First verses Book of Mormon/Bible comparisons

[Hevenly Heathen]

Does not the Bible provide the size and scale of the ark? Does not the Bible provide the exact length of the FLOOD? Does not the Bible provide how many of each animal was to be put on the ark?

Many ancients used numbers to impress. 7 was typically a number used to express much or many. As to the exact size of the ark... have you ever tried to see how large it would have been? And then to have taken two of EVERY animal aboard? It wouldn't work, not big enough.

What about the story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishnem?

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

The stores found in the book of Mormon are not found anywhere else. There is no collaborating evidence. JESUS has to do it for you because you are not perfect. ONLY GOD is perfect. To pay for it yourself means you go to hell. I'm sure you don't want that and neither do I.

Prove to me that this terrible Hell exists, and I may be afraid. But why would GOD punish a man who is willing to accept responsibility? Why cast him out for taking blame rightfully his, for the willingness to have justice upon him? If GOD tells us to love and forgive and to be just, is it just for him to cast us out and not forgive?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Does not the Bible provide the size and scale of the ark?

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft.
The Epic of Gilgamesh ark was 6 stories high and square.[/FONT]

Does not the Bible provide the exact length of the FLOOD?

No, it does not. But it does tell us how long it rained.
Noah's rain lasted for 40 days and 40 nights.
The Epic of Gilgamesh had rain for 6 days and 6 nights.

Does not the Bible provide how many of each animal was to be put on the ark?

Biblical account, 7 of every clean animal, 2 (male and female) of all unclean animals.
Epic of Gilgamesh, 2 of every kind of animal, (male and female)

So what's your point?

 

[LittleNipper]

Many ancients used numbers to impress. 7 was typically a number used to express much or many. As to the exact size of the ark... have you ever tried to see how large it would have been? And then to have taken two of EVERY animal aboard? It wouldn't work, not big enough.

What about the story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishnem?

Of the clean animals, Noah was to take seven each (according to the Bible). Well, it is interesting that all the people that exist today are all related to just 8 people and from what I gather, Noah had only the three sons. So we are all actually the end product of only 3 couples. How many lions, tigers, and bears does one really need? How many dogs and cats? Since they are all unclean, then all today are likely the end product of only one pair of each. Utnapishnem (in the Gilgamesh story) and his wife were rewared with eternal life for their sacrafices to the gods. It also rained only 6 days and nights and not 40. Sounds like a someone is wrong, and I believe the story of Noah.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Sounds like a someone is wrong, and I believe the story of Noah.

So it all comes down to your personal belief then. You actually have no 'science' as you claimed to support your belief in the Biblical account over the Epics account. Correct?

 

[zomg]

I love it when a person froths at the mouth when Nephi slays Laban...only to go ahead and brush aside the tens of thousands slaughtered in the Old Testament.

And all the other stuff.

:areyoucra

 

[tumbleweed41]

I love it when a person froths at the mouth when Nephi slays Laban...only to go ahead and brush aside the tens of thousands slaughtered in the Old Testament.

And all the other stuff.

:areyoucra

Exactly.
Now personally, I do not hold to any revealed revelation. But the hypocrisy of bashing one revelation, while ignoring the flaws in your own was well pointed out in the Bible itself.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Of the clean animals, Noah was to take seven each (according to the Bible). Well, it is interesting that all the people that exist today are all related to just 8 people and from what I gather, Noah had only the three sons. So we are all actually the end product of only 3 couples. How many lions, tigers, and bears does one really need? How many dogs and cats? Since they are all unclean, then all today are likely the end product of only one pair of each. Utnapishnem (in the Gilgamesh story) and his wife were rewared with eternal life for their sacrafices to the gods. It also rained only 6 days and nights and not 40. Sounds like a someone is wrong, and I believe the story of Noah.

Mitochondrial DNA can be traced back to 8 sources, which is eight individuals, but it is female, so how likely is it that there were eight females on Noah's ship not EVER maternally related?

And you have yet to explain how two of each species could fit on the ark. You grimaced at it.

And, once again, numbers in ancient times weren't exact. 40 represents a lot. Besides, if a story is thousands of years old, do exact numbers matter? How do you know they weren't a product of mistranslation?

And you keep dodging this: Have you actually studied the BoM, or are you just bashing because of ignorance and a superiority complex?

 

[LittleNipper]

So it all comes down to your personal belief then. You actually have no 'science' as you claimed to support your belief in the Biblical account over the Epics account. Correct?

You've produced no scientific evidence to the contrary. Noah's ark was bigger and the rain went on for 40 days and the whole world was covered with water for a year. The Biblical story is far more logical. Fossils certainly could have developed in a year.

 

[LittleNipper]

Mitochondrial DNA can be traced back to 8 sources, which is eight individuals, but it is female, so how likely is it that there were eight females on Noah's ship not EVER maternally related?

And you have yet to explain how two of each species could fit on the ark. You grimaced at it.

And, once again, numbers in ancient times weren't exact. 40 represents a lot. Besides, if a story is thousands of years old, do exact numbers matter? How do you know they weren't a product of mistranslation?

And you keep dodging this: Have you actually studied the BoM, or are you just bashing because of ignorance and a superiority complex?

Not really, I see a kind called finch. Darwin thought he saw several species of finches. The fact the of the matter is that all the finches Darwin supposed were separate species are all capable of interbreeding...

 

[tumbleweed41]

You've produced no scientific evidence to the contrary. Noah's ark was bigger and the rain went on for 40 days and the whole world was covered with water for a year. The Biblical story is far more logical. Fossils certainly could have developed in a year.

But I never claimed scientific evidence for the Epic.
You claimed scientific evidence was actually contained in the Biblical Flood story.
Still waiting for that.:sleep:
(BTW,fossil records disprove your flood story, but that is for another thread...)

What we do have evidence of is an early story, remade and copied, whether or not it is more 'logical' is irrelevant.
Exactly what you accuse the BoM of doing.
Remember, with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

You have missed addressing this point: "Mitochondrial DNA can be traced back to 8 sources, which is eight individuals, but it is female, so how likely is it that there were eight females on Noah's ship not EVER maternally related?"

I understand what you say about the finches, but the fact remains: a tiger and lion can breed, but the offspring is sterile, so you need two tigers and two lions. A grizzly bear cannot mate with a moose, so you need two of each. If we keep at this rate, even breaking down to the species which can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, the Ark still would not be large enough. How also would you explain the animals of the Americas? How did they travel across the ocean if Noah landed on Mt. Sinai?

I do believe in flood stories, but I do agree that they are not universal. And how can you base your faith in a set of scriptures on the fact that they share stories with other cultures? Does this not illustrate the likelihood that perhaps your set of stories were stolen from other peoples? I think it's refreshing and more suitable to have unique stories and anecdotes which fit the culture of the ones meant to inspire and teach. Having a universal religion would destroy cultures and degrade individuals.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Not really, I see a kind called finch. Darwin thought he saw several species of finches. The fact the of the matter is that all the finches Darwin supposed were separate species are all capable of interbreeding...

No, of the 13 defined species of Finches that Darwin observed, only two have been observed interbreeding, this is called hybridization.
(Geospiza scandens and G. fortis)

1. Large cactus finch (Geospiza conirostris)
2. Large ground finch (Geospiza magnirostris)
3. Medium ground finch (Geospiza fortis)
4. Cactus finch (Geospiza scandens)
5. Sharp-beaked ground finch (Geospiza difficilis)
6. Small ground finch (Geospiza fuliginosa)
7. Woodpecker finch (Cactospiza pallida)
8. Vegetarian tree finch (Platyspiza crassirostris)
9. Medium tree finch (Camarhynchus pauper)
10. Large tree finch (Camarhynchus psittacula)
11. Small tree finch (Camarhynchus parvulus)
12. Warbler finch (Certhidia olivacea)
13. Mangrove finch (Cactospiza heliobates)

But that is for another thread...

 

[LittleNipper]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Epic of Gilgamesh ark was 6 stories high and square.[/FONT]
No, it does not. But it does tell us how long it rained.
Noah's rain lasted for 40 days and 40 nights.
The Epic of Gilgamesh had rain for 6 days and 6 nights.


Biblical account, 7 of every clean animal, 2 (male and female) of all unclean animals.
Epic of Gilgamesh, 2 of every kind of animal, (male and female)

So what's your point?

Noah's ark proportions are considered perfect to remain upright and seaworthy. Ever watch a block float? Do an experiment...

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

I don't believe he argued which was more seaworthy, just the different dimensions. Both would be seaworthy, though I'd rather sail the rectangular one, it would be more stable.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Noah's ark proportions are considered perfect to remain upright and seaworthy. Ever watch a block float? Do an experiment...

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. [/FONT]

According to nautical engineers the longest wooden vessel ever built was 360 feet in length and was not seaworthy. Because of the wave action of the sea only wooden ships shorter than this will be seaworthy.

So, there goes your scientific argument.

We are still left with two stories, one, the Biblical account, clearly a revised copy of the earlier Epic account.

Does this make the entire Bible false in your opinion?

 

[LittleNipper]

I don't believe he argued which was more seaworthy, just the different dimensions. Both would be seaworthy, though I'd rather sail the rectangular one, it would be more stable.

A block would not sit upright. I believe it would tend to sit with a pointed end down and up. It would also tend to tumble. So if the "god's" were into a good laugh, "they" would have suggested building a square cube... But GOD being perfect in ALL HIS ways, would know that a cube will not work..!

 

[LittleNipper]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Noah's ark was 3 stories high and rectangular in shape. Two estimated dimensions are 547 x 91 ft. and 450 x 75 ft. [/FONT]

According to nautical engineers the longest wooden vessel ever built was 360 feet in length and was not seaworthy. Because of the wave action of the sea only wooden ships shorter than this will be seaworthy.

So, there goes your scientific argument.

We are still left with two stories, one, the Biblical account, clearly a revised copy of the earlier Epic account.

Does this make the entire Bible false in your opinion?

We have no idea of what the length of the trees Noah was able to get. The ark really only had to float and remain stable. There was no need to steer it. There is also the reality that GOD protected HIS "barge," and so the currents and wave action in it location may have been rather calm.

If GOD would allow the Hebrews to walk through the Red Sea on dry land, the protection of an ark is NOTHING at all...

 

[tumbleweed41]

We have no idea of what the length of the trees Noah was able to get.

The length of the trees means nothing. What matters are the dimensions God told Noah to use.

The ark really only had to float and remain stable. There was no need to steer it. There is also the reality that GOD protected HIS "barge," and so the currents and wave action in it location may have been rather calm.

If GOD would allow the Hebrews to walk through the Red Sea on dry land, the protection of an ark is NOTHING at all...

Well, if we are going to throw in divine intervention...
It was NOTHING for the Gods to protect Utnapishtim and his passengers in their square box.
And if we are accounting for Gods intervention in all things....
It is no surprise that there is no historical evidence of the Hebrew tribe in America, or the cattle and horses.
It may be that God has hidden that evidence as well as he hid the evidence of a worldwide flood. Or the Ark itself. Or the evidence of Creation. Or a young Earth.

 

[LittleNipper]

No, of the 13 defined species of Finches that Darwin observed, only two have been observed interbreeding, this is called hybridization.
(Geospiza scandens and G. fortis)

1. Large cactus finch (Geospiza conirostris)
2. Large ground finch (Geospiza magnirostris)
3. Medium ground finch (Geospiza fortis)
4. Cactus finch (Geospiza scandens)
5. Sharp-beaked ground finch (Geospiza difficilis)
6. Small ground finch (Geospiza fuliginosa)
7. Woodpecker finch (Cactospiza pallida)
8. Vegetarian tree finch (Platyspiza crassirostris)
9. Medium tree finch (Camarhynchus pauper)
10. Large tree finch (Camarhynchus psittacula)
11. Small tree finch (Camarhynchus parvulus)
12. Warbler finch (Certhidia olivacea)
13. Mangrove finch (Cactospiza heliobates)

But that is for another thread...

Species that can interbreed are the same kind and really don't fit the bill (get it) for being separate species. Big nose people are just human as little nose people. One group may consider another group ugly but if ugly is all one has to choose from, then ugly it is. The two are of the same species...

Besides, apparently it's an evolutionist's myth that Darwin cared squat for finches. But they didn't tell me that in my public school "science" classes... They just spoke of Darwin's finches...