For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Trailblazer]

Really, all you have is those verses and you use them to deny everything in the Bible about Jesus and give it all to Baha'u'llah, who fulfills nothing but only claims to be the Christ he is not.
Peter tells us that scoffers would come in the last days and say "Where is the promise of Jesus return?"
Paul tells us that Satan changes to an angel of light and deceives many.
I hope the Lord does not come and find you scoffing and following the teachings of an angel of light.
Anyway, I won't answer any more in this thread and will leave RF now.
I feel called to do other things. I have learned a lot here about stuff and about myself. Thanks for the invite to come here.
See you on the other side,,,,,,,,,,,, as they say.

I hope you get those things done that you were called to do.
I hope to see you on the other side.

 

[Eli G]

...

I never claimed that Baha'u'llah is superior to Jesus.
It is Christians who are claiming that Jesus is superior to Baha'u'llah.

...

Of course. An intelligent person looks for the best, the most promising, the most true, etc. ...because logically it is what is best for him/her. Anyone who doesn't do it is not too smart.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course. An intelligent person looks for the best, the most promising, the most true, etc. ...because logically it is what is best for him/her. Anyone who doesn't do it is not too smart.

This is your way of claiming that Jesus is superior to Baha'u'llah.
Why not just say it?

Logically, Baha'u'llah revealed what is best for everyone in this age since He God's Messenger for this age.
Anyone who doesn't follow Him is not too smart.

 

[Muffled]

This is your way of claiming that Jesus is superior to Baha'u'llah.
Why not just say it?

Logically, Baha'u'llah revealed what is best for everyone in this age since He God's Messenger for this age.
Anyone who doesn't follow Him is not too smart.

I believe Jesus as God in the flesh is far superior to a self proclaimed messenger who isn't a messenger from God but is simply a religious philosopher.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe Jesus as God in the flesh is far superior to a self proclaimed messenger who isn't a messenger from God but is simply a religious philosopher.

I do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh since God is spirit.
Jesus and Baha'u'llah were both self-proclaimed Messengers of God and Manifestations of God.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe Jesus as God in the flesh is far superior to a self proclaimed messenger who isn't a messenger from God but is simply a religious philosopher.

The Christian belief in the Trinity of three God results from the belief of Jesus as God, and Mary as a Goddess, Queen of the Angels and Heaven, and Mother of god. Very similar to ancient Hebrew beliefs of YHWH and Asherah, and hierarchy of Gods in ancient Judaism inherited fro the Canaanite/Ugarit religion because the Hebrews were originally a Canaanite trine.

 

[Brian2]

The Christian belief in the Trinity of three God

The trinity is not 3 Gods.

results from the belief of Jesus as God, and Mary as a Goddess, Queen of the Angels and Heaven, and Mother of god.

No it does not result from that.

 

[Brian2]

I do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh since God is spirit.
Jesus and Baha'u'llah were both self-proclaimed Messengers of God and Manifestations of God.

Jesus did not claim to be a manifestation of God. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
Jesus claim to be the Son of God and a messenger from God was backed up by God's enabling Jesus to perform miracles and by God raising Jesus from the dead.
The term "Manifestation of God" seems to be specifically a Baha'i term and results from a redefinition of the word "Manifestation".

 

[shunyadragon]

The trinity is not 3 Gods.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is seated on the right hand of God the Father. Is not Jesus consider God incarnate?

Mary is Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the angels, and without Sin.

Similar titles given to Asherah as Consort of YHWH in ancient Judaism before 600 BCE,

 

[Brian2]

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Jesus was recognised to be part of the Trinity before those terms were used.

Jesus is seated on the right hand of God..

Yes, the Son and the Father are distinct persons.
In plain English (as opposed to the altered English that Baha'i uses) a manifestation of God is when God shows Himself to the world in a form other than His real form. Baha'u'llah was not God or divine at all, so he was not a manifestation of God.
Jesus was not a manifestation of God His Father, Jesus was the Son of God, His Father.

Mary is Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the angels, and without Sin.

Similar titles given to Asherah as Consort of YHWH in ancient Judaism before 600 BCE,

The Judaism that did that was wrong and the titles of and exaltation of Mary by the Catholic Church centuries after Jesus, were also wrong imo.

 

[shunyadragon]

Jesus did not claim to be a manifestation of God. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
Jesus claim to be the Son of God and a messenger from God was backed up by God's enabling Jesus to perform miracles and by God raising Jesus from the dead.
The term "Manifestation of God" seems to be specifically a Baha'i term and results from a redefinition of the word "Manifestation".

Yes the Baha'i Faith describes Jesus as a Manifestation of God spiritually the Son of God as the Messiah, and not literally the Son of God and God incarnate,

 

[shunyadragon]

Jesus was recognised to be part of the Trinity before those terms were used.

Theise terms reflect the beliefs regardless,

Yes, the Son and the Father are distinct persons.

Therefore three Gods, Is not Jesus described as a God incarnate? Changing the terminology does not change the facts.

In plain English (as opposed to the altered English that Baha'i uses) a manifestation of God is when God shows Himself to the world in a form other than His real form.

Itn plain English three Gods with Jesus as the God incarnate, and Mary as the Mother, of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the Angels, born without Sin is the Goddess consort of God similar to the description of Asherah the consort Queen of Heaven.

The Judaism that did that was wrong and the titles of and exaltation of Mary by the Catholic Church centuries after Jesus, were also wrong imo.

This is documented by archaeology and actual inscriptions in Judah before 600 BCE. The small idols were numerous in their homes and th emolds to make the idols were in the temples. There is no documented reference that the Hebrew polytheism was rejected before 600 BCE.

Archeology of the Hebrew Bible

Renowned archeologist William Dever says that attempts to "prove the Bible" are misguided.

www.pbs.org

Baha'u'llah was not God or divine at all, so he was not a manifestation of God.

Jesus was not a manifestation of God His Father, Jesus was the Son of God, His Father.

Of course you are not a believer and you obviously reject the Baha'i Faith. This does not change the fact of Christina polytheism.

 

[shunyadragon]

Of course. An intelligent person looks for the best, the most promising, the most true, etc. ...because logically it is what is best for him/her. Anyone who doesn't do it is not too smart.

Huh?!?!?!

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus did not claim to be a manifestation of God. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
Jesus claim to be the Son of God and a messenger from God was backed up by God's enabling Jesus to perform miracles and by God raising Jesus from the dead.

Welcome back.

No, Jesus did not claim the title Manifestation of God. He claimed to be the Son of God since He came in the station of God's Son.
Even though Jesus never said He was a Manifestation of God, He did manifest God, by making God known and showing us what God is like.

John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

The term "Manifestation of God" seems to be specifically a Baha'i term and results from a redefinition of the word "Manifestation".

The Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh. To Baha'is that means that Jesus manifested God in the flesh.
That means that Jesus made God known to us and showed us what God is like, since Jesus was a mirror image of God.

1 Timothy 3-16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Brian2]

Yes the Baha'i Faith describes Jesus as a Manifestation of God spiritually the Son of God as the Messiah, and not literally the Son of God and God incarnate,

The Bible has Jesus as the only Son of God, not one of many.

 

[Brian2]

Theise terms reflect the beliefs regardless,

Those terms are confusing when used out of context, as you do.

Therefore three Gods, Is not Jesus described as a God incarnate? Changing the terminology does not change the facts.

3 distinct persons, one God.

Itn plain English three Gods with Jesus as the God incarnate, and Mary as the Mother, of God, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the Angels, born without Sin is the Goddess consort of God similar to the description of Asherah the consort Queen of Heaven.

Yes, the mistakes of the Catholic Church.

This is documented by archaeology and actual inscriptions in Judah before 600 BCE. The small idols were numerous in their homes and th emolds to make the idols were in the temples. There is no documented reference that the Hebrew polytheism was rejected before 600 BCE.

Archeology of the Hebrew Bible

Renowned archeologist William Dever says that attempts to "prove the Bible" are misguided.

www.pbs.org

The Bible does tell us why these idols were in the Temple and in peoples' houses however.
Once you reject that source of historical information you can make up your own version of history. That is what many people have done, including yourself, and so we have quite a few different versions of history of the Israelites.

 

[Brian2]

Welcome back.

I am regretting coming back already.

No, Jesus did not claim the title Manifestation of God. He claimed to be the Son of God since He came in the station of God's Son.
Even though Jesus never said He was a Manifestation of God, He did manifest God, by making God known and showing us what God is like.

Jesus is the only Son of God, and God sent Him to become a man and be our sinless atonement and our redeemer.
He is exactly like His Father, iow He has the nature of God.
The Baha'is change the meaning of "manifestation" however when they say that Baha'u'llah etc were manifestations of God but were not God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Those terms are confusing when used out of context, as you do.



3 distinct persons, one God.

Same as three Gods different wording. God the Father is not just a person. Jesus is the incarnate Son of God not just a person. You have not answered the question: Is Jesus the incarnate God? Is Jesus the Creator of the universe and humanity?

The Trinity describes three separate and distinct Divine Beings whether you describe them as Gods or Persons.

Yes, the mistakes of the Catholic Church.

This reflects the references concerning Mary from the texts of the NT that were cited in this thread,.

The Bible does tell us why these idols were in the Temple and in peoples' houses however.
Once you reject that source of historical information you can make up your own version of history. That is what many people have done, including yourself, and so we have quite a few different versions of history of the Israelites.

The sources are accurate. The Pentateuch was published after 600 BCE. What it does not tell us is the beliefs of the Hebrews before 600 BCE

 

[Trailblazer]

I am regretting coming back already.

That's no problem because you can always leave as quickly as you departed.

Jesus is the only Son of God, and God sent Him to become a man and be our sinless atonement and our redeemer.
He is exactly like His Father, iow He has the nature of God.

The nature of Jesus is not exactly like His Father's nature because His Father has some attributes that Jesus does not have.
Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

The Baha'is change the meaning of "manifestation" however when they say that Baha'u'llah etc were manifestations of God but were not God.

Logically speaking, a manifestation of God cannot be God, since a manifestation of something is not the same as what it manifests.

Similarly, since Jesus was the image of God, Jesus could not be God, since an image is not the same as what it reflects.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

 

[Brian2]

That's no problem because you can always leave as quickly as you departed.

True.

The nature of Jesus is not exactly like His Father's nature because His Father has some attributes that Jesus does not have.
Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

Everything that the Father has belongs to the Son. (John 16:15) The Son was in the form of God before becoming a man (Phil 2) and now is back filling the whole universe. (Eph 4:10) IOW the Son is more than a man.

Logically speaking, a manifestation of God cannot be God, since a manifestation of something is not the same as what it manifests.

Similarly, since Jesus was the image of God, Jesus could not be God, since an image is not the same as what it reflects.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

Jesus being the image of the invisible God means that Jesus, internally, is exactly like the Father.
It is true that the Son is not the Father, but both the Father and Son are YHWH.
If God manifests Himself, it means that God appears to someone, not in His true form, but it is God and not someone who is a bit like God.