False Prophet and the Wounded Beast

[OtherSheep]

The False Prophet and the Wounded Beast

Revelation
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The Greek word translated as he, is translated in other places as: the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. [in the above verses and the one following]

The "image to the beast" could be "the mark of the beast"... who lost a war and didn't exist for a while?


19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Beast and the False Prophet are judged neither as nor with "every man".


Judged Every Man According To Their Works

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So... if the Beast and the False Prophet are not judged as/when all men will be judged, then these beasts are not two individual men, but more like an institution and the government which supports that institution.

Make sense?
To the nay-sayers: if not why not?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So... if the Beast and the False Prophet are not judged as/when all men will be judged, then these beasts are not two individual men, but more like an institution and the government which supports that institution.

It makes more sense to me than the I'll fly away movies where the beast is a dude who forms a global government and tries to do war with God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The False Prophet and the Wounded Beast

Revelation
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The Greek word translated as he, is translated in other places as: the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. [in the above verses and the one following]

The "image to the beast" could be "the mark of the beast"... who lost a war and didn't exist for a while?


19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Beast and the False Prophet are judged neither as nor with "every man".


Judged Every Man According To Their Works

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So... if the Beast and the False Prophet are not judged as/when all men will be judged, then these beasts are not two individual men, but more like an institution and the government which supports that institution.

Make sense?
To the nay-sayers: if not why not?

How does your spiritual health grow by these beliefs?

 

[Nakosis]

The False Prophet and the Wounded Beast

Revelation
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The Greek word translated as he, is translated in other places as: the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. [in the above verses and the one following]

The "image to the beast" could be "the mark of the beast"... who lost a war and didn't exist for a while?


19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Beast and the False Prophet are judged neither as nor with "every man".


Judged Every Man According To Their Works

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So... if the Beast and the False Prophet are not judged as/when all men will be judged, then these beasts are not two individual men, but more like an institution and the government which supports that institution.

Make sense?
To the nay-sayers: if not why not?

Maybe they were angels/demons/spiritual beings. An entity that corrupts man.

An interesting different interpretation is the Beast is the subconscious mind and the false prophet being the "Holy Spirit" men listen to. The Holy Spirit being a creation of the subconscious mind.

Muslims and maybe Jews refer to the internal spiritual struggle each man faces. Instead of looking for the Beast/False Prophet as external people/institutions, look inside ourselves for the root of rebellion against God.

 

[King Phenomenon]

The False Prophet and the Wounded Beast

Revelation
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The Greek word translated as he, is translated in other places as: the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. [in the above verses and the one following]

The "image to the beast" could be "the mark of the beast"... who lost a war and didn't exist for a while?


19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Beast and the False Prophet are judged neither as nor with "every man".


Judged Every Man According To Their Works

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So... if the Beast and the False Prophet are not judged as/when all men will be judged, then these beasts are not two individual men, but more like an institution and the government which supports that institution.

Make sense?
To the nay-sayers: if not why not?

Perhaps beasts are animals and judgedment means end and happens all at once?

 

[OtherSheep]

It makes more sense to me than the I'll fly away movies where the beast is a dude who forms a global government and tries to do war with God.

Right, it can't be a dude, because it doesn't have to wait for the White Throne Judgment. But doesn't the wounded beast pretty much have to be global government? Where else do the 10 horns come from, and how else can the whole world wonder after the beast? The beast was healed before the false prophet stepped onto the stage and said, Hey, look who's back! IMO. The beast is, was and comes back, right? So at least the 7 horns were trying... individually... to make a world government. The one that is, at the time, was Rome. What world government attempts came after Rome? Arabs and Huns?

I just got the I'll fly away meaning... yeah, I hope the letters to the churches, especially Philadelphia, means tough it out... or perseverance means something different now that it did, back in the day.

 

[OtherSheep]

How does your spiritual health grow by these beliefs?

You'd have to read the letters to the churches, from the same Revelation, to understand it. The last church before the hour of temptation is the church of brotherly love. [they shall know that you are Mine by the love you have for each other... which is their first love (the first church had lost it)] At the beginning of each individual letter shines that aspect of Jesus which is fully revealed to that one church.

3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; ...
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and [I will write upon him] My new name.
3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The seventh church, which has to go through the great tribulation, is the multitude standing on the sea of glass before the throne. They had to go to the fire to be purified. Daniel says they fell, and means the same event.

For me, spiritual health means trusting Jesus to keep me like He says He will. This is what makes for patient perseverance. And if your mind is at rest, so is your spirit safe.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You'd have to read the letters to the churches, from the same Revelation, to understand it. The last church before the hour of temptation is the church of brotherly love. [they shall know that you are Mine by the love you have for each other... which is their first love (the first church had lost it)] At the beginning of each individual letter shines that aspect of Jesus which is fully revealed to that one church.

3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; ...
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and [I will write upon him] My new name.
3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The seventh church, which has to go through the great tribulation, is the multitude standing on the sea of glass before the throne. They had to go to the fire to be purified. Daniel says they fell, and means the same event.

For me, spiritual health means trusting Jesus to keep me like He says He will. This is what makes for patient perseverance. And if your mind is at rest, so is your spirit safe.

For example

These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How does god punishing people for not believing in him helping you spiritually?

 

[OtherSheep]

Maybe they were angels/demons/spiritual beings. An entity that corrupts man.

The wounded beast is revealed to John as he stood upon the sands of the sea. The false prophet came up from the earth. In Revelation, the sea is nations and peoples... sands of the sea generally means multitudes. IMO, up from the earth meant from the land around which John prophesied.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Right, it can't be a dude, because it doesn't have to wait for the White Throne Judgment. But doesn't the wounded beast pretty much have to be global government? Where else do the 10 horns come from, and how else can the whole world wonder after the beast? The beast was healed before the false prophet stepped onto the stage and said, Hey, look who's back! IMO. The beast is, was and comes back, right? So at least the 7 horns were trying... individually... to make a world government. The one that is, at the time, was Rome. What world government attempts came after Rome? Arabs and Huns?

I just got the I'll fly away meaning... yeah, I hope the letters to the churches, especially Philadelphia, means tough it out... or perseverance means something different now that it did, back in the day.

Well...I don't agree about that, but I do agree that its probably not a person. When the opening says its an apocalypse that indicates that its in a genre which is neither fiction nor nonfiction. Its something else that we don't write any more in modern times. I think we don't know how to read apocalypses.

I once made a decision about Revelation and its heavy use of the number seven, and since then I considered it a time independent book. I view it now as cyclical or about the continual efforts the saints must make until the walls of Jericho come down. That could be ten thousands years or ten thousand thousand or no number in particular, so I don't view it as history or future viewing thing. We are like Joshua going around Jericho, waiting for the word to blow that trumpet and watch those walls fall and don't know when that will be. I think the seals and bowls and angels are all happening all the time. Several times Revelation repeats the phrase "This calls for patience on the part of the saints." That and the sevens.

I don't read Koine, but I also think that the opening phrase that says "A revelation from Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants what must soon take place" is probably not the best translation or that there is some other way we're supposed to read it. Maybe the idea is that the book is revealing the meaning of the name Jesus Christ rather than a list of specific events to expect to occur.

 

[OtherSheep]

For example

OtherSheep said: ↑
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
OtherSheep said: ↑
the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How does god punishing people for not believing in him helping you spiritually?

God will let the people who don't believe in Him do whatever they want:

11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Jeremiah 44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.
45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.

Cronos swallowed down his children, Zeus made war with Cronos, Chronos lost and was tossed into Tartarus. Isn't Tartarus the pit? Was Cronos a person or a god? Is the wounded beast the Babylonian god? Is Cronus the Babylonian god? Is Saturn, the other name for Cronus, another name for Bel?

 

[OtherSheep]

I think we don't know how to read apocalypses.

Interlinear:
Revelation Chapter 1 - King James Bible With Strong's Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com

Where apokalupsis = "disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation."

Interlinear Greek and English is a must have. Some of the words should have been translated, rather than considered as personal names by the translators. And re: the choices of meanings... wow. I need to find a site that has LXX with Greek NT both in interlinear.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You'd have to read the letters to the churches, from the same Revelation, to understand it. The last church before the hour of temptation is the church of brotherly love. [they shall know that you are Mine by the love you have for each other... which is their first love (the first church had lost it)] At the beginning of each individual letter shines that aspect of Jesus which is fully revealed to that one church.

3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; ...
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and [I will write upon him] My new name.
3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The seventh church, which has to go through the great tribulation, is the multitude standing on the sea of glass before the throne. They had to go to the fire to be purified. Daniel says they fell, and means the same event.

For me, spiritual health means trusting Jesus to keep me like He says He will. This is what makes for patient perseverance. And if your mind is at rest, so is your spirit safe.

I know so far what you believe. My question is,

OtherSheep said: ↑
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
OtherSheep said: ↑
the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

"both where cast alive into a lake of fire burning... .and dead were judged out of the things written in books..." help with your spiritual health?

These specific verses (and others like it).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God will let the people who don't believe in Him do whatever they want:

Scripture doesn't help with understanding what you believe based on why you agree with god that people should be punished unless they believe in god.

I know things like love and grace help people with their faith but what about those things that punish people for their disbelief-and the consequences of them on other people?

How does punishment of other people because they either choose not to believe or are ignorant of your belief help you in your spiritual faith?

 

[OtherSheep]

I know so far what you believe.

How does punishment of other people because they either choose not to believe or are ignorant of your belief help you in your spiritual faith?

You are no longer ignorant of my belief, Unveiled Artist. That must be true of all who have been evangelized. Are there still some corners of the world where the Kingdom of Heaven, as taught by the Discipled Apostles, has not yet reached? This question is important, because it is a sign of what happens next.

24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ...
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ...
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. ...
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom His lord hath made ruler over His household, to give them meat in due season? ...
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done [it] unto Me."--Matthew

All these things being true, the people who "choose not to believe" must be they for whom the Wounded Beast returned.

17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful."--Revelation

People make their own choice, and exercise their free will. God allows them to do so, but warns them of the consequences thereof. ... Force is what the Wounded Beast thinks will work; but people cannot be held responsible for that which they cannot avoid. Our Creator God is just, and offers the only way out.

What would you do to make those who "choose not to believe" accept what they have rejected for thousands of years, Unveiled Artist?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What would you do to make those who "choose not to believe" accept what they have rejected for thousands of years, Unveiled Artist?

Honestly? I'd say rejection isn't a bad thing. I rather one to reject and be free to live how their spirit calls them to live than to succumb to my belief system as if I have the right to choose how they should live with or without god. I honestly wouldn't view it as a negative thing and using sacred scripture (if one likes) to prove them wrong and how they are this or that would be against what I would believe in. Using the bible as a weapon rather than a lesson wouldn't be my state of mind and intent.

...but this still didn't answer my question.

How does another person's consequence from god (and details of it) because people reject your god strengthen your belief?

How does their consequence help you spiritually grow?

 

[OtherSheep]

Honestly? I'd say rejection isn't a bad thing. I rather one to reject and be free to live how their spirit calls them to live than to succumb to my belief system as if I have the right to choose how they should live with or without god. I honestly wouldn't view it as a negative thing

"Free to live how their spirit calls them to live." Doesn't that depend upon what sort of spirit lives in them? Laws must be set in place to keep bad-spirited people from injuring the harmless. Those laws always have a penalty phase, which is announced beforehand to discourage the crime itself, and to tell the bad-spirited what the consequences of their actions must be to protect the harmless.

Do you use the same rule of thumb in all cases? It's hard to imagine that you wouldn't. If "their spiritual growth" is up for grabs, so must be all their neighborhoods, families, and farmyards.

and using sacred scripture (if one likes) to prove them wrong and how they are this or that would be against what I would believe in. Using the bible as a weapon rather than a lesson wouldn't be my state of mind and intent.

How comfortable are you with the Bible, Unveiled Artist?
I'm guessing not very.

Thou shalt not kill, steal, covet, commit adultery, or give false witness...
NOT free to live how their spirit calls them to live.

In fact, the Sermon on the Mount isn't kindly towards those who don't match the character of the Beatitudes.

Jesus never ceases calling a spade a spade, in the Parables and Prophecies.

If faith means cutting the thorns off the stem... if not tossing the rose, thorns and all... then your faith ain't what Jesus taught.

...but this still didn't answer my question.

How does another person's consequence from god (and details of it) because people reject your god strengthen your belief?

How does their consequence help you spiritually grow?

Given all of the above, now
define what you mean by "spiritual growth".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Given all of the above, now
define what you mean by "spiritual growth".

I'll come back. Spiritual growth as you would define it by scripture.

 

[OtherSheep]

I'll come back. Spiritual growth as you would define it by scripture.

John 6:44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me.

When I was the littlest child, I believed in the Creator. Jesus speaks, above, to those who knew His Father's word. And says He will also bring other sheep who will believe what the Discipled Apostles would teach them. Some of us didn't grow up in church. Some of us never heard anything but, Because I said so, from our parents. But one man in the family of tree-worshippers wanted to know who made the tree.

Some people just don't need spiritual growth, UA. Some ones only need God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

John 6:44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me.

When I was the littlest child, I believed in the Creator. Jesus speaks, above, to those who knew His Father's word. And says He will also bring other sheep who will believe what the Discipled Apostles would teach them. Some of us didn't grow up in church. Some of us never heard anything but, Because I said so, from our parents. But one man in the family of tree-worshippers wanted to know who made the tree.

Some people just don't need spiritual growth, UA. Some ones only need God.

How do you make difference between spiritual growth and god?