Spiderman
Veteran Member
True! The New Testament even justifies slavery. To condemn slavery one must cherry pick the Scriptures. All Christians I've ever met cherry pick the Scriptures
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For Abrahamic Religions
- Thread starter Ubon
- Start date
tonemonkey
Member
Agreed. People will choose OT stuff and apply it to themselves. Paul spoke of altering our behavior around some people because they had decided certain things were sinful. A person might consider eating meat a sin so Paul said not to eat meat around them so that person might not stumble. Cherry picking is a problem only if somebody does it to get away with something that is obviously prohibited.
tonemonkey
Member
Again, the Greek word used for slavery implies indentured servitude not forced slavery. It's important to understand what the source language means for certain things.
tonemonkey
Member
I'm not justifying slavery at all! At that time there were people who would sell their own freedom for a time period. That's not the same as forced slavery at all. There were rules and regulations for it.
But, you can see it how you like. Honestly, I could explain it and you might still decide I'm saying something I'm not based on your filter. If you're convinced that all Christians are hypocritical liars then nothing I say as a Christian is going to change your mind.
tonemonkey
Member
If you see the word "slave" and it only can mean one thing to you, then you'll disagree. Paul said he was a slave to Christ - obviously he meant that he had given himself to Christ, not that Christ had captured him by force against his will.
tonemonkey
Member
I know that there are those in history (and today) that misunderstand what the NT refers to as "slave" and have used that to justify forced slavery and selling of people. That's not at all what the NT is referring to.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
tonemonkey
Member
I don't know you, but from your response here you don't seem like somebody who is interested in learning new things. If I'm wrong, you might want to respond differently to things.
tonemonkey
Member
As to taking the Bible literally or not, sometimes it's important to find out what the word in the original language was. When it says "slave" in the NT the Greek word refers to indentured servitude. This would have been a voluntary agreement with a contract and a set time. It doesn't refer to forced slavery, like the slavery in the American South and many other places. It's unfortunate that it was translated from the original Greek in to English as "slave", but even then I don't believe the translators were trying to change the meaning to excuse forced slavery.
Here's a good article on this, if you're interested.
Does the Bible condone slavery?
Here's a good article on this, if you're interested.
Does the Bible condone slavery?
tonemonkey
Member
Which would be morally better - choosing to work on a farm or being forced to work on a farm?
One is voluntary exchange of labor for something, and the other is involuntary extraction of labor.
I think the thing to understand about the Bible is that it's not a handbook on how to make life on Earth better. The main thrust of the whole thing - all 66 books taken as a whole - is that we were designed for eternity, we are on Earth for a short time (comparatively), and our time on Earth is supposed to be preparation for our time in eternity after death. What we believe determines where we will spend eternity, and (in the case of Heaven) what we will be doing in eternity.
I didn't fully get this until fairly recently. I've been a Christian for around 25 years, and I have spent the past decade or so really interested in national politics. All that my focus on politics did is make me frustrated and distracted. Then I realized that Paul and the other apostles who wrote letters to the churches in the NT ever mentioned anything about politics or changing culture directly. Paul never mentioned anything about Roman economic policy or political issues.
Jesus didn't preach about equal rights, or gender issues, or whether capitalism or socialism was better.
The whole NT is about how we as individual Believers should act toward each other, the example we should set for non-believers, about God's grace and plan for our salvation, about how we should relate with God, and what is coming next.
So, when "slaves" are instructed on how to relate with their "masters" it is said from a perspective that this time on Earth is but a vapor and it's all about what's coming next - not so much about our condition here on Earth.
If it was about our Earthly life then I think Paul would have written at least a little bit about the plight of Roman prisoners and the need to petition the Roman government to improve conditions. Instead, he joyfully endured his imprisonment and the prisoners and jailer became Believers.
You know, that "this life is a mere prelude to eternity" attitude is one thing about Christianity (and Islam) that I find really off-putting. It leads to this defeatist outlook, as if this life doesn't really matter when the truth is, this life is all we're really promised. You're really sauing that God had nothing to say about bettering ourselves here? That's sad that you would think that. Why would he create this entire universe and this glorious planet if it doesn't really matter and we're just supposed to live for our deaths? Why should we bother to do anything at all, in this point of view? I find that disgusting and an insult to the Divine.
And you're wrong about slavery in the Bible. People could be sold into slavery for life and conquered people could be taken as slaves (which Yahweh is said to have commanded): Slavery in the Bible - RationalWiki
tonemonkey
Member
Totally don't get me wrong, we're supposed to enjoy our lives! Song of Solomon is all about enjoying your wife and sex! If a Christian only thinks about eternity and doesn't live the best life they can here on Earth then they're missing out on the Earthly gifts God has given us.
If anything we're supposed to live balanced lives and have fun. I'm not at all trying to say that we shouldn't make things better here on Earth - in fact, many of the greatest humanitarian changes that have happened throughout human history have been brought about by, or started by Christians. Here's an article about that. We're supposed to be doing all we can to make things better for others.
All I was trying to say is that we're supposed to keep in mind that this world is not really our home - we're temporary residents. This life isn't about building my kingdom, amassing stuff, gaining glory for me, etc. This life is supposed to be about building His kingdom by serving others and sharing His good news. I want to enjoy my life, but keep in mind what my purpose in this life.
When I was talking about "slavery" before it was NT time period indentured servitude. There was slavery in the OT during the time when the Israelites were conquering the promised land, but that was allowed for a set time period. It wasn't an allowance of slavery in general. Christians have fought against slavery for a long time. Anybody who has used the Bible to excuse or condone slavery doesn't understand the whole of Scripture.
Yes it's fine, logic and reason said it's ok.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe a person who follows himself is following a fool.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Haha! I believe the joke is: If everyone jumped off a cliff would you do it also?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe a Messianic Jew is just as free from the law as any Christian. I can see how some would wish to retain some of the traditions but that is a personal preference not a requirement.