Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[sojourner]

No. The question is "Why are you so hell-bent of accepting extraordinary claims without any supporting evidence?"

In any other field, such claims would be cerated with due scepticism, but when it's about religion we are supposed to just give it all a free pass.

If I told you that my case of Covid was cured by pixies, would you believe me?

But since faith/claims are properly about our interior life and how we perceive the world and our place in it, what engine shall we use to determine the veracity of the observations?

 

[blü 2]

Except that you’re ignoring the nuances of
the context. Nowhere in the vicinity of the passage does it mention anything remotely akin to physical illness. It does, however, talk about more
Spiritual and emotional issues.

I defer to the many modern translations I referred you to which support the word 'sick' as it stands, and I repeat that 'I am sick' is a perfectly acceptable and usual translation of ἀσθενέω.

Nor do I see any nuances that I didn't mention in my earlier post. And I don't find in the context anything that demands your interpretation.

Nor do you appear to have that example of ἀσθενέω clearly in context meaning 'I am depressed / melancholic'.

 

[PruePhillip]

You made assertions about the nature of a realm you said was incomprehensible, and have repeatedly ignored this contradiction.

The Incomprehensible realm (IR)
From it came our natural world.
There's certain logical statements you can make: I would assume this IR would not have properties identical to our natural world, otherwise why would our universe need to be created?
That things in our world have a beginning and end does not mean things in the IR need be the same, hence the 'argument' about if God created this world, who created God.
Methinks we all fail in thinking about this IR.

 

[PruePhillip]

Endorsing slavery, and ethnic cleansing, including infanticide, torturing a newborn baby to death over 7 days because it was conceived in an adulterous relationship, indiscriminate and relentless murder, including a global flood and genocide, advocating sex trafficking female prisoners, etc etc etc, maybe love means something different to you than me?

You are familiar with Woke ideology, animal rights and other secular 'values' ?
I could imagine an age coming when it will be illegal to ride a horse as it's 'cruel' and 'violates animal rights.'
And people will look at the biblical story of Jesus and the colt and say, 'I don't follow a book that condones the riding of animals.'
(let alone animal sacrifice, beasts of burden, eating meat etc..)
This stuff about 'endorsing' slavery is called PRESENTISM, comparing the past to the present. I imagine that people back then, seeing a world where half the kids come from broken homes, the proliferation of drugs, mass shootings, transgender politics, atomic warfare and the things listed in my profile - would condemn our age as we condemn theirs.
I do not live under the old Jewish law of the Old Testament. The doctrine of Christianity is laid out in Matthew 5,6 and 7. And the Christain attitude to slavery is given in Paul's letter to Philemon.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Classic gaslighting. You’re being provocative. My temper is my business; the other poster crossed a line and you and I are done.

Really? What supposed line did I cross? You appeared to get mad due to repeated refutation of your claims about Reiki.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yeah, I had a girlfriend like that once too. Dumping her was one of the smartest things that I ever did. The God of the Bible appears to be just like her, promising to pay for something that she did wrong while blaming you. Yeah, I know, the sex is great. But it is not worth the price that you pay. The only way to stay with such a psycho ***** is to go crazy yourself and trust me, you don't want to do that.

??????

 

[Subduction Zone]

??????

What didn't you understand? The God of the Bible is quite a bit like that girlfriend that I realized was toxic.

 

[PruePhillip]

What didn't you understand? The God of the Bible is quite a bit like that girlfriend that I realized was toxic.

Oh, ok. I am glad you live in a world that is decreasing in toxicity as the bible fades into irrelevance.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, ok. I am glad you live in a world that is decreasing in toxicity as the bible fades into irrelevance.

Do you know what? It is. The world has gotten better and better as the Bible has grown weaker and weaker.

 

[PruePhillip]

Do you know what? It is. The world has gotten better and better as the Bible has grown weaker and weaker.

How do you MEASURE that?
The world gets 'better' due to science and technology, ie cheap food, vaccines, electricity, Internet etc..
But at the same time this tech is erroding social fabrics and traditional values. And it's been going on for several centuries now. We have replaced one thing with another. A cute cartoon I remember was an old man telling his grandson that one we will all be replaced by a machine - next panel grandpa is gone and in his spot is a TV. Bowling Alone is a good book on his phenomonen.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How do you MEASURE that?
The world gets 'better' due to science and technology, ie cheap food, vaccines, electricity, Internet etc..
But at the same time this tech is erroding social fabrics and traditional values. And it's been going on for several centuries now. We have replaced one thing with another. A cute cartoon I remember was an old man telling his grandson that one we will all be replaced by a machine - next panel grandpa is gone and in his spot is a TV. Bowling Alone is a good book on his phenomonen.

Traditional values exist usually due to failures of society. Yes, things are changing. But when it comes to the statistics that count it looks as if life is improving over all.

 

[KWED]

They’re the same thing.

If there is no god and all change comes from within, how is that the same as change coming from god?

 

[KWED]

What about people giving testimony concerning interior things, rather than exterior things? If I perceive that I “feel sick,” it’s probably the case that I do, in fact, feel sick. I don’t need someone else to do a double blind study in order to determine that I feel sick. Or better. Or happy.

So if someone claims "I have cancer of the pancreas" or "I have Covid", doctors shouldn't do any tests. They should just accept the patients' claims about the source of their feeling of unwellness?

 

[KWED]

Or not. People pray out of a sense of unity with creation. They want to align with what is larger than just them.

You should meet up with @TransmutingSoul for a platitude-off.

 

[KWED]

But since faith/claims are properly about our interior life and how we perceive the world and our place in it, what engine shall we use to determine the veracity of the observations?

If people claim that prayer makes them feel nice, we should just shrug and say "whatever", but when people claim that prayer can bring about physical changes, we should conduct trials to test that claim.

 

[KWED]

You are familiar with Woke ideology, animal rights and other secular 'values' ?
I could imagine an age coming when it will be illegal to ride a horse as it's 'cruel' and 'violates animal rights.'

Not an unreasonable idea. Why should humans be allowed to force animals to carry us about on their backs for fun?
There is a reason that training a horse to take a rider is called "breaking".

Have you not notice how over the space of only a few decades, civilised society's approach to the treatment of animals has fundamentally changed. It probably won't be too long until eating meat is looked at in a similar way to wearing fur.

This stuff about 'endorsing' slavery is called PRESENTISM, comparing the past to the present.

That argument only works if you don't regard the Bible, Quran, etc are valid and appropriate handbooks for life today. If you claim that there is an objective, universal, divinely revealed morality, then you cannot say "but things were different then".

 

[KWED]

How do you MEASURE that?
The world gets 'better' due to science and technology, ie cheap food, vaccines, electricity, Internet etc..
But at the same time this tech is erroding social fabrics and traditional values. And it's been going on for several centuries now. We have replaced one thing with another. A cute cartoon I remember was an old man telling his grandson that one we will all be replaced by a machine - next panel grandpa is gone and in his spot is a TV. Bowling Alone is a good book on his phenomonen.

Well, we could compare life in secular, liberal democracies to life in theocracies and highly religious societies, and measure things like health, welfare, security, life expectancy, happiness, etc.
Oh wait. We already do that, and the secular liberal democracies usually come out higher.

 

[Sheldon]

Classic gaslighting. You’re being provocative. My temper is my business; the other poster crossed a line and you and I are done.

No, and your temper might be your business, but when and where others post is not.

you and I are done.

I'm sure I'll get over it, just give me time to grieve.

 

[Sheldon]

What is it do you think prayers are *supposed* to do? You appear to be arguing against the “Christmas wish list” paradigm. But that’s not authentic prayer, so no one would be surprised to have it not work.

Oh I imagine quite a few theists would be surprised, since their beliefs clearly don't mesh with your claims here, and you have offered no objective evidence that your prayers work, you have offered correlation, not causation. I assume you know what a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy is?

 

[Sheldon]

I think the preponderance of points are not cogent.

Do we have to guess why, or is it a secret? Only as KWED asserts, the title of the thread is about the efficacy of intercessory prayer, and the research described was testing well known theistic claims about its efficacy. You believe something a little different, groovy but irrelevant to this thread.