Fellow Christians: I Don't Think I Really Understand The Trinity

[obi one]

At the time of Constantine, the seat of power wasn't Rome -- it was Constantinople. Therefore, it's not the Roman power that established the canon and the Trinity doctrine, begun in Nicea, but the church's power.

Sojourner, I think you need to reduce your caffene intake. Constantine was the king of the Roman empire. Before Constantine, Rome had been split between the Western and Eastern Empire. He defeated 3 kings, and reunified the Roman Empire. It was by the power of the treasury and soldiers of the Roman empire that the Roman church was established. He also ruled over the city of Rome, which was in the Western portion of the empire. It was Constantine's power as the king of the Roman Empire, and the head of the Roman army, which allowed him to get rid of any bishops that didn't agree with whatever position he settled on.

Nicaea was simply the location of the summer palace of Constantine. He made everyone come to his summer home to work out a political compromise between Mithraism and Paul's "Christianity". The Trinity "doctrine" was pushed by the council members from Alexandria, and others, and didn't originate in Nicaea. Constantine's priest friend, was against the Trinity concept, and had to be banished along with Arius and others.

 

[obi one]

We can't clearly explain God, either. I guess on that basis, then, God is also garbage, untrue, and a blasphemy...

A babe would accept the Trinity without question or analysis. It's when we try to overanalyze it as adults that we get into trouble.

You might take a minute to read what is written in the bible, and then take a minute to read what you write. Mt 11:25 doesn't say that babes accept the Trinity concept without question, it reads that hidden things are "revealed to the babes". And Proverbs 20:25 clearly states that one must make inquirey before saying something is holy, otherwise it is a snare. I understand that you have been snared, because you have not made proper inquires, but must you be so insistant in your support of hollow doctrines, with no supportable foundation given. We know you have opinions, but must you push your unsupported opinions on everyone.

As for who God is, God is love. As for how you love God and your neighbor:
John 14:15," If you love me, keep my commandments.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, I think you need to reduce your caffene intake. Constantine was the king of the Roman empire. Before Constantine, Rome had been split between the Western and Eastern Empire. He defeated 3 kings, and reunified the Roman Empire. It was by the power of the treasury and soldiers of the Roman empire that the Roman church was established. He also ruled over the city of Rome, which was in the Western portion of the empire. It was Constantine's power as the king of the Roman Empire, and the head of the Roman army, which allowed him to get rid of any bishops that didn't agree with whatever position he settled on.

Nicaea was simply the location of the summer palace of Constantine. He made everyone come to his summer home to work out a political compromise between Mithraism and Paul's "Christianity". The Trinity "doctrine" was pushed by the council members from Alexandria, and others, and didn't originate in Nicaea. Constantine's priest friend, was against the Trinity concept, and had to be banished along with Arius and others.

Yeah, I know all this. I've taken several undergraduate and graduate courses in church history. What I'm saying is that it wasn't the "Roman church" then. It wasn't the "Roman church" until after 1054. Until then, it was "the church," with both East and West claiming seats of power. I'm trying to maintain a good separation between the unified church prior to 1054 and the Roman church post-1054.

 

[sojourner]

it reads that hidden things are "revealed to the babes".

My point still stands. Whatever is revealed to babes is generally taken at face value by them, since they lack analyzation skills.

As for who God is, God is love. As for how you love God and your neighbor:
John 14:15," If you love me, keep my commandments.

And the new commandment, revealed in John 13 is "love one another."

 

[obi one]

Yeah, I know all this. I've taken several undergraduate and graduate courses in church history. What I'm saying is that it wasn't the "Roman church" then. It wasn't the "Roman church" until after 1054. Until then, it was "the church," with both East and West claiming seats of power. I'm trying to maintain a good separation between the unified church prior to 1054 and the Roman church post-1054.

Your undergraduate work was about the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church separation. It was not about the disintegration of the Roman empire before Constantine reunified the empire. There was no Roman church before Constantine established the doctrines through the Nicene Council, and enforced them through the power of the state, all starting in 325 A.D.

 

[obi one]

My point still stands. Whatever is revealed to babes is generally taken at face value by them, since they lack analyzation skills.

And the new commandment, revealed in John 13 is "love one another."

I am not sure that your problem has been too much coffee. The "babes" refers to the children of God, not 3 year old toddlers. And revelation is about the Spirit of God revealing what is hidden, and not of one using analytical skills.

Keeping the commandments, by not killing your neighbor, lying to your neighbor, stealing from your neighbor, nor giving false testimony with respect to your neighbor, or coveting your neighbors goods, is a good start on loving your neighbor. Additional elements would be to make sure that the orphan and widow are looked after, and that justice is pursued. I am not sure I want to know your concept of "loving one another".

 

[jtartar]

Before I became a Baptist, I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses with a family (I haven't seen them in more than 25 years but my mom ran into them a while ago and I found they are no longer JWs). Because of this and the fact I wasn't raised in a Christian home, I think I am at a disadvantage of understanding the Trinity. I am hoping that some of you can explain it to me. I was told that the way I understood the Trinity was actually Modalism (The water, ice, and steam example I used to use).

Christine,
I am afraid that the truth is; NO ONE understands the trinity. The way religious leaders try to explain it is preposterous, illogical , unreasonable, and totally unbelievable. Can you really believe that the Almighty God is a three headed monster?? Seeing that there are things that Jesus does not know, that God does, Matt 24:36, and some things that belong to God only, Matt 20:23, it would be a better description, instead of a trinity, a tricorporal, meaning three bodies and one head instead of one body and three heads.
There is several terms, such as Correspondence Theory, and Coherence Theory along with the principle of something being Mutually Exclusive, belies the possibility of more than one Allpowerful God. These theories actually mean for something to be considered there must be something, somewhere in history that compares to the theory contemplated. In all of history there is NOTHING like the idea of a trinity, especially since Jesus and God make up just two people. The Holy Spirit is the power or force that God uses to accomplish His purposes. Jesus himself said that the Father is greater than I am, John 14:28. God gave an order to listen to His son, Mark 9:7.
Jesus said that God in heaven is his Father as well as our Father and his God as well as our God, John 20:17. Is a servant equal to his God?? Acts 3:13, 4:27,30.
Three times while Jesus was on earth God spoke to Jesus from heaven, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28. Since it is recorded that Jesus NEVER was deceptive, he was not practicing ventriloquism, but the voice was God's, from heaven. Jesus used the principle of two witnesses and said that he was one, and the Father is also ONE witness, John 8:17,18.
In two places recorded in the Holy Scriptures, God is pictured as sitting on His throne and Jesus was brought in before Him, Dan 7:13,14, Rev 5:6,7. Would this be possible if they were the same person??? I don't think so!!!
Jesus said that God's word is true, John 17:17. The Bible actually says in several places that God is ONE, Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29,32, Gal 3:20.
I could go on and on, but just one more, unless you want more, John 5:22, 23, tells us that God does NO JUDGING at all, but has given ALL the judging to the son. If they were the same person this would be a flat out lie, TRUE!!! It is impossible for God to lie, Titus 1:2, and Jesus never lied, 1Pet 2:22.

 

[Kyle Franklin]

Before I became a Baptist, I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses with a family (I haven't seen them in more than 25 years but my mom ran into them a while ago and I found they are no longer JWs). Because of this and the fact I wasn't raised in a Christian home, I think I am at a disadvantage of understanding the Trinity. I am hoping that some of you can explain it to me. I was told that the way I understood the Trinity was actually Modalism (The water, ice, and steam example I used to use).

We, at the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo), don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Why don't we? Because if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, why is the said doctrine formulated only in the fourth century, when the Lord Jesus is already in the Kingdom of Heaven and the apostles are dead already?

By the way, Jesus Christ is not God and the Holy Spirit is not God too. Why? Because there is only one God, the Father, and if there's only one God and that's the Father, can the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit be Gods too like the Father? No. Let's read from the apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Corinthians 8:6 (New International Version - United Kingdom)

How did the Lord Jesus Christ described the Father? Let's read from the Gospel according to John the Evangelist.

"When Jesus had said these words, he raised his eyes to Heaven and said, 'Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son now so that he may bring glory to you, for you have given him authority over all men to give eternal life for all that you have given to him. And this is eternal life, to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent—Jesus Christ.'" John 17:1-3 (J.B. Phillips New Testament)

Both the Lord Jesus and the apostle Paul testified that there's only one God and that is the Father. If there's only one God and that is the Father, the Lord Jesus can't be God and same with the Holy Spirit.

Another thing: Jesus is described as a man and a son of Man. The book of Numbers said that God is not a man nor the son of Man. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5 (Lexham English Bible)

"The crowd answered, 'Our Law tells us that the Messiah will live forever. How, then, can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?' (get back to verse 32) 'When I (Jesus is the one speaking) am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.'" John 12:34 then 32 (Today's English Version: 1992 Edition)

"God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent. Hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?" Numbers 23:19 (21st Century King James Version)

By proving that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not Gods, the doctrine of Trinity is disproved. Why? Because the definition of Trinity according to the dictionary is “the union of the three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead.”

 

[sojourner]

Your undergraduate work was about the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church separation.

Yes, and also even earlier church history.

It was not about the disintegration of the Roman empire before Constantine reunified the empire.

Yes, it was.

There was no Roman church before Constantine established the doctrines through the Nicene Council, and enforced them through the power of the state, all starting in 325 A.D.

Then, please inform us: To which church at Rome did Paul write in the early years?

 

[sojourner]

I am not sure that your problem has been too much coffee. The "babes" refers to the children of God, not 3 year old toddlers. And revelation is about the Spirit of God revealing what is hidden, and not of one using analytical skills.

My point is that the Trinity is something revealed, and not something that requires a whole lot of analyzation.

 

[sojourner]

We, at the Church of Christ (Iglesia ni Cristo), don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Why don't we? Because if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, why is the said doctrine formulated only in the fourth century, when the Lord Jesus is already in the Kingdom of Heaven and the apostles are dead already?

By the way, Jesus Christ is not God and the Holy Spirit is not God too. Why? Because there is only one God, the Father, and if there's only one God and that's the Father, can the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit be Gods too like the Father? No. Let's read from the apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." 1 Corinthians 8:6 (New International Version - United Kingdom)

How did the Lord Jesus Christ described the Father? Let's read from the Gospel according to John the Evangelist.

"When Jesus had said these words, he raised his eyes to Heaven and said, 'Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son now so that he may bring glory to you, for you have given him authority over all men to give eternal life for all that you have given to him. And this is eternal life, to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent—Jesus Christ.'" John 17:1-3 (J.B. Phillips New Testament)

Both the Lord Jesus and the apostle Paul testified that there's only one God and that is the Father. If there's only one God and that is the Father, the Lord Jesus can't be God and same with the Holy Spirit.

Another thing: Jesus is described as a man and a son of Man. The book of Numbers said that God is not a man nor the son of Man. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5 (Lexham English Bible)

"The crowd answered, 'Our Law tells us that the Messiah will live forever. How, then, can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?' (get back to verse 32) 'When I (Jesus is the one speaking) am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.'" John 12:34 then 32 (Today's English Version: 1992 Edition)

"God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent. Hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?" Numbers 23:19 (21st Century King James Version)

By proving that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not Gods, the doctrine of Trinity is disproved. Why? Because the definition of Trinity according to the dictionary is “the union of the three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead.”

It's obvious that you don't understand the doctrine by what you've written here. The argument is, largely, a straw man.:sleep:

 

[Kyle Franklin]

It's obvious that you don't understand the doctrine by what you've written here. The argument is, largely, a straw man.:sleep:

Why are you saying so? Because the Trinity doctrine was disproved biblically? Hmmm. :beach:

 

[sojourner]

Why are you saying so? Because the Trinity doctrine was disproved biblically? Hmmm. :beach:

No, because you've made some statements about the doctrine that clearly are not true, and then proceeded to knock them down.

 

[Adamski]

Just as h2o is Liquid(water), solid(ice), gas(vapor)

God is father, son and holy ghost

 

[Rocky S]

Before I became a Baptist, I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses with a family (I haven't seen them in more than 25 years but my mom ran into them a while ago and I found they are no longer JWs). Because of this and the fact I wasn't raised in a Christian home, I think I am at a disadvantage of understanding the Trinity. I am hoping that some of you can explain it to me. I was told that the way I understood the Trinity was actually Modalism (The water, ice, and steam example I used to use).

Wow this was a year ago, any way the trinity is hard to understand because of the erroneous explanations that is out there such as the water explanation or the Egg explanation. which both of those explain that God consist of three persons in one. Or that the father Son and Holy Ghost refer to three manifestations. Or that the Father,Son,Holy Gost are essential parts of one being like man is soul body and spirit, which are all unscriptural. The bible interprets the trinity as three distinct individuals in the God head all equal in divinity and deity. each one having his own personal spirit body, personal soul, and personal spirit, and only one in unity and equal as it pertains to divinity. The Father is not the Son or the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Now I know the spirit body thing may throw some people off but here goes: Angels, cherubim,seraphim and all other spirit beings have spirit bodies. God has been seen bodily by humans in the bible many times there is like 20 scripture references i can give but I believe this reply is already to long. And, they are over 20,000 references about God in the bible to study..Also concerning the statements I have made about the trinity has about over 230 Scriptures in the bible to help us in understanding this, if we study them.I will give them if asked Its just a lot to type..

 

[F0uad]

Maybe just some logic..


1 God understood in the trinity =

1st Being who is different (God)
2nd Being who is different (God)
3rd Being who is different (God)

Different means something else then the other.
Therefore making them three different Gods that came from one source.

I think also the water example is blasphemous and blaspheming against the holy-spirit is a unforgivable sin.

 

[Lucian]

There is not even only one doctrine, but multiple doctrines. The followers of these different trinitarian doctrines have persecuted even eachother, which means they place quite an importance to a correct understanding. Choosing one would be an enormous task. I've seen people with all the different doctrines, but I don't consider them correct, since I accept Jesus' simple creed of the one God our Father.

The explanation goes like this: God is three persons, "three whos in one what". God the Father is the first, God the Son the second, God the Holy Spirit the third. The second person also has human nature (unless you're a Monophysite, see below) because he became incarnate, while the other two don't. The persons are all co-equal, co-eternal, possess all the attributes of God, with the exception that God the Father is the unbegotten source from which the rest flows, God the Son is eternally begotten, and God the Holy Spirit eternally "proceeds" from God the Father (if you're Eastern Orthodox, Monophysite or Nestorian) or from God the Father and God the Son (if you're Roman Catholic). If you're a Monophysite, then God the Son has one nature with mixed divinity and humanity. If you're a Nestorian, then the natures are separate (which means no Mother of God, rather Mother of Christ). If you're a Duophysite (Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox again), then you can't mix or separate these natures, but God the Son has the two natures anyway. Now if you are a Monothelite, then God the Son only has one will, while if you're a Duothelite then he has two wills, which are the divine and human wills (held by the Roman and the Eastern). And if you're a Monoenergite, then he only has one energy (or operation, the way which he works in the world), while with a Duoenergite he has two energies (again held by the Roman and the Eastern).

What if you're a trinitarian Protestant? If you're this, then most likely you have something that resembles the Latin trinitarian doctrine, which means you're a Duophysite who has a God the Holy Spirit that proceeds from God the Father and God the Son. You can choose between Monothelitism and Duothelitism (Monoenergism and Duoenergism as well), because most likely you don't need to affirm the councils after Chalcedon. If you're a trinitarian Anabaptist, then it's very likely the second person also had his flesh even before the incarnation, and Virgin Mary was used kind of like as a "tube" in bringing this flesh into the world.

These are some of the doctrines of the trinity. Beyond these no one knows, because it's stated to be a mystery, so God can't be known. It's kind of like a form of Gnostic emanationism, although I guess many would deny that.