Facts are in-Aryan Invasion Of Indus is a Lie!

[Riverwolf]

According to principals set out in Vedas.

Fine for us, but what about non-Hindus?

People build on old theories and classifications, without thinking about what it meant.

Sure, they do, if they're intelligent enough to investigate into the matter.

And how do we determine the tried and true tools?

Check for consistency and repeated observation. It's the same scientific/logical method of deduction used in prehistoric science, detective work, etc.

So we can safely infer that a Christian missionary from Uk during 1700ds, would have been more racially/Radically motivated, then today.

A missionary, sure. An anthropologist, maybe or not.

 

[Jainarayan]

the Word Dravidian itself was designed to separate the southern Languages from the Northern.

Yes, because they are unrelated language families.

Hungarian, Finnish and Italian share the same continent, but they are unrelated languages. Italian is Indo-European, while Hungarian and Finnish are Finno-Ugric. There is no provable link between Indo-European and Finno-Ugric. Therefore they have different names.

 

[Jainarayan]

Do you mean that the North and South division was already present prior to the Indologist hypothesis.

The division in languages probably arose somewhere between 200,000 - 150,000 BCE when human language diverged from the proposed (but admittedly impossible to prove because of the time depth) human proto-language. It has nothing to do with Indologists of this century, the last century, or two centuries ago.

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhu ji's ,

quote river woolf
Well, it's kinda hard for me to take pride in my brithland these days.

that feeling I can understand , but as it is by dint of karma , there mut be some lesson to be learnt by it , even if it is to see through the values of present society and therefore realise the value of our chosen path .

on the subject of sanskrit ? as language is constantly evolving , and concidering that the vedic tradition was originaly an oral tradition it would have been handed down in many different local dialects , only more recently to be layed down in standardised sanskrit , the language or the scripts used are un important when compaired to the content !
it is the origin of the vedic knowledge that is important question :bow:

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

About language... Although I am in partial agreement with your view, ratikala, I also feel that language is important insofar as it is a layer of vibration which represents the other layers of vibration. Or, in a word, shabdabrahman.

I saw once a woman sing language into existence. Or rather, I was her and the objects she named gave themselves their names as multidimensional deities clothing themselves in the mundane forms of the material creation. The language bore its own syntax.

It may indeed be that there is an original, divine, or otherwise pure language.

Language may be evolving, or another view is that it may be degenerating. TBTL, what is your view on this as the resident linguist?

Namaste

 

[Jainarayan]

Language may be evolving, or another view is that it may be degenerating. TBTL, what is your view on this as the resident linguist?

Namaste

Language evolves. But not as we think of evolution going from lower to higher, or devolution, i.e. degeneration. It simply changes. Some things become more complex (adding post-positions, prepositions, agglutinations) where there were formerly nominal declensions; using periphrastic phrases instead of verb conjugations. E.g. "I will go" is not an English future tense. English has only past and non-past tenses. All other "tenses" and "moods" are created with modals and periphrastic phrases. Most IE languages still have conjugated tenses. Greek is a exception in that it is going the way of English; I think the Germanic languages too.

Yet on the other hand, those same complexities simplify the language because now you don't have all the nominal case inflections: nominative, dative, accusative, genitive, vocative, etc. (Lithuanian has 14 cases! ) i.e. Krishnah, KrishAya, Krishnam, Krishnasya, Krishna!

Yep, language just changes, neither for good nor ill. If two people can communicate, then the language works just fine.

 

[ratikala]

namaste shuddasattva ,

Namaste

About language... Although I am in partial agreement with your view, ratikala, I also feel that language is important insofar as it is a layer of vibration which represents the other layers of vibration. Or, in a word, shabdabrahman.

jai jai :namaste oh yes I agree very much with your saying "it is a layer of vibration which represents other layers of vibration" .....that truly is shabda , but surely not all language is shabda , the divine sound

I saw once a woman sing language into existence. Or rather, I was her and the objects she named gave themselves their names as multidimensional deities clothing themselves in the mundane forms of the material creation. The language bore its own syntax.

this please you will have to explain a little more .

It may indeed be that there is an original, divine, or otherwise pure language.

it is my personal feeling that the original , the divine , pervades every language but it is not the language in its entirety !

as the origin (the supreme) , the divine , is without begining and without end !that sound vibration shabda is un changing ,

so the thought of a pure language ? prehaps at the begining of satya yuga when beings them selves were pure :namaste

Language may be evolving, or another view is that it may be degenerating.

I like TBL's answer ..."it simply changes"...."if two people can comunicate then it works just fine"..... that in a way is how it changes ... the need to make our selves understood , yet if we are talking about shabda the divine sound , the esoteric essence of the supreme ,this is not language , shabda is sound vibration , that sound vibration is eternal , non changing , indivisable from the supreme , ....as krsna says in the bhagavad gita "of the vedic mantras I am the OM " ....surely language is the tool we use to express our understanding , to convey the understood meaning , and to question . in this way language develops and recedes and develops again with our propencity to question and to learn , to fullfill our needs both spiritual and mundane .

for this reason I had said that it is not the language that is of importance but the meanings hidden within ......those meanings are the wisdom by which we might realise shabda (the supreme).

 

[Jainarayan]

... yet if we are talking about shabda the divine sound , the esoteric essence of the supreme ,this is not language , shabda is sound vibration , that sound vibration is eternal , non changing , indivisable from the supreme

Music, Nada Brahma, the sound of creation.

The philosophy of the Indian Classical Music took its origin from the concept of Nada Brahma..​

..which means that the whole universe was created from the energy of sound - it's only the sound that exists in the beginning.

 

[Vinayaka]

If you start with a particular premise and assume it is true, (even though it may not be) and work from there, then there are no other conclusion. In this scase its the ethnocentric view that man originated somewhere in the middle east, and spread outward. Since anti AIT theory goes against this very basic premise, then it just can't be right.

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhu ji ,

Music,

Ah ha ... now prehaps we are talking , if that sound vibration ahs maintained its purity , better we look for it in the faithfull composition of ragas .

Quote:

The philosophy of the Indian Classical Music took its origin from the concept of Nada Brahma..​

..which means that the whole universe was created from the energy of sound - it's only the sound that exists in the beginning.

in the begining in the middle and at the end of this earth ... and on into the begining of the next :namaste

 

[Jainarayan]

dear prabhu ji ,
Ah ha ... now prehaps we are talking , if that sound vibration ahs maintained its purity , better we look for it in the faithfull composition of ragas .

in the begining in the middle and at the end of this earth ... and on into the begining of the next :namaste

1

Snipped for space.

Music has mathematics, harmonics and a resonance with the universe, that language, human or alien, cannot come close to representing.

There is a quote from Ravi Shankar in the LP album jacket of The Concert For Bangladesh that goes something like "... music is what the rishis and sages called Nada Brahma, a way to reach God..". Unfortunately my LP is packed away and the cd doesn't have the full jacket, so I can't quote exactly. But that was where I first saw the term Nada Brahma and its relationship to sound and music.

Here's more Hindu Wisdom - Hindu Art

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Riverwolf;2965013]Fine for us, but what about non-Hindus?

They can learn

Sure, they do, if they're intelligent enough to investigate into the matter.

Yes, and if they are not influenced Racially or have any biased against any particular beliefe system ect ect

Check for consistency and repeated observation. It's the same scientific/logical method of deduction used in prehistoric science, detective work, etc.

Ahh, according to what guidelines.

A missionary, sure. An anthropologist, maybe or not.

What about a devout Christian who designed a Education system, What about staunch Catholics who judged another religion and their litterateur, what about the undeniable fact of European superiority complex of the past 200-300 years who have ruled and regulated non European nations.

What about.... I cant remember what i was getting at now... but you get the point.

 

[Riverwolf]

They can learn

Not what I meant. The Vedas only mean anything to us. For non-Hindus, the Vedas are no more authoritative than the Zend Avesta, and so they have no reason to follow the guidelines set therein.

Yes, and if they are not influenced Racially or have any biased against any particular beliefe system ect ect

Which they often aren't.

Ahh, according to what guidelines.

Success rate vs. failure rate.

What about a devout Christian who designed a Education system, What about staunch Catholics who judged another religion and their litterateur, what about the undeniable fact of European superiority complex of the past 200-300 years who have ruled and regulated non European nations.

What about.... I cant remember what i was getting at now... but you get the point.

Dude, that superiority is a left-over from the Romans. It's been there for at least 2000 years. However, not everyone feels it. We tend to think of our own cultures as the center of the world, or the best in the world, because they represent what we're used to. The Chinese thought their country was the center of the world, for crying out loud.

The old Christian monks weren't stupid. Just because someone is Christian doesn't mean everything they come up with can only work in a Christian context. In fact, that's the exact same type of thinking that caused many historians to completely discount Hindu texts and legends.

 

[Marcion]

Indo-European Caucasians entered India for thousands of years from the west even before the advent of Lord Shiva, but they did not bring with them the deeper intuitive religion, that was practised by the native populations. They did bring with them the more superstitious poly-theistic and ritualistic religion of their ancestors.

They dominated the native peoples militarily and tried not to mix with them by creating the caste system but after centuries mixing was inevitable and cultures also mixed.
Their demonization of and fights against the black natives is reflected in the ancient mythical story of the Ramayana.

Mongolian peoples entered India for thousands of years from the north and north-east.
Before that time India was a mix of Negroid and Austric peoples.
The racial gradients are still visible in India of today, people in the different corners of India look quite different.

The deeply spiritual and rich culture of India comes mostly from the indigenous peoples not from the Caucasians.

 

[Jainarayan]

They dominated the native peoples militarily and tried not to mix with them by creating the caste system but after centuries mixing was inevitable and cultures also mixed.

There is no archaeological evidence of anything remotely resembling a military presence from outside India. Especially at the IVC. It's pretty much accepted now that the decline and fall of the IVC was due to climate change, not invasion or being conquered. Where are the burned buildings and corpses?

Mongolian peoples entered India for thousands of years from the north and north-east.

The Himalaya were always a barrier to invasion and immigration from the north. Chinggis Khan, of all people, could not conquer India because he could not pass the Himalaya.

Before that time India was a mix of Negroid and Austric peoples.
The racial gradients are still visible in India of today, people in the different corners of India look quite different.

50,000 - 100,000 years ago people settled in the south of India in their migrations to southeast Asia and Australasia from Africa. There's been no influx of non-indigenous genetics in the past 100,000 years to the Indian subcontinent. There is currently little genetic difference in any of the peoples of India, regardless of phenotype (light v. dark complexion). People do move around and interbreed.

 

[Marcion]

Lack of archaeologic proof of burnt buildings is no proof of the absence of conflict.
In fact it is like looking for a needle in a haystack to find such proof.
The Ramayana however clearly reflects the struggle.

Mongolians entered India, even one the wives of Lord Shiva was of Mongolian origin. In Bengal and other provinces of North-east India the influence of the Mongolian genetics is clearly visible today. The same can be said for Nepal.

Also the people of the north-west of India and also the north in general clearly show the influence of Caucasian genes, the people of South-India and even those of Bengal show this in a lesser degree.
As I said, there are gradients even after thousands of years because people of course don't mix randomly throughout the subcontinent.

India is the navel of the world where so many races and cultures mixed into a very rich tapestry.

 

[Riverwolf]

Lack of archaeologic proof of burnt buildings is no proof of the absence of conflict.
In fact it is like looking for a needle in a haystack to find such proof.
The Ramayana however clearly reflects the struggle.

Mongolians entered India, even one the wives of Lord Shiva was of Mongolian origins. In Bengal and other provinces of North-east India the influence of the Mongolian genetics are clearly visible today. The same can be said for Nepal.

Also the people of the north-west of India and also the north in general clearly show the influence of Caucasian genes, the people of South-India and even those of Bengal show this in a lesser degree.
As I said, there are gradients even after thousands of years because people of course don't mix randomly throughout the subcontinent.

...this seems to be based on a very unique view of Indian history that I've never heard before.

You do realize that the Ramayana may not necessarily reflect history, considering all the local variations and later additions/subtractions to the story?

 

[Marcion]

Epic stories like Beowulf also reflect in a mythical way the ksattryan mentality of the people of those days. It is not history, but it does reflect what happened in those days in a significant way.
The Ramayana reflects a history of thousands of years and would not have initially been written down so many variations are to be expected.
But the seed was the struggle of the Aryans in India to dominate the indigenous people.
Racism is not a new invention of caucasian people, it was there also all those thousands of years ago when Caucasians entered India.

 

[Riverwolf]

Epic stories like Beowulf also reflect in a mythical way the ksattryan mentality of the people of those days. It is not history, but it does reflect what happened in those days in a significant way.
The Ramayana reflects a history of thousands of years and would not have initially been written down so many variations are to be expected.
But the seed was the struggle of the Aryans in India to dominate the indigenous people.
Racism is not a new invention of caucasian people, it was there also all those thousands of years ago when Caucasians entered India.

Dude, cultural superiority is part of human nature. It's not limited to Caucaisans.

What physical evidence do you have of this conflict?

 

[Jainarayan]

Lack of archaeologic proof of burnt buildings is no proof of the absence of conflict.

It makes it awfully hard to be taken seriously, though.

In Bengal and other provinces of North-east India the influence of the Mongolian genetics is clearly visible today. The same can be said for Nepal.

Also the people of the north-west of India and also the north in general clearly show the influence of Caucasian genes, the people of South-India and even those of Bengal show this in a lesser degree.

Incorrect. There is no difference in genetics between north and south.