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Evolution and Creationism both have equal value and scientific evidence to support them.

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I see a person that doens't know what Darwinism is, or kind, or type, or micro-evolution, or limits on evolution, should teach a creationist. :rolleyes:

It's rather impossible to teach someone anything factual about evolution who would use any of those phrases. They're already too far gone in ignorance.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Never mind, I give up. Hopefully one day you can learn enough to become a creationist. :sad4:

And that'll take all of two seconds.

I already know enough to become a creationist. I've read the bible in it's entirety. And as far as fiction goes, it's not that great. You should try reading some books by people who don't necessarily agree with your position. And investigate the validity of your claims, because you might find out that the book you hold on to so dearly isn't that reliable, and when you do some research into how the bible was compiled, you might discover that it's even less reliable than you could of ever imagined.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
This is the false notion that creationists are ignorant and need to learn in order to become evolutionists. That is far from the truth. What should happen is the more a person learns the more they should see the problems with Darwinism and see how it doesn't make sense.
Do you honestly think the words "Darwinism" and "evolution" are interchangable or something? Or that it somehow helps your cause to try to relegate all of evolutionary science to the writings of one man? As if to put on equal grounds with the absurdity that is the bible? Did you even read my first post? Because that's what I was refering to that you wouldn't read or face. Here it is again for you to ignore yet again I suppose.

Gotta love when creationists try this crapola.

First off, as far as I know, there are no "evolutionists". There are biologists, geologists, paleontologists and so on who devote their knowledge of science to particular fields of study. Each of the different fields of study have contributed evidence to an overall theory.

Second, real scientists do not start off their studies with an absolute conclusion like creationists do. You people never seem to understand the scientific method at all. You observe, hypothesize, experiment, collect data, and see if the data matches up with what you hypothesized, adjust your theory and re-experiment and do the whole process over and over again until you have data, which over and over, confirms a well worked out theory. This is how the Theory of Evolution has come about. Not the other way around.

Creationists start with their conclusion and then take information which which suits their purposes and twist it around what they want it to mean until they can say "Here! Look at this! We were right all along!" There is no science involved in it at all. So, therefore, to say that Creationism has scientific evidence is an out and out lie.

Creationism is not validated by any evidence obtained through use of scientific method...therefore it is not scientific and has no scientific evidence. Creationists are guilty of taking data which corroborates evolution and twisting it around to mean something entirely different from what it means in order to say "I'm right I'm right I'm right!"

The Theory of Evolution is not a starting point...it is the conclusion brought about by scientists hypothesizing how certain species have come about, testing, observations, experiments and recording data over and over until their adjusted hypotheses match up with the data. The end result is a Scientific Theory. That of the ToE.

Creationism does work with creationism being the starting point and conclusion. You already have it made up in your mind that what you believe is absolutely right that you purposely look for things which you can interpret in such a way that it sort of looks like you could be on to something and that somehow validates your erroneus stance.

Fact is, you do need to learn, for you have made it quite apparent that you have completely no idea of what science really entails and how to go about using it correctly. You use other people's findings, twist them all around, and abuse them to make your own point...no matter how wrong it is.

This all makes you reallly impossible to have an honest intellectual conversation or debate with as you are utterly unwilling to learn enough about scientific methods in order to see that you, and any other creationist, aren't using them correctly, or at all really. Therefore any "evidence" you think there is or want to claim is scientific really doesn't exist as you aren't using science at all...you're bastardizing it for your own greedy gain.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This is the false notion that creationists are ignorant and need to learn in order to become evolutionists. That is far from the truth. What should happen is the more a person learns the more they should see the problems with Darwinism and see how it doesn't make sense.
And yet that is not what happens. Interesting.

Well, are you an example of a creationist? Because you know nothing about the evidence for ToE, and have made it clear that you don't want to learn.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I see a person that doens't know what Darwinism is, or kind, or type, or micro-evolution, or limits on evolution, should teach a creationist. :rolleyes:

"Kind" is a creationist term, MoF, in fact, it's your term. Yet you cannot define it. I don't know what it means because it doesn't mean anything. Same for "type." What on earth do you, MoF, mean by "type." as for limits on evolution, again you're the one asserting they exist, so it's up to you to explain what you think they are and why. Biology hasn't found any yet.

No one knows what "Darwinism" is. You seem to be confused about scientific theories. They're not religious denominations.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I see, you don't know what Darwinism is, but I do, yet I'm ignorant, gotcha. :bow:

I know what it is; a figment of your imagination. The fact that you would use the term betrays a profound ignorance (or possibly dishonesty, or both) about science and how it works.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I would be happy to give you the limits. Mankind has different traits, haircolors, skin colors, heights, facial features, etc... however they are all still mankind. Birds have different features, colors, leg lenghts, beak shapes, different calls, etc... however they are still birds. Dogs have different features too yet they are still dogs. limits limits limits.
That's not what I asked for. Maybe an example will help:

We can measure humans and see that humans have a range of heights. If we're especially diligent, we can even find the world's shortest human and the world's tallest human. However, this doesn't tell us whether it would be possible for some future human being to be even taller than the current tallest person or shorter than the current shortest person.

Can we say that it's impossible for our descendents to be shorter or taller than some height? That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about when I say "limit".

Is there any observed case where anyone found one of these limits? IOW, a hard barrier that makes further change actually impossible? Your previous post implied that such barriers not only exist but have been identified; do you maintain this position? If so, please share.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
That's not what I asked for. Maybe an example will help:

We can measure humans and see that humans have a range of heights. If we're especially diligent, we can even find the world's shortest human and the world's tallest human. However, this doesn't tell us whether it would be possible for some future human being to be even taller than the current tallest person or shorter than the current shortest person.

Can we say that it's impossible for our descendents to be shorter or taller than some height? That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about when I say "limit".

Is there any observed case where anyone found one of these limits? IOW, a hard barrier that makes further change actually impossible? Your previous post implied that such barriers not only exist but have been identified; do you maintain this position? If so, please share.

The features of creatures, such as heighth are irrelevant when it comes to common descent, the question is can creatures turn into another kind of creature? Don't we see all the different kinds of creatures in the world, birds, humans, snakes, giraffes, elephants, fish, etc...? The limit is on the kind of creature it is, snakes have snakes, birds reproduce birds, etc... It's not how tall or short a bird is that makes common descent workable, it's can one kind of creature make or form into another kind of creature. We haven't seen that so that isn't science, that is imagination.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
I know what it is; a figment of your imagination. The fact that you would use the term betrays a profound ignorance (or possibly dishonesty, or both) about science and how it works.

I see, then someone needs to tell your leader that it isn't a valid word because I quote Dawkins. "Darwinism leads to a fascist state". So he knows what it is. :rolleyes:
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Never mind, I give up. Hopefully one day you can learn enough to become a creationist. :sad4:

MoF, I have more bad news for you. I, and most of the pro-science posters here, know much more about creationism than you. The reason I ask you questions, MoF, is to give you a chance to defend and explain your position. One of the things that I know about creationism, and I don't know whether you do, is that creationists don't agree with each other. Some admit speciation, some deny it, some adhere to a sort of super-hyper speciation. So only you can tell us what your position is. Feel free to start at any time.

It's the Magic Poofing Hypothesis, isn't it?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The features of creatures, such as heighth are irrelevant when it comes to common descent, the question is can creatures turn into another kind of creature? Don't we see all the different kinds of creatures in the world, birds, humans, snakes, giraffes, elephants, fish, etc...? The limit is on the kind of creature it is, snakes have snakes, birds reproduce birds, etc... It's not how tall or short a bird is that makes common descent workable, it's can one kind of creature make or form into another kind of creature. We haven't seen that so that isn't science, that is imagination.

So, again, the limit is "kind?" And again, what is a "kind?"
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
The features of creatures, such as heighth are irrelevant when it comes to common descent, the question is can creatures turn into another kind of creature? Don't we see all the different kinds of creatures in the world, birds, humans, snakes, giraffes, elephants, fish, etc...? The limit is on the kind of creature it is, snakes have snakes, birds reproduce birds, etc... It's not how tall or short a bird is that makes common descent workable, it's can one kind of creature make or form into another kind of creature. We haven't seen that so that isn't science, that is imagination.

The problem with using a word like "kind," is that there isn't just one type of bird or one type of snake. There is a wide variety of animals that are classified under the same name but have a different genetic make up.
 
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