Emulation of yidam/ishta-devata?

[Jainarayan]

From http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/vajrayana-dir/9568-vajrayana-buddhism-overview.html :

Vajrayana relies on various tantric techniques rooted in scriptures known as tantras, written in India. The most important aspect of the tantric path is to 'use the result as the Path'; which means that rather than placing full enlightenment as a goal far away in the future, one tries to identify with the enlightened body, speech and mind of a Buddha. The buddha-form which one can best relate to is called the yidam (Tibetan) or (Sanskrit: ishtadevata) or 'personal buddha-form'. In order to achieve this self-identification with a buddha-from, much symbolism and visualization is used in Buddhist tantric techniques.

Is this basically emulation in one's life of the yidam or ishta-devata, and visualizing oneself as that, or is it something else? Christians are to emulate Christ; the WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) or for Vaishnavas WWKD (What Would Krishna Do?). Or is this too simplistic.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Sounds very straight forward to me: invoke often.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I think that, if I understood everything I've read about Vajrayana correctly, the goal is not necessarily to identify with the deity, but to realize that you are not different or separate from the deity; that the deity is not an external form, but something inside yourself, that the qualities of said deity (compassion with Avalokitesvara, or wisdom with Manjusri, etc.) are qualities you possess, but just need to have a way to bring out.

 

[Jainarayan]

I think that, if I understood everything I've read about Vajrayana correctly, the goal is not necessarily to identify with the deity, but to realize that you are not different or separate from the deity; that the deity is not an external form, but something inside yourself, that the qualities of said deity (compassion with Avalokitesvara, or wisdom with Manjusri, etc.) are qualities you possess, but just need to have a way to bring out.

Ah ha! Advaita! "Aham Brahmasmi"... I am Brahman.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Ah ha! Advaita! "Aham Brahmasmi"... I am Brahman.

Yeah, something like that.

 

[ratikala]

dear jai narayan ,

From http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/vajrayana-dir/9568-vajrayana-buddhism-overview.html :


Is this basically emulation in one's life of the yidam or ishta-devata, and visualizing oneself as that, or is it something else? Christians are to emulate Christ; the WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) or for Vaishnavas WWKD (What Would Krishna Do?). Or is this too simplistic.

if I were to describe it rather than to say emulate , which is coming at it from one direction of aquiring the characteristic , it is more a case of awakening and developing a dormant propencity , our buddha nature .
but to do this we need to remove or cut through our ignorant state of mind .
personaly I think it is dangerous to think in terms of I am the yidam when we have not fully explored and understood what the 'I' actualy is , or to be precice is not !
assuming that one is the deity under these conditions unfortunately is delusional .
in every sadhana somwhere are the words please grant your blessings , it is saying may I become like you , .... which means gaining enlightenment to do so !

did you watch batman when you were young ? after each episode there was an anouncement to the efect of , ........remember boys and girls batman is super human ......, inother words super humans can fly , little boys and girls cant !

so we are the little ones , there for it is a case of what would the lord want us to do .

 

[Jainarayan]

:namaste ratikala

dear jai narayan ,


if I were to describe it rather than to say emulate , which is coming at it from one direction of aquiring the characteristic , it is more a case of awakening and developing a dormant propencity , our buddha nature .

I see it's referred to as a "fast track", but I know so little about other schools of Buddhism and the practices other than meditation and following the Noble Eightfold Path, I wonder why this is any more of a fast track to enlightenment.

but to do this we need to remove or cut through our ignorant state of mind .

That's avidya at work, which we must see through, yes?

personaly I think it is dangerous to think in terms of I am the yidam when we have not fully explored and understood what the 'I' actualy is , or to be precice is not !
assuming that one is the deity under these conditions unfortunately is delusional .
in every sadhana somwhere are the words please grant your blessings , it is saying may I become like you , .... which means gaining enlightenment to do so !

Good point. A while back I asked if the concept of aham Brahmasmi was not like self-worship. I think the answer was no because there are checks and balances against it in this world, namely ignorance. We don't realize we are Brahman until we realize it (catch-22).

It's funny you mention asking for the blessings to become like the deity because most of the prayers I found and use in my sadhana do exactly that, especially this:

Lord, You are now with me, yet I am unable to see You.
Grant me Grace; empower me to behold you. You are my Light.
You are my Father. You are my eternal Mother. You are the
Breath of my breath. You are everything. From all sides, at all times,
You are watching me, seeing me, blessing me. You are in the children,
in the creatures great and small. You are everywhere.
Will you not reveal Yourself to me?

Lord, lead me, guide me, purify me, render me peaceful, wise, strong, noble, saintly.
As you are in me, express Yourself through me. Let me be a channel for the flow of
Your Nature and Qualities. Not my personality, but Your Personality which is full of
Perfection, finds its expression through me. I don't want my will to be done, for my will
is imperfect, exposed to wrong impulse, full of limitations. Your Will is wonderful,
perfect, omnipotent. Let Your Will be done through me.


And a prayer to Guanyin:


Divine Mother of all Beings
Great Goddess of Compassion and Mercy
May my heart be home to you
like your island in the sea.
May I feel your presence guiding me in fear and rage.
May the strength and balance of your grace-filled body be mine when I need them,
And may I walk in your Bodhisattva Way with trust and gladness,
Beyond time, beyond the end, beyond the beginning.

 

[ratikala]

good evening :namaste

this is turning out to be an interesting post ,

please bear in mind this is my reply , my personal reflection , and may not be true of all schools .

:namaste ratikala
I see it's referred to as a "fast track", but I know so little about other schools of Buddhism and the practices other than meditation and following the Noble Eightfold Path, I wonder why this is any more of a fast track to enlightenment.

"fast track" ,...yes , .. this is the way I was taught vajrayana , I forget now the term used but it implied that this was the method of acheiving buddha hood in this lifetime .
but then I had also studied the eightfold path and could see that it was equaly possible to acceive enlightenment by sincere practice of the basic tenents .

what at times turned me off was the western approach , the hard sell !" .....only by this special and most superior method , .......become a bohisattva for the benifit of all , .........practice this sadhana and become a superior being , .......and it will only cost you......

but after reflection much as I love vajrayana , much as I love my yidams , I will tell you the universal method which can be used by anyone within any practice and costs nothing ! further more it needs no special mantras , .... it requires two things dedication and total surrender !

That's avidya at work, which we must see through, yes?

:yes:

Good point. A while back I asked if the concept of aham Brahmasmi was not like self-worship. I think the answer was no because there are checks and balances against it in this world, namely ignorance. We don't realize we are Brahman until we realize it (catch-22).

yes, some times I look at the problem buddhism faces in realising buddha nature , because as conditioned beings we are looking to find something we recognise , judging it against what we understand, namely ourselves and our being . but I see practice as striping away the layers upon layers of conceptions about what is and what we are , and when all is striped away or deconstructed you find something that the conditioned mind could never have beheld , .......
....and for this reason it was allways so that one did not teach on emptyness untill the practitioner had acheived a certain level , why ...because you canot understand it through terminology , you canot understand it with the conditioned mind , .....only words conveying theory .in much the same way that I have no experience of your home town just from veiwing it on a post card , I think I know what it is like but in truth I am simply excercising my imagination !

It's funny you mention asking for the blessings to become like the deity because most of the prayers I found and use in my sadhana do exactly that, especially this:

and as we can know nothing by use of our imagination , and we can know nothing by the assimilation of second hand information , ..... we pray , ..... please grant us your blessings :namaste

infact we humbly pray , and the more humbly we pray the sooner we make progress due the mercy of our worshipable divinity , so we are back to surrender , the fast track of all fast tracks :yes:

Lord, You are now with me, yet I am unable to see You.
Grant me Grace; empower me to behold you. You are my Light.
You are my Father. You are my eternal Mother. You are the
Breath of my breath. You are everything. From all sides, at all times,
You are watching me, seeing me, blessing me. You are in the children,
in the creatures great and small. You are everywhere.
Will you not reveal Yourself to me?

Lord, lead me, guide me, purify me, render me peaceful, wise, strong, noble, saintly.
As you are in me, express Yourself through me. Let me be a channel for the flow of
Your Nature and Qualities. Not my personality, but Your Personality which is full of
Perfection, finds its expression through me. I don't want my will to be done, for my will is imperfect, exposed to wrong impulse, full of limitations. Your Will is wonderful,
perfect, omnipotent. Let Your Will be done through me.

and if one recites this from the heart then he surrenders most perfectly , and blessings will be bestowed upon him he will become ever more pure , ever more blissfull and eventualy full of knowledge ,..... ki jai !

so in truth does it matter ? yidam or ishtadevata ?

not from where I am sitting :namaste

 

[Jainarayan]

good evening :namaste

this is turning out to be an interesting post ,

It is indeed. I may be a pest in bringing up some of the topics, but I think that I'm seeing deeper meanings in Hinduism too by delving into vajrayana. Especially because of the comments in another post I made a while ago asking what tantra really is. Exploring all this made me realize that tantra includes worship of Radha-Krishna, Lakshminarayana, Ardhanarishwara... male/female aspects, yin/yang.

"fast track" ,...yes , .. this is the way I was taught vajrayana , I forget now the term used but it implied that this was the method of acheiving buddha hood in this lifetime .
but then I had also studied the eightfold path and could see that it was equaly possible to acceive enlightenment by sincere practice of the basic tenents .

Compare to bhakti and jnana... both are roads to the same destination.

what at times turned me off was the western approach , the hard sell !" .....only by this special and most superior method , .......become a bohisattva for the benifit of all , .........practice this sadhana and become a superior being , .......and it will only cost you......

I don't mean to get full of myself, but I think western Buddhism is kind of a fashion statement. I don't think people really understand what Buddhism is. I'm not even there yet, though I've been reading prety heavily today and am sorting out the schools and doctrines. For one now I know why the Dalai Lama doesn't even head all of Tibetan Buddhism, just the gelug-pa sect. I think there are three others he has nothing to do with.

but after reflection much as I love vajrayana , much as I love my yidams , I will tell you the universal method which can be used by anyone within any practice and costs nothing ! further more it needs no special mantras , .... it requires two things dedication and total surrender !

Ki jai!

and as we can know nothing by use of our imagination , and we can know nothing by the assimilation of second hand information , ..... we pray , ..... please grant us your blessings :namaste

infact we humbly pray , and the more humbly we pray the sooner we make progress due the mercy of our worshipable divinity , so we are back to surrender , the fast track of all fast tracks :yes:


and if one recites this from the heart then he surrenders most perfectly , and blessings will be bestowed upon him he will become ever more pure , ever more blissfull and eventualy full of knowledge ,..... ki jai !

I just ask that I be shown the right way to do things and to give full surrender. When I sit and meditate I try to open my mind to let God come in and do with me what He will. I have a framed copy of Bhagavad Gita 3.9 in my cubicle:

In this world all actions, unless they are done as an offering to God,
become causes of bondage. Therefore, work for the sake of God
without personal attachments.

I try to remember this and offer everything I do to God, or act in His name. That's one way of looking at tantra I guess. And of course it occurred to me only recently, by remembering "If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all" when I curse out someone on the road, or make a judgment, I'm doing it to God, and myself. Now that's a different perspective.

so in truth does it matter ? yidam or ishtadevata ?

not from where I am sitting :namaste

:clap

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I don't mean to get full of myself, but I think western Buddhism is kind of a fashion statement.

You're not full of yourself; this is the sad fact. It's something that I'm always testing myself on, to see if what I'm doing is based in the Buddha's actual teachings, or is based on the way westerners like to view it.

 

[Me Myself]

did you watch batman when you were young ? after each episode there was an anouncement to the efect of , ........remember boys and girls batman is super human ......, inother words super humans can fly , little boys and girls cant !

BLASPHEMY! You show utter disregard of Batman´s nature, STOP IT!

Ehem, sorry I know this is a DIR, but seriously people, Batman is not superhuman! Get your geek facts right! [/geekrant]

 

[Jainarayan]

You're not full of yourself; this is the sad fact. It's something that I'm always testing myself on, to see if what I'm doing is based in the Buddha's actual teachings, or is based on the way westerners like to view it.

I'm curious to know how westerners actually do practice, or think of Buddhism. That is, what do they think it is. Sometimes I imagine vegetarian middle-aged hippies having a statue of the Buddha and sitting cross-legged, eyes closed chanting "ommmmm" and telling the world they're Buddhist. Not that I know much better. OK, now I'm getting tired and I'm becoming unkind and adharmic. Time to light the lamp and say prayers (mostly asking for forgiveness for being a schmuck ).

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I'm curious to know how westerners actually do practice, or think of Buddhism. That is, what do they think it is. Sometimes I imagine vegetarian middle-aged hippies having a statue of the Buddha and sitting cross-legged, eyes closed chanting "ommmmm" and telling the world they're Buddhist. Not that I know much better. OK, now I'm getting tired and I'm becoming unkind and adharmic. Time to light the lamp and say prayers (mostly asking for forgiveness for being a schmuck ).

I've been accused of being this kind of Buddhist before. But I think that's what some westerns think it is. For some, it's some exotic eastern religion, and they have this romantic idea of what it is, which it doesn't turn out to be. For some, it's a mystical path, but devoid of some other aspects of buddhadharma. But, I believe that there are many westerners who look to Buddhism, seeking something that's not there, so they imagine that it is, and make it into that very thing.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

It's amusing to see just how people really feel about Buddhism when they become accustomed to its tenets...

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It's amusing to see just how people really feel about Buddhism when they become accustomed to its tenets...

Yeah, I think alot of westerners, upon finding out about ideas such as anatta, anicca, shunyata, etc., become quite put off by it.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Yeah, I think alot of westerners, upon finding out about ideas such as anatta, anicca, shunyata, etc., become quite put off by it.

Or you tell them reincarnation is not the goal of Buddhism, and then suddenly it's all icky.

...but we're getting off topic.

 

[Jainarayan]

I've been accused of being this kind of Buddhist before. But I think that's what some westerns think it is. For some, it's some exotic eastern religion, and they have this romantic idea of what it is, which it doesn't turn out to be. For some, it's a mystical path, but devoid of some other aspects of buddhadharma. But, I believe that there are many westerners who look to Buddhism, seeking something that's not there, so they imagine that it is, and make it into that very thing.

I've been accused of being that kind of Hindu!

I'm glad it's not something that I'm imagining. Anyone can practice anything they want, so please don't think I'm judging, but that problem indeed arises that you alluded to... what happens when the disillusionment and confusion sets in? Do they have enough motivation and drive to explore? I think the reason that 90% of us are here is for that exploration and learning. I'm learning that, while I love Hinduism, there's something that's not complete or explained, questions unanswered. And then there are things that are, imo, superstition that have no ground in what God is.

I posted sometime in the past year that someone from SGI-USA gave my partner a business card with Nam Myoho Renge Kyo on it. The "perp" (I watch too much Law & Order and NCIS ) told him Tina Turner practices Sōka Gakkai. My partner is a lapsed RC; he drove me NUTS trying to find out what Sōka Gakkai is; I found the Lotus Sutra; he bought statues of the Buddha and Guanyin; a gong. All because Tina Turner practices SG. I was supportive, but guess who's the one who has abandoned it, and who is the one who is learning about Buddhism and finding out for whom it works? Prime example in my own life of a passing fad.

 

[Jainarayan]

It's amusing to see just how people really feel about Buddhism when they become accustomed to its tenets...

Yeah, I think alot of westerners, upon finding out about ideas such as anatta, anicca, shunyata, etc., become quite put off by it.

Because it makes you think and practice, not just label yourself. And if you asked me last week what are the schools of Buddhism and the beliefs, I'd have looked at you like a deer in the headlights. And I have a headstart on lapsed Catholics (I think I'll pick on Catholics today, having been one ).

 

[ratikala]

dear me myself ,

BLASPHEMY! You show utter disregard of Batman´s nature, STOP IT!

Ehem, sorry I know this is a DIR, but seriously people, Batman is not superhuman! Get your geek facts right! [/geekrant]

begging your pardon , but it has been a long time since I watched batman ,

I promice never ever again to make batman analogies :sorry1:

but just out of curiosity what then is batman ? if he is not .....human ?

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhu ji's

You're not full of yourself; this is the sad fact. It's something that I'm always testing myself on, to see if what I'm doing is based in the Buddha's actual teachings, or is based on the way westerners like to view it.

maybe I'm not so crazy either then !!!

I try not to take against any one or type cast persons as typical.....of sort ! , but when it comes to western buddhists , ........ for the sake of my sanity ......I am best of in the company of indians , hindu , buddhist , sikh , ....it dosent matter there is something in common , something understood ! but the majority of western buddhists ? sorry I draw a blank and allways end up feeling sad and confused and feeling it must be me I've got it all wrong !!!

wonderfull now at last I hear some sence ...."I'm always testing myself on, to see if what I'm doing is based in the Buddha's actual teachings, " yes that is what I thought one was supposed to do !

unfortunately it has a lot to do with the western habbit of interlectualising every thing , instead of looking at the sheer beauty and simplicity in the eight fold path , there is a mistaken peice of conditioning which western mind find difficult to shed which loves to complicate things .
understanding complicated things equates with clever in the western eye , where as it is the reverse in the east where simplicity is beautifull !
in the east clever is false identification with the self , ... ahamkara !
buddha was teaching awareness , awakeness non atatchment to the self !

some of my favorite books are early indian translations from tibetan to english , you get a very faithfull translation with no attempt to try to tidy it up or render it in perfect english , it simply is as it is ,
I avoid the majority of western writing on the subject because even when I have tried to give it a fair reading , it misses something of the true nectar that the teachings should contain ,
I dint want to gripe , but it is just not for me !