Folk Spirituality vs Universalism

[EyeofOdin]

I'm a little bit split on this issue, and I really do see both sides.

I see the logic behind Folk Spirituality, or Ethnic Religion, because one's heritage is one's identity, and I believe that the gods of his or her heritage are firmly entwined with the practitioner.

On the other hand, I also believe that all indigenous religions at their core shared the same beliefs: veneration of the land, dead and celestial beings. These beliefs were expressed in ways that fit the culture and language of the people who practiced them. All indigenous religions had creator or heavenly beings, gods of nature, the seasons and fertility and also funerals, and sometimes ancestral rites, to honor the deceased ancestors.

Also I believe that because various deities have a common origin in a religion they descended from (examples being Zeus, Jupiter and Tyr and Freyr and Prajapati) they are the same deities with different lore and language although common, slightly different as they evolved separately as the people, who were originally one tribe or people, separated into different cultures.

With that said, there is also the identification with the Lore of, and the language that is applied to, the gods that one comes from. Calling the sky god Jupiter is appropriate by someone who is of Hellenic descent, but might be lacking the ancestral connection.

Your thoughts?

 

[Sees]

Hey brother im in a hurry so will probably add more later...

It is all-encompassing of whatever is healthy, good, true, beneficial, etc. No either this or that, strict absolutes, or clear cut duality.

Ancestral, cultural, and just plain human and divine all rolled up together. As well as living and evolving, not a freeze-frame of the past eras.

If we look at the way most stuff works in reality this is reflective of it, regardless of preferences and beliefs. I do see the esoteric inner truths of higher levels being transcendent of cultural labels and tradition but each distinct individual one is important on it's own as a way to elucidate certain things and safeguard through plurality.

In a very real sense the traditions as a real path, life-way are passed down through blood/genes, culture, childrearing, etc. so they will tend to speak most to us and allow for wholeness on an additional level. They stay in motion regardless of specific religious or spiritual truth claims certain people make.

Both the extreme sides of folkish or universalist don't gel well with my philosophy, spirituality, or way I see historical tradition.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'm a little bit split on this issue, and I really do see both sides.

I see the logic behind Folk Spirituality, or Ethnic Religion, because one's heritage is one's identity, and I believe that the gods of his or her heritage are firmly entwined with the practitioner.

On the other hand, I also believe that all indigenous religions at their core shared the same beliefs: veneration of the land, dead and celestial beings. These beliefs were expressed in ways that fit the culture and language of the people who practiced them. All indigenous religions had creator or heavenly beings, gods of nature, the seasons and fertility and also funerals, and sometimes ancestral rites, to honor the deceased ancestors.

Also I believe that because various deities have a common origin in a religion they descended from (examples being Zeus, Jupiter and Tyr and Freyr and Prajapati) they are the same deities with different lore and language although common, slightly different as they evolved separately as the people, who were originally one tribe or people, separated into different cultures.

With that said, there is also the identification with the Lore of, and the language that is applied to, the gods that one comes from. Calling the sky god Jupiter is appropriate by someone who is of Hellenic descent, but might be lacking the ancestral connection.

Your thoughts?

[FONT=&quot]First, I think indigenous people venerated THEIR land, THEIR ancestors—not those of other people. And not all recognized “celestial” beings beyond sun, moon and sometimes stars—but those were often seen in conjunction with clouds and other weather phenomena—along with the entities and phenomena and rituals you mention. Their versions of such entities were still connected to what they knew: their land and the spirits they encountered there, and their ancestors. Unless they were a well-traveled people, they probably didn’t imagine a universe much larger than a few times the area they knew, or heard about from their neighbors (who also likely didn’t travel much). Even those who did travel great distances apparently still rarely considered the earth to be anything near as big as it really is, until fairly recently.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]I think that early indigenous people recognized for example a storm god/dess as only a local spirit, very powerful, but only existing in relation to the limited place they lived. They didn’t realize that a storm might extend many thousands of miles—their worldview couldn’t take in that span of space because they couldn’t experience it. Likewise, the Sun and Moon only came up over the area they knew. “The Earth” that they knew was only the area where their people lived, and where the neighboring groups lived. They did not, could not, think of an all-encompassing Earth God/dess, because they lacked the experience necessary to build the concept of a globe, a world, a planet, and a spirit that governs all of that, rather than just the area where they live.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]I think as society grew, as farming developed, and civilization spread, people realized that some spirits they experienced really were just limited to certain areas, like the area around the village where they lived, but that others extended over much larger areas—because their experience eventually included larger and larger areas: the sun, moon, stars, storms, winds—these things traveled far, over many villages and (eventually) kingdoms, far beyond the small areas where most people lived all of their lives. That’s when the idea of the greater gods, like those of Olympus, or of the other pantheons, began to develop.[/FONT]

 

[EyeofOdin]

[FONT=&quot]First, I think indigenous people venerated THEIR land, THEIR ancestors—not those of other people. And not all recognized “celestial” beings beyond sun, moon and sometimes stars—but those were often seen in conjunction with clouds and other weather phenomena—along with the entities and phenomena and rituals you mention. Their versions of such entities were still connected to what they knew: their land and the spirits they encountered there, and their ancestors. Unless they were a well-traveled people, they probably didn’t imagine a universe much larger than a few times the area they knew, or heard about from their neighbors (who also likely didn’t travel much). Even those who did travel great distances apparently still rarely considered the earth to be anything near as big as it really is, until fairly recently.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I think that early indigenous people recognized for example a storm god/dess as only a local spirit, very powerful, but only existing in relation to the limited place they lived. They didn’t realize that a storm might extend many thousands of miles—their worldview couldn’t take in that span of space because they couldn’t experience it. Likewise, the Sun and Moon only came up over the area they knew. “The Earth” that they knew was only the area where their people lived, and where the neighboring groups lived. They did not, could not, think of an all-encompassing Earth God/dess, because they lacked the experience necessary to build the concept of a globe, a world, a planet, and a spirit that governs all of that, rather than just the area where they live.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I think as society grew, as farming developed, and civilization spread, people realized that some spirits they experienced really were just limited to certain areas, like the area around the village where they lived, but that others extended over much larger areas—because their experience eventually included larger and larger areas: the sun, moon, stars, storms, winds—these things traveled far, over many villages and (eventually) kingdoms, far beyond the small areas where most people lived all of their lives. That’s when the idea of the greater gods, like those of Olympus, or of the other pantheons, began to develop.[/FONT]

So if Gaia only applies to the land of Greece, does that mean that someone in the Americas has to pay tribute to a Native American earth deity? Regardless of his Hellenic ancestry? Or does Gaia inhabit the land just below people who are from that spot on the map called Greece?

Or if someone who's Anglo lives in India, does he or she honor Indra as Indra is native to India? Or does Thor transport himself from Europe just to take care of the Thunder just above an Anglo.

What if someone's mixed? Like pretty much everyone on the planet today, like Half Irish and Half Mongolian. Does The Dagda take care of that person's spiritual needs or does Tenger?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So if Gaia only applies to the land of Greece, does that mean that someone in the Americas has to pay tribute to a Native American earth deity? Regardless of his Hellenic ancestry? Or does Gaia inhabit the land just below people who are from that spot on the map called Greece?

Or if someone who's Anglo lives in India, does he or she honor Indra as Indra is native to India? Or does Thor transport himself from Europe just to take care of the Thunder just above an Anglo.

What if someone's mixed? Like pretty much everyone on the planet today, like Half Irish and Half Mongolian. Does The Dagda take care of that person's spiritual needs or does Tenger?

lol! Got me!? These are the same kinds of questions I ask about deity, too. I have very few answers, but lots of speculations.

Questions back: Do the deities really go by one name, or do they recognize that different groups of humans call them different things, honor them in different ways, etc.? Do the deities recognize ANY of the geographical, mental, cultural or other categories and boundaries that we as humans have? Do they care if someone's ancestors called them by a given name, or conceived of and depicted them in a certain way? Do they care if someone who does not have ancestors who called them by a certain name use that name? Are deities point sources of consciousness like us humans seem to be, or do they have multiple points of consciousness, or a continuous presence over space and/or time?

As an animist, I am familiar with the spirits that live in my locality, as well as spirits that exist seemingly only in other areas where I do or have traveled and/or spent time. I am also aware that some spirits exist that transcend my locality, and even all the localities I have ever been in. I find that I live in a geographic location distant from where my ancestors who have passed lived (and many of them lived and died at locations distant from where their ancestors lived, and so on...), so I do not find many of my ancestors around me, although I do from time to time. But I am also a product of my current culture, which has a concept of "earth" as a globe in space--apparently much different than most earlier peoples' concept. I therefore conceive of spirits of varying "spans," such as the spirit of single storm cloud that may pass over my area, a spirit of storm system that includes that storm cloud among others, a spirit of storm systems that occur in particular regions (such as mid-latitude storm systems), and a spirit of storm systems all over the planet. I can conceive of them as individuals, or as different aspects of the same larger spirit, and even parts of a larger spirit that includes all the weather and other systems of the earth. I don't know for certain whether any of my ancestors would agree or understand my understanding. And I don't know if those spirits think of themselves in anything like the terms we humans think about them; I rather think not, because their experiences are so different than ours.

 

[Sees]

Here is something from the Prose Edda for a bit of a historical take -

"Then said High One: "It would take a vast amount of knowledge to cover them all, but it is swiftest to say, that most of the names have been given (To him)because, the many different nations speaking different tongues in the world, all wanted to change his name into their own tongue in order to address and pray (to him) for themselves"

Of course nothing is absolute or definitive and lore, myths, legends are mostly allegorical guides to truths.

Respect for uniqueness and differences while looking, discovering, experiencing universal and a certain traditions truths, spirits, Gods, wisdom, etc. is best. The complexity of the theology and overall religious philosophy of our ancient polytheistic and animistic ancestors means no clear cut answers to which specific spirits, beings, Gods are universal, local, ancestral, impersonal "force", etc.

The middle way of balance is almost always best I think without holding to yesterday or today's understanding as tomorrow's dogmatic cut-in-stone truth.

Edit: also with the concepts of plurality and multiplicity in our traditions there are many times when you ask is something a, b, c, or d and the answer is Yes! The different ways the Gods, spirit, soul, etc. can be in concept don't become exclusive like traditional black and white philosophy... the beauty of nature, divinity, reality as a whole is the inclusivity and possibilities.