Gay adoption is good for children

[Quoth The Raven]

This country began under a religious, Biblical influence. The belief in God by our forefathers is well-established.

It's bizarre enough that some of you people don't even know enough about world geography to be able to tell someone where another country is, but the fact you apparently have no idea of certain aspects of your own history while people in other countries can look at the above statement and say,'Twaddle' with authority is even more amazing.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe the best family model includes a father and a mother who love each other, love their children, and do their best to provide for their children’s physical, emotional, spiritual, and intellectual needs.

Yes, we know by now that you believe this. That does not make it true, and you have not presented a single study, fact, experience or evidence of any kind to support it.

The facts above do not justify society or the individual in intentionally abandoning the best family model of a father and a mother.

You haven't shown that it is the best model. The evidence shows otherwise.

A single woman, who thinks her children don’t need a father, and so intentionally becomes pregnant to raise her children alone, is doing her children a disservice.

There is evidence to show that kids with only one parent do not do as well as kids with two.

Gay and lesbian couples that believe that their potential adopted children don’t need a father and a mother, are doing those children a disservice.

Just saying something doesn't make it so. What you're missing here is evidence. Meanwhile, in reality, gay and lesbian couples who adopt children who need a home, and provide them with a caring family instead of foster care, are doing them the greatest service possible. Do you actually think my daughter would be better off in foster care than with me? Would you like to ask her? Or, how about the heterosexual foster parents she lived with before me, the ones who said they were going to adopt her and didn't. She would fight you if you told her she had to back to them. I think it's because they beat her with a wooden spoon.

Married couples with children, who divorce when it is not necessary, do their children a disservice. (There are clearly many examples of when divorce is necessary).

This is true, but irrelevant.

I see two distinct, but related, questions being raised in this thread. Does the best family model include a father and a mother? If the answer is yes, what circumstances, if any, warrant placing children in a home that does not have a father and a mother?

You haven't shown yet that the answer is yes. It isn't.

As far as the second question is concerned, I believe that if there are not enough willing and qualified fathers and mothers to go around, we need to find alternate ways to care for children without parents. That is clear.

But there are willing and qualified mothers and fathers. You just don't approve of them because they come in two-packs, rather than assortments.

On the first question, our entire society is based on the concept of the family, with fathers and mothers. This was not by accident. It is by divine design. Children need the role models and nurturing that are uniquely provided by fathers and mothers of different sexes. This is why nature provides that human reproduction only occurs between the opposite sexes.

Other than dragging your peculiar religious beliefs into the discussion, do you have any evidence? You know what that is, right? Evidence? That's the stuff that puts us in touch with reality.

There is much data to indicate that children raised without fathers or mothers in the home are more likely to have problems as adolescents and adults.

Is there any data to indicate that children raised in a home with same sex parents are more likely to have problems as adolescents and adults?

These beliefs motivate me to oppose adoption into families without fathers and mothers, unless it is absolutely necessary to do otherwise. My motivation is the welfare of children. It’s ok for me to advocate policy that I believe is in the best interest of the children. The fact that there is wide disagreement on the subject, and the fact that my view is motivated by religion, does not mean that I should not take a stand on public policy.

But since your beliefs turn out to be mistaken, you end up advocating against children's actual best interests.

Most of our laws are based on religious belief. If there were no God, there would be no love. If there were no love, there would be no sense of remorse for harming others. There would be no empathy. If there were no love and empathy, there would be no laws to protect others. Stealing and murder and rape would all be legal. So, we legislate according to our God given sense of right and wrong all of the time. I’m certainly not suggesting that atheists are devoid of love and empathy. To the contrary, I suggest that the love and empathy they possess comes from the God in whom they do not believe.

I'm going to ignore this ridiculous derail. If you want to make this argument, start by showing that there is any such thing as God. If you can't, then don't go down this path. Look, I can make unsupported assertions too:
There is no God. Because of this fact, people who believe in this delusion are insane, and should not be allowed to adopt. See any problem with my argument? Now look at yours.

So, when we legislate against murder, we are legislating our religion.

What crap.

Some may say, no, we know murder is wrong and hurtful independent of religion. I argue that no, the only reason we know it is wrong is because of the conscience God planted in our hearts – and that is religion. Without God, there is no right and wrong.

Well you're wrong. I really think you're shooting yourself in the foot here, making your position more and more difficult. Now in order to prevail you have to present some evidence that God exists. Go for it.

So, I can’t only take a stand on policy that is unrelated to my religious views. My entire sense of right and wrong and what is harmful to others and why we should not hurt others, is based on my religious views. I admit that this point does not prove that I’m right about gay and lesbian adoption, but it does prove that I have the right to take a stand on public policy, which is motivated by religious belief. We all do the same thing, whether we realize it or not.

So I take it that you are pro-slavery and pro-polygamy then? What is your position on genocide of non-believers? Your scriptures seem to be in favor of it. I think it's better if we don't try to follow them, before we end up stoning disobedient children to death. Let's face it, they're barbaric. We can do better. For example, we can try to make sure that children who need loving parents get them.

 

[Autodidact]

I completely agree with Scott C. Of course no one should uproot children from the home and family they know to be raised the "best family model". This is a ridiculous statement. You know we're not saying this.

Children need good role models.

Absolutely. Anyone who adopts a child should be a good, responsible, caring member of society.

Children need to learn how a good man behaves and how a good woman behaves. Often children will model their perception of God, their Heavenly Father, after their earthly father. Daughters are better prepared to chose a good man for a husband, if they were raised by a good man as their dad. They learn what qualities to look for. Sons obviously need the influence of a good father because there are issues that we women just do not have. This simply is common sense.

Like most common sense, it turns out to be factually wrong.

I resent being called hateful. I try to see both sides. I totally acknowledge that gay people can have all the qualities of a loving parent. I have no doubt that many gay people surpass me in many ways, through talents, personalities, etc. There is no hate here and you have no right to accuse us of this. We have firm beliefs and we stand by them, because we believe in a higher intelligence than that of any of us on this earth.

I haven't called you hateful. I've just pointed out that you're wrong. Not only are many gay people more talented, etc., but many of them are better parents. I know this from personal experience. Do you know any gay or lesbian parents?

 

[Autodidact]

Are you referring to amending the Constitution--marriage between a man and a women? This is the law as it has been for over 200 years in our country. This country began under a religious, Biblical influence. The belief in God by our forefathers is well-established. (I believe that these men were placed on the earth at this time for this purpose.) This beginning was all about religious freedom and the LDS Church completely supports this. Religious freedom for all is written into our basic creed. And we aren't alone in this stand about marriage. The voting process has upheld this.

You're also factually mistaken about our founding fathers; many of them were Deists.

For the survival of a society, the preservation of the family--father, mother, children, is vital. Even though our best efforts may fall short of this, we can't give it up. It is the ideal to strive for and to protect.

Why father and mother? Why not father and mother and mother, like the early Mormons?

 

[Scott C.]

Do you actually think my daughter would be better off in foster care than with me? Would you like to ask her? Or, how about the heterosexual foster parents she lived with before me, the ones who said they were going to adopt her and didn't. She would fight you if you told her she had to back to them. I think it's because they beat her with a wooden spoon. This is true, but irrelevant.

I'm sure that your daughter loves you and you love her. I would never suggest that her adoption should be undone. That would be incredibly inhumane to her and to you. I'm glad she is no longer in an abusive situation and is now loved, safe, and happy. I wish your family the best.

 

[Autodidact]

Scott and Starfish: Do you know any gay or lesbian families?

 

[Autodidact]

How about this idea: How about if the professionals charged with safeguarding the welfare of children choose the best family available for each child?

 

[Starfish]

You're also factually mistaken about our founding fathers; many of them were Deists.

To our non-American readers, I apologize.
There were many more quotes that I had to cut out to make this post-able.

_____________________________________________________________________
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Patrick Henry:
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
]
George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

 

[Scott C.]

Scott and Starfish: Do you know any gay or lesbian families?

I don't know any lesbian familes. That's not by choice. They would be welcome in my circle of friends - if they could tolerate friendship with someone who holds my views.

 

[Autodidact]

Starfish: You're mistaken, but it's a derail. Some of the founding fathers were Christian. Others, such as Jefferson, were Deist. It's irrelevant to this discussion, but I will be happy to discuss it in a separate thread.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't know any lesbian familes. That's not by choice. They would be welcome in my circle of friends - if they could tolerate friendship with someone who holds my views.

So let me get this: You know that heterosexual families are better than lesbian or gay families, despite (1) never having read any research on the subject (2) not knowing any lesbian or gay families. So basically you just make up your opinions based on your religious beliefs, with no reference to reality?

I know many lesbian families, and a few gay dads, as well as many heterosexual families. But, as I've said before in this thread, no one seems interested in hearing about them. It seems easier to hold on to your preconceived notions when you don't have to compare them to reality.

 

[Starfish]

Scott and Starfish: Do you know any gay or lesbian families?

I know a gay couple. They don't have children. Very nice people.

 

[Smoke]

There were many more quotes that I had to cut out to make this post-able.

I purposely ignored your assertions earlier so as not to be dragged off-topic, and I don't intend to be dragged off-topic now. However, I am interested in your answer to my question:

Religious freedom for all is written into our basic creed.

Why, then, are you against religious freedom? Why do you insist on imposing your religious beliefs on others?

 

[Jistyr]

To our non-American readers, I apologize.
There were many more quotes that I had to cut out to make this post-able.

Very good, I have no doubt that a number of our founding fathers were Christians, as a number of them Deists. You have proven that point, but the fact is that they did not found the United States on Christian belief.

The terms religious and moral, are not, in any way, exclusively Christian. And our founding fathers, if they were Christian, knew not to put their own religious flavor in our doctrines.

To do so and then profess that we have religious freedom would be extremely contradictory.

 

[Starfish]

To pull this back on topic, all religion aside, my original assertion is that fathers are important. I will not back down on this. The influence of a good man in a child's life has tremendous value. To deny a child of a loving father will short-change that child. Sometimes this can't be helped. But we must do our best to give our children the best.
And sarcastic comments like the only thing a man can do that a woman can't, is "writing in the snow", is a huge insult to all good fathers.

 

[McBell]

To pull this back on topic, all religion aside, my original assertion is that fathers are important. I will not back down on this. The influence of a good man in a child's life has tremendous value.

Actually the only study presented to back this up is that Father FIGURES may well be important.
HOWEVER, the submitted article does not declare or even hint that father FIGURES are necessary or that they have to be male or that they have to be the biological father or that they even have to be int he "traditional" father position (I.E. uncles can fill in as the father FIGURE)

Of course, the study was of single mother households compares to a mother/father households.

To deny a child of a loving father will short-change that child.

Opinion that cannot even be supported by your religious text.

And sarcastic comments like the only thing a man can do that a woman can't, is "writing in the snow", is a huge insult to all good fathers.

Does that mean I am not a "good" father, seeing as I was not offended?

 

[Smoke]

To pull this back on topic, all religion aside, my original assertion is that fathers are important. I will not back down on this. The influence of a good man in a child's life has tremendous value. To deny a child of a loving father will short-change that child. Sometimes this can't be helped. But we must do our best to give our children the best.
And sarcastic comments like the only thing a man can do that a woman can't, is "writing in the snow", is a huge insult to all good fathers.

Please explain what virtues can only be taught or exemplified by a man, or by a woman. Which virtues are proper to one sex and not the other?

 

[zookeeper]

To pull this back on topic, all religion aside, my original assertion is that fathers are important. I will not back down on this. The influence of a good man in a child's life has tremendous value. To deny a child of a loving father will short-change that child. Sometimes this can't be helped. But we must do our best to give our children the best.
And sarcastic comments like the only thing a man can do that a woman can't, is "writing in the snow", is a huge insult to all good fathers.

I haven't been involved in this thread but while skimming I wanted to pop in and back up starfish. It's a difficult subject to debate when people have such different life experiences. But in my own experiences I have concluded that many, not all, negative issues in peoples lives come down to the absence of a father or a mother. From what I've seen I could never say that they are interchangeable. I do believe that men and women are different, for the most part, and always will be. That leads me to conclude the importance of both.

 

[Smoke]

I do believe that men and women are different, for the most part, and always will be.

Then it should be easy for you to explain what those immutable differences are, and why they are an important part of child-rearing.

That leads me to conclude the importance of both.

Do you believe that the existence of differences means that children must have parents who encompass all differences? Is it wrong for children to be brought up by parents who belong to the same race? The same religion? The same political party?

 

[rheff78]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Starfish, I agree with you, but to be fair, Thomas Jefferson did not want religion and politics to be used together. He believed in a total seperation of church and state. You're doing a good job though.