For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

Those words spoken by an angel (of angels) were sent by God… God who sees things as though already have occurred. So it is no surprise nor a revelation for God’s words to foretell what will be as though they already were.

But you know these things already.., you just refuse to admit them when the truth is in front of you.

I read it that Jesus, the one who was anointed and sent as the Christ, was also anointed at a particular time to do the work of the Christ. It is not that He suddenly became the Christ when anointed at His baptism to do the work He was sent to do.

 

[Colt]

Those words spoken by an angel (of angels) were sent by God… God who sees things as though already have occurred. So it is no surprise nor a revelation for God’s words to foretell what will be as though they already were.

But you know these things already.., you just refuse to admit them when the truth is in front of you.

It was the Son of God himself who sent Gabriel to announce his coming into the world to the parents of the Christ child. In the same way he chose John the Baptist to announce the arrival of the deliverer to the public.

 

[amazing grace]

It was the Son of God himself who sent Gabriel to announce his coming into the world to the parents of the Christ child. In the same way he chose John the Baptist to announce the arrival of the deliverer to the public.

Nope, Jesus didn't send Gabriel to announce his own birth! God sent Gabriel - "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God" . . . [Luke 1:26] and John was sent from God . . . "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." [John 1:6]. The trinity doctrine, the belief that Jesus is God totally misconstrues the person of Jesus Christ - what he accomplished and who he was.

 

[Colt]

Nope, Jesus didn't send Gabriel to announce his own birth! God sent Gabriel - "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God" . . . [Luke 1:26] and John was sent from God . . . "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." [John 1:6]. The trinity doctrine, the belief that Jesus is God totally misconstrues the person of Jesus Christ - what he accomplished and who he was.

I believe that as the Son of God (not the 2nd person of the Trinity) Christ Michael sent Gabriel from heaven to announce his coming. Being God its correct to say that God the Son sent them both.

I also believe that Christ Michael sent Melchizedek to establish the covenant with Abram all of which was in preparation for the Son to come down to earth and among a monotheistic culture.

 

[amazing grace]

computer is messed up - duplicate post

 

[amazing grace]

I believe that as the Son of God (not the 2nd person of the Trinity) Christ Michael sent Gabriel from heaven to announce his coming. Being God its correct to say that God the Son sent them both.

I also believe that Christ Michael sent Melchizedek to establish the covenant with Abram all of which was in preparation for the Son to come down to earth and among a monotheistic culture.

There is no "Christ Michael".

God ordained Melchizedek - Melchizedek was King of Salem and priest of God Most High. Yes, it was a monotheistic culture which is why Jesus is not God nor is Jesus an angel, i.e. Michael.

 

[Colt]

There is no "Christ Michael".

God ordained Melchizedek - Melchizedek was King of Salem and priest of God Most High. Yes, it was a monotheistic culture which is why Jesus is not God nor is Jesus an angel, i.e. Michael.

Its my belief that the Michael of the Book of Revelation isn't an angel, it's the heavenly name of Jesus. John saw this in his vision on Patmos.

Melchizedek is a son of God who suddenly appears and disappears in history because he incarnate as a full-grown man like Adam and Eve.

Melchizedek and Abraham
(Genesis 14:17–24)

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High.a He met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness.” Then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.

4Consider how great Melchizedek was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder. 5Now the law commands the sons of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their brothers—though they too are descended from Abraham. 6But Melchizedek, who did not trace his descent from Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And indisputably, the lesser is blessed by the greater.

8In the case of the Levites, mortal men collect the tenth; but in the case of Melchizedek, it is affirmed that he lives on. 9And so to speak, Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham. 10For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.

 

[amazing grace]

Its my belief that the Michael of the Book of Revelation isn't an angel, it's the heavenly name of Jesus. John saw this in his vision on Patmos.

Oh . . .

Melchizedek is a son of God who suddenly appears and disappears in history because he incarnate as a full-grown man like Adam and Eve.

Melchizedek and Abraham
(Genesis 14:17–24)

1This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High.a He met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness.” Then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.

4Consider how great Melchizedek was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder. 5Now the law commands the sons of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their brothers—though they too are descended from Abraham. 6But Melchizedek, who did not trace his descent from Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And indisputably, the lesser is blessed by the greater.

8In the case of the Levites, mortal men collect the tenth; but in the case of Melchizedek, it is affirmed that he lives on. 9And so to speak, Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham. 10For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.

Melchizedek was a man chosen by God as priest, also the King of Salem. That whole section you bolded refers to being chosen as priest WITHOUT the genealogy of being a descendant of Aaron which according to OT law the priest came from the tribe of Levi, i.e. the Levitical Priesthood yet this man was priest of God Most High and like the Son of God because Jesus also became a high priest WITHOUT the genealogy of being a descendant of the Levitical Priesthood but was from the tribe of Judah.

It says it all in the context: v6) But this man who does not have his descent from them (the tribe of Levi) received tithes from Abraham and blessed him . . . v5) And those descendants of Levi receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people. . ." v11) Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical Priesthood (for under if the people received the law), what further need would there had been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one after the order of Aaron? v13) For the one of whom these things re spoken belonged to another tribe from which no one has ever heard. v14) For it is evident that our Lord was descended from the tribe of Judah.. . v15) This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent . . .

That is what is meant by "without Father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life" - No direct lineage (genealogy) to Aaron, i.e. the tribe of Levi, i.e. to the Levitical Priesthood.

 

[Colt]

Oh . . .

Melchizedek was a man chosen by God as priest, also the King of Salem. That whole section you bolded refers to being chosen as priest WITHOUT the genealogy of being a descendant of Aaron which according to OT law the priest came from the tribe of Levi, i.e. the Levitical Priesthood yet this man was priest of God Most High and like the Son of God because Jesus also became a high priest WITHOUT the genealogy of being a descendant of the Levitical Priesthood but was from the tribe of Judah.

It says it all in the context: v6) But this man who does not have his descent from them (the tribe of Levi) received tithes from Abraham and blessed him . . . v5) And those descendants of Levi receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people. . ." v11) Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical Priesthood (for under if the people received the law), what further need would there had been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one after the order of Aaron? v13) For the one of whom these things re spoken belonged to another tribe from which no one has ever heard. v14) For it is evident that our Lord was descended from the tribe of Judah.. . v15) This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent . . .

That is what is meant by "without Father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life" - No direct lineage (genealogy) to Aaron, i.e. the tribe of Levi, i.e. to the Levitical Priesthood.

Right, they didn’t know where Melchizedek came from. Bloodlines and authority were everything in Judaism. So they had to fit him in to their religious story. He was like one of the celestial beings who met with Abraham at the Oaks of Mamre.

 

[amazing grace]

Right, they didn’t know where Melchizedek came from. Bloodlines and authority were everything in Judaism. So they had to fit him in to their religious story. He was like one of the celestial beings who met with Abraham at the Oaks of Mamre.

Oh well . . . as usual we don't agree! Melchizedek was a man, a king, chosen to be a priest by God not a celestial being. And he was brought into Hebrews to relate to Jesus, a man, chosen to be a high priest and king of the Jews out from among another tribe not descending from Levi, the Levitical Priesthood.

 

[Soapy]

I read it that Jesus, the one who was anointed and sent as the Christ, was also anointed at a particular time to do the work of the Christ. It is not that He suddenly became the Christ when anointed at His baptism to do the work He was sent to do.

Where did you read that?

And, to be Anointed is to become ‘Christ: The Anointed one’.

 

[Brian2]

Where did you read that?

And, to be Anointed is to become ‘Christ: The Anointed one’.

What I meant is "the way I read it is". So the way I read the Bible is that way.
I read that Simeon saw the Christ (baby Jesus) and that the angel told the shepherds that the baby Jesus is the Lord and Christ and see that it is ridiculous to call those prophecies, unless God is a God of confusion.
Then I see Jesus (the Christ) being anointed with the Holy Spirit at His baptism.
I know this does not mean that He is being anointed to be the Christ, because He already is the Christ, so it must mean that He was anointed to do the work that He (the Christ) was sent to do.
Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”… (from Isa 61:1)

At 12 years old Jesus (the Christ) had made the mistake of wanting to go to do the work He was sent to do before He was anointed for that work with the Holy Spirit.
He knew at 12 years old that He was the Christ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it is just that He had not been anointed for the work.
Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit before Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit to do the work they were sent to do.
John 20:22 When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[freelight]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

Bravo

The Universal Father-God of all, is the One God of all,......no matter how you view or explain how the Son of God is RELATED to the One God All comes from 'God' and returns to 'God', since 'God' is all. One Absolute Reality IS,.....all else is relative, an expanding realm of consciousness where the Infinite Spirit plays in space-time...creating worlds without number to infinity. One Prime-Source Creator is at the Heart of the cosmos......all else is emenated from its universal Spirit and infinite intelligence.

If a Unit-Arian Christology works for you as more simple to understand, then it will serve you better than a more complex 'trinitarian' model...so long as the Father is worshipped in spirit and truth,....that is all that is essential,.....the heart and spirit of the believer.....not the 'model' of theology or doctrinal formulation necessarily....those are cosmetics. - 'God' is SPIRIT.

What is most universally accepted by most 'christiains' is that Jesus is the AGENT and representative of 'God' sent to man, to REVEAL 'God'. - all else is commentary and 'fill in the gap theology'.

'God' is just as unknowable as He is knowable, since his infinity will always transcend anything finite. So, the Unknown 'God' aspect of the divine Mystery will always BE, no matter how an individual point of consciousness relates to that 'God'. - flow with what you can relate with, and leave the rest to mystery - also know that your 'theology' may change and evolve in the flow of time. - revelation of truth is progressive.


~*~*~

 

[Brian2]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

I feel an affinity with what @freelight said and do not think that God is going to reject people for what they have been taught and accept about the nature of God and the Trinity and who Jesus is. Maybe I should be concerned that I feel this way.
It is good that you realised that Jesus remains Jesus no matter what.
It is unfortunate that if you are a JW that their theology and their particular group is supposed to be exclusively the right group and the only thing that God wants us to do according to them, is to go from door to door spreading their gospel, being obedient to their leaders as if their leaders are the Lord, the Spirit we are called to be obedient to.
I also see Jesus as God's Son, but of course as the only Son who has come from God and has had no beginning.
We know He has had no beginning because we are told that all things that have come into existence, have come into existence through Him. (John 1:3)
We also know that He will be King over the Kingdom forever (Daniel 7:13,14, Isa 9:6,7 etc)
Jesus reigns by Himself and God His Father serves Him by putting all Jesus enemies under His feet. Then the Kingdom, which has been returned to it's original state of full obedience to God through the salvation work of Jesus, is given back to God the Father and all things become as they were in eternity past, with the eternal Son being subject to His Father who is now also His God (because Jesus is human). (1Cor 15) But as Daniel 7 tells us, Jesus dominion is forever over the Kingdom. He rules with His Father.
I suppose all that stuff is anathema to you now even if imo the Bible is plain about it. Theology sometimes becomes a tangled web and a complex maize because of the things that humans add to it or take from it.
I don't want to begin a discussion or debate on it here however, just saying what I think.

 

[freelight]

I feel an affinity with what @freelight said and do not think that God is going to reject people for what they have been taught and accept about the nature of God and the Trinity and who Jesus is. Maybe I should be concerned that I feel this way.

All can read the Bible and make their own interpretation, by study and meditation,....open to divine guidance, thats all any can do. It also stands though that how one interprets the Bible may be influenced by his upbringing, culture, exposure to any particular religious group or cult among other factors of is own reading. As an eclectic....I dive in and research many different schools and points of view on a subject, and keep evolving my views,....all perspectives are subject to change with ongoing revelation or better information.

It is good that you realised that Jesus remains Jesus no matter what.
It is unfortunate that if you are a JW that their theology and their particular group is supposed to be exclusively the right group and the only thing that God wants us to do according to them, is to go from door to door spreading their gospel, being obedient to their leaders as if their leaders are the Lord, the Spirit we are called to be obedient to.

Well, prolly not too different than some other protestant christian denominations out there, in one way or another - and yes, Jesus is who we believe he is, - our take on Jesus will be conditioned by so many things even if we claim to have a met him in person in person even, all we have is our experience of the encounter to relate...otherwise everything is still a matter of faith and partial knowledge. Note there also people who leave Christianity entirely or partly, and are now ex-christians....adopting other religious traditions, or become atheistic/agnostic in certain respects. Some appear to be quite happy without 'religion', 'God' or 'dogmas' to believe in.

I also see Jesus as God's Son, but of course as the only Son who has come from God and has had no beginning.
We know He has had no beginning because we are told that all things that have come into existence, have come into existence through Him. (John 1:3)

Well, we presume that all in space-time creation, all forms and expressions of the Creator come from an uncreated essence (that which is prior to space-time, form or dimension)....so we can assume the 'logos' of 'God' was always with-in 'God' (whether you see the 'logos' as being personal or non-personal)...so is in that sense 'eternal/timeless'....but is revealed and given expression in the movement of creation....so the 'logos' is prior to space-time-creation, but is the directing intelligence, 'wisdom-logic' that orders existence in the material worlds. Its logical to say 'God' created all things THRU him (or the logos)....as the 'creative agent/agency'....and even so, no matter our 'Christology'.....its always both 'God' and 'Christ' co-operating in the realm of creation and redemption.

I flesh out a little on this here, as far as Jesus having a beginning, which spurred the Arian Controversy. - alot is just semantics IMO.

We also know that He will be King over the Kingdom forever (Daniel 7:13,14, Isa 9:6,7 etc)
Jesus reigns by Himself and God His Father serves Him by putting all Jesus enemies under His feet. Then the Kingdom, which has been returned to it's original state of full obedience to God through the salvation work of Jesus, is given back to God the Father and all things become as they were in eternity past, with the eternal Son being subject to His Father who is now also His God (because Jesus is human). (1Cor 15) But as Daniel 7 tells us, Jesus dominion is forever over the Kingdom. He rules with His Father.
I suppose all that stuff is anathema to you now even if imo the Bible is plain about it. Theology sometimes becomes a tangled web and a complex maize because of the things that humans add to it or take from it.
I don't want to begin a discussion or debate on it here however, just saying what I think.

- A holistic Christology recognizes both the union and distinction of 'Father' and 'Son', no matter the metaphysics imposed as in more complicated trinitary formulas.......its always 'God' working thru His SON by the Spirit. One can keep a purer Unitarian view and be just as well, or a traditional Trinitarian one (if that floats your boat),...to me the lines of demarcation fade as one recognizes Source, - it is all 'God' anyways, no matter how your differentiate, divide, splice or dice the Deity - One omnipresent absolute etermal reality IS.....from which the phenomena of creation appears in space-time.....there being one Universal MIND guiding all things along by its 'logos' (guiding logic, informing intelligence).

'God' always looks at the heart, the inward parts....your purty and integrity....your worth-ship (how you live and recognize values and appropriate means)....so I dont think 'God' is so concerned about what religious cult or sect you happen to currently be a part of, or not. Each soul is where they are at at this point in eternity, with an infinitude of possible timelines to traverse in their spiritual journey. - the Mighty I AM is ever omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient by its own NATURE and scope of influence..... available to any who call or re-turn their attention to Him. This holds no matter what form of belief you may or may not hold, which will always be subjec to change as long as there is more to learn or be revealed.


~*~*~

 

[cataway]

I feel an affinity with what @freelight said and do not think that God is going to reject people for what they have been taught and accept about the nature of God and the Trinity

Rev. 18:4.
(if you think God does not care...think again)

 

[Brian2]

Rev. 18:4.
(if you think God does not care...think again)

So God's people are in Babylon and God warns us to come out so that we do not share in her sins and get her plagues.
I don't know if the plagues are going to include loss of eternal life in the next life, do you?

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

 

[Brian2]

Well, we presume that all in space-time creation, all forms and expressions of the Creator come from an uncreated essence (that which is prior to space-time, form or dimension)....so we can assume the 'logos' of 'God' was always with-in 'God' (whether you see the 'logos' as being personal or non-personal)...so is in that sense 'eternal/timeless'....but is revealed and given expression in the movement of creation....so the 'logos' is prior to space-time-creation, but is the directing intelligence, 'wisdom-logic' that orders existence in the material worlds. Its logical to say 'God' created all things THRU him (or the logos)....as the 'creative agent/agency'....and even so, no matter our 'Christology'.....its always both 'God' and 'Christ' co-operating in the realm of creation and redemption.

I flesh out a little on this here, as far as Jesus having a beginning, which spurred the Arian Controversy. - alot is just semantics IMO.

There is a lot of semantics and a lot of untrue history. The Apostolic Fathers after in the late 1st century and early 2nd did write that Jesus is their God, thus showing the beliefs of the church at that time and before, during the time of the apostles.
We certainly don't have to be able to understand it to accept it.

 

[Sargonski]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

"Found out Jesus was not YHWH" did you ? now that is interesting .. how did you come to that conclusion if I may ask ?

And .. was Jesus so Perfect ? -- "Why do you call me Good -- Only one is Good" who art in heaven or some such thing .. that one not being YHWH either...

"Everything created through Him" ---- Hmmmm .. can't go with that one .. does not jive with the Platonic concept of "The Logos" referenced in John 1 - a savage misinterpretation in modern Bibles "Word" - does not equal logos when the word Logos is used in a religious context. Its a bit theologically complicated but .. just because Jesus is "Gods Word" .. and that "Gods Word" created the universe .. does not mean that the universe was created through Jesus.

Jesus is one emination from the Godhead -- and thus "Gods Word" a physical manifestation of .. and representation of God's word .. literally as this was the purpose of Jesus .. to bring God's word .. to Be God's Word


or rather -- that particular set of God's words .. OK .. Jesus does not represent the sum total of God's word.. in the Platonic Sense .. so we have the Jesus "Gods Word" being one thing .. God creating the universe is another .. a separate emination ..not related to the Jesus emination .. but all God's Word .. one in the same.

Aparently a number of Popes .. both past and more recent .. were self avowed platonists .. held similar perspective.

 

[cataway]

So God's people are in Babylon and God warns us to come out so that we do not share in her sins and get her plagues.
I don't know if the plagues are going to include loss of eternal life in the next life, do you?

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

right now there is a separating work/action going on . people are encouraged to read an study the bible ,test out what is true . many will be saying Jesus is the Christ yet that means little .the ones that do recognize the difference see the difference and leave false religion which is ''Babylon the great'' the one that is misleading if possible the entire world