (or friend for that matter) consents, and there is a very low chance of concieving (which is perfectly possible if one uses all the available prevention aids in conjunction) then why should it not be acceptable? After all, no one can say that sex is not pleasurable, and so it seems absurd to restrict it to relationships. That's my own point of view - what's yours?

 

[dolly]

disagree with the statement that if you have been born a certain gender, even changing your physicality does not change your inate gender.

Innate? No. Physical? yes. You can't change your physical gender without changing at least one of the sex chromosomes in every single somatic cell in your body.

Also, in regards to the comments about necrophillia and bestiality. I was merely pointing out that these feelings are not the fault of the person who has them. I was once told not to compare these things (though in the context I was actually talking about paeodophillia, though this is just as relevant) to homosexuality, though I see them as very similar, in their creation at least. Homosexuals are born homosexuals - peaodophiles are born peaodophiles.

Yes, but people always just say "homosexuality and pedophilia." They are as closely related as heterosexuality and pedophilia.

Society is another distinguishing factor - in ancient times, it was perfectly acceptable to marry young girls of 11 or 12, and for them to bear children. Was this wrong? Not by their society's rules.

Girls that age were considered adults (as soon as they started menstrating). Besides, back then, by the time they reach 11 they are 1/3 the way through their life.

What I meant about splits in society is that if we do begin to accept people as they are, then will some groups have a problem with this?

And as I said before, this has always happened, is happening, and probably will continue to happen.

Is this becoming less important, as we make it more explicit and non-reproductive.

In general, yes, but not because it's non-reproductive, but because people have started using it simply because it's something to do.

I don't think so, for it is simply a physical act. If your partner (or friend for that matter) consents, and there is a very low chance of concieving (which is perfectly possible if one uses all the available prevention aids in conjunction) then why should it not be acceptable?

Acceptable in the way that it isn't punishable, and that it is someone's opinion, yes. Personally, I don't find it morally right. Sex just means something more to me, and should be reserved for expressing love between people. I'm not going to run around saying that everyone in the world who have sex for fun are monsters, I just don't agree with them personally.

 

[Irenicas]

Heterosexuality and pedophilia - how true.

About them being a third of their way through their life - a common mistake. The average age to live to was indeed mid-thirties, but in fact if you survived past your 3rd or 4th year, then you were likely to reach OAP status!

Can you explain why you don't believe it is morally right? Why should we reserve it for expressing love between two people? What makes this one biological act so special sompared to others - why don't we hold burping in reverence! "oh dear, you can't just burp with whoever you like you know, you have to have a special bond first!".

 

[dolly]

Can you explain why you don't believe it is morally right?

I don't know. Morals are just opinions, and I just feel as if something so intimate shouldn't be shared with just anyone. On a physical level, when two people have sex, oxytocin is produced. This makes the two people bond on a more personal level.

Why should we reserve it for expressing love between two people?

We shouldn't. I said that it was my personal opinion, and I'm not going to force my morals on anyone. It's your body, do with it as you will, but I am going to reserve sex for solely expressing love in my life.

What makes this one biological act so special sompared to others - why don't we hold burping in reverence! "oh dear, you can't just burp with whoever you like you know, you have to have a special bond first!".

One's opinions, religious perspective, morals, etc decide the level of emotion that they feel should be placed in sex. Burping doesn't bond two people; burping doesn't affect one's emotions significantly(unless you are burp-a-phobic or something); burping isn't as risky, etc.

 

[trishtrish10]

gender can be surgeried upon for change and male or female is proven by chromosomes, but it psychological science not biological that supposedly proves u r what u think. i think i am an amoeba, but i know i'm not. i see this as conflicting with my dreams.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

gender does play a big role in our lives. like when a baby is born, the grandparents first call the couple, "is it a boy or girl?" one of the first questions. good debate going on here.

i dont see why gays would want to change. its only trans people who feel they are in the wrong body. well. many a time i wished i was a girl, then i can go to carnatic music college and my parents wouldnt object. i would be able and proficient in bharathanatyam. life would be much simpler as a straight girl. but no. God gave me this challenge, and im going to overcome it and succede!

 

[Paraprakrti]

People need to be less concerned with their genitalia. Society in general is degraded because everything centers around sexual conceptions. It is pointless to try and justify such nonsense with emotional value. First of all, if one feels that they should have been born the opposite gender, then maybe they will get their wish granted next time around. But why artificially try to become something else? And even if modern science develops a way that will completely turn one gender into the other... what a complete waste of time! Why is there such a large focus on our genders when we should be concentrated on the soul, which transcends gender altogether?