Does the God of the Bible...

[ayani]

I completely agree. But a Christian who believes that God will favour them over Muslim ONLY because their faith happened to be true, does not agree.

well, a Christian can have faith in the supremacy and sufficiency of Christ and still respect others' beliefs.

one can be a Christian, share the Gospel when given the chance, and be respectful and kind in the process, whether or not the other person agrees.

in Christian faith, a Christian has nothing to boast about. i'm not a Christian because i'm inherently better than anyone else, nor am i inherently better than anyone else because i'm a Christian. what makes the difference is not myself, but Christ.

we believe Him to be risen from the dead, and therefor living, and more than able to guide men and women to understand who He is, and believe on Him. in other words, we are saved by grace, and by faith in Him, not because of our innate goodness. and as no one can come to have faith in Him unless God opens up doors for them to hear and understand the Gospel (John 6:65), Christians really have nothing to boast about on their own.

still, a Christian is going to affirm the uniqueness and supremacy of Jesus of Nazareth, and at least defend that faith to others, if not explain to them how and why we believe what we do, and what makes this faith universally meaningful. still, there are ways of doing this which are respectful. in fact, if a Christian truly wants to reflect and imitate Christ, he or she should ideally be humble, kind, and patient, and not hassle someone who is asking them to please shush and go away.

 

[HoldemDB9]

well, a Christian can have faith in the supremacy and sufficiency of Christ and still respect others' beliefs.

one can be a Christian, share the Gospel when given the chance, and be respectful and kind in the process, whether or not the other person agrees.

in Christian faith, a Christian has nothing to boast about. i'm not a Christian because i'm inherently better than anyone else, nor am i inherently better than anyone else because i'm a Christian. what makes the difference is not myself, but Christ.

we believe Him to be risen from the dead, and therefor living, and more than able to guide men and women to understand who He is, and believe on Him. in other words, we are saved by grace, and by faith in Him, not because of our innate goodness. and as no one can come to have faith in Him unless God opens up doors for them to hear and understand the Gospel (John 6:65), Christians really have nothing to boast about on their own.

still, a Christian is going to affirm the uniqueness and supremacy of Jesus of Nazareth, and at least defend that faith to others, if not explain to them how and why we believe what we do, and what makes this faith universally meaningful. still, there are ways of doing this which are respectful. in fact, if a Christian truly wants to reflect and imitate Christ, he or she should ideally be humble, kind, and patient, and not hassle someone who is asking them to please shush and go away.

I understand that Christians have nothing to boast about. But there still has to be something that they are doing that non-Christians are not doing, that will cause God to favour them. All I am asking, is what that thing is. Without an answer, how can you believe that God will favour Christians over Muslims? - without an answer, you have no reason to believe this. Have you read Heneni's comments? She is straight out saying that God will reward and punish based on whether or not our guesses were true.

 

[ayani]

what it comes down to is who we believe Jesus to be- God's beloved Son. the Father loves the Son He has sent, and also loves those who recognize His Son for who He is, and respond by faith to Him.

it's exactly because we point to a relationship between God and Jesus, that there's understood to be a special connection between God and the Christian.

we should not come to faith by guessing... admittedly it can be confusing to figure our what, if anything, is really true in a world so full of religious diversity and competing claims on truth. coming to have faith in Jesus and understand the import and meaning of His words and Person is not the same as making a wild guess and choosing "Christian".

God knows our hearts and intentions. He will judge us ultimately by what we have done with the gift of life, not by how we label ourselves. true Christians are new in Christ, and do their best to reflect Him to the world, and to love God and love man for His sake. many profess to be Christians, and they have a pretty solid theological basis. but they're jerks. sorry, but... many folks have the right idea, but they don't live it. just because they believe what is right, doesn't mean their hearts are right with God.

not everyone who says to Him "Lord, Lord" will enter His kingdom, but those who do the will of His Father. frankly, a Hindu who lives an outwardly Christ-like life is in better shape than a Baptist who lacks mercy and love. Christ *does* make the difference spiritually. it is still He whom God wants us to know, and respond to.

God will reward or punish us based on how we use this life He's given us. it would be a great blessing, though, to get to know His Son, and have new life in Him. but a faith must be lived if it's to bear fruit. when Christ describes how He will judge the world, He makes that famous pronouncement "I was hungry, and you fed me not...".

I understand that Christians have nothing to boast about. But there still has to be something that they are doing that non-Christians are not doing, that will cause God to favour them. All I am asking, is what that thing is. Without an answer, how can you believe that God will favour Christians over Muslims? - without an answer, you have no reason to believe this. Have you read Heneni's comments? She is straight out saying that God will reward and punish based on whether or not our guesses were true.

 

[S-word]

[/font]

Then how do you explain people who say they've gone to Heaven in an NDE even though the meter measuring their brain activity (EEG) was flat, measuring zero brain activity? And most of the people who have these NDE's are convinced of their truth. Many live their entire lives on Earth obeying what they heard and saw in their NDE.



Four gospel writers? There is more evidence than that. What about Paul of Tarsus? He gives his own testimony to his conversion in 1Cor 15:1-10 and Gal 1:11-14. He also talks about his conversion in 1Cor 9:1, and Gal 2:2. These letters were written by him, first-hand. And he claimed to have seen Jesus, and he told of his previous wanderings in Judaism and how he had turned. Also, would he lie about the hundreds of men, who he said had seen the resurrected Jesus, in 1Cor 15:1-10? Have you read any of these records of Jesus? They don't contradict each other. They all tell of the resurrection, they all tell of Jesus' life, Luke, Matthew, Mark in agreement with each other, and John telling from a different point of view. Not contradicting though. Also, the Gospel of Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples, regarded as heresy in early Christian times, was found just this past century and included many parables identical and almost identical to the Gospels parables.

Are you saying that all those people who have had near death, I repeat, NEAR death experiences, are now all devout christians?
Lazarus, whose body has long since retured to the universal elements from which it was formed, also had one of those NDE's.

Spoken by Peter, Acts 10: 40, “But God raised him from death three days later and caused him to appear, not to everyone, but only to the witnesses that God had already chosen, that is, to us (The Twelve) who ate and drank with him after he rose from death.”

Only the twelve saw the risen body of the man Jesus with the holes in his hands and feet and the gash in his side. Paul saw a body of light more brilliant than the sun which blinded him, and heard a voice say, ”I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute," but he did not see the risen body of the man Jesus, and neither did anyone else apart from the twelve chosen ones.

If God had to allow the risen body of Jesus to appear and to eat and drink with the 12 disciples before they would believe in the resurrection, why does he not allow us to see him too, in order that we might also believe?

 

[HoldemDB9]

what it comes down to is who we believe Jesus to be- God's beloved Son. the Father loves the Son He has sent, and also loves those who recognize His Son for who He is, and respond by faith to Him.

it's exactly because we point to a relationship between God and Jesus, that there's understood to be a special connection between God and the Christian.

we should not come to faith by guessing... admittedly it can be confusing to figure our what, if anything, is really true in a world so full of religious diversity and competing claims on truth. coming to have faith in Jesus and understand the import and meaning of His words and Person is not the same as making a wild guess and choosing "Christian".

God knows our hearts and intentions. He will judge us ultimately by what we have done with the gift of life, not by how we label ourselves. true Christians are new in Christ, and do their best to reflect Him to the world, and to love God and love man for His sake. many profess to be Christians, and they have a pretty solid theological basis. but they're jerks. sorry, but... many folks have the right idea, but they don't live it. just because they believe what is right, doesn't mean their hearts are right with God.

not everyone who says to Him "Lord, Lord" will enter His kingdom, but those who do the will of His Father. frankly, a Hindu who lives an outwardly Christ-like life is in better shape than a Baptist who lacks mercy and love. Christ *does* make the difference spiritually. it is still He whom God wants us to know, and respond to.

God will reward or punish us based on how we use this life He's given us. it would be a great blessing, though, to get to know His Son, and have new life in Him. but a faith must be lived if it's to bear fruit. when Christ describes how He will judge the world, He makes that famous pronouncement "I was hungry, and you fed me not...".

I've said it before, I have no problem with your beliefs. The Christians I have a problem with are the ones that you also seem to have a problem with. The ones who would say that (from your example) the baptist would be favoured over the Hindu. How can a Christian be favoured over an equally faithful (or more faithful) Muslim?

 

[M O N S T E R]

Message to ayani: Declaring that God did this, and that God said that does not constitute reasonable evidence in debates. It is a waste of your time and other people's time for you to make uncorroborated guesses and speculations. How do you propose that people try to reasonably verify the claims that 1) the God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth, 2) a global flood occured, 3) Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, 4) Jesus was born of a virgin, 5) Jesus never sinnned, and 6) Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind?

Those are very important claims. Do you accept them entirely based upon faith, or is it your position that common sense, logic, and reason are useful for trying to reasonably verify the claims? Perhaps you became Christians because of emotional reasons disguised as faith.

 

[S-word]

what it comes down to is who we believe Jesus to be- God's beloved Son. the Father loves the Son He has sent, and also loves those who recognize His Son for who He is, and respond by faith to Him.

it's exactly because we point to a relationship between God and Jesus, that there's understood to be a special connection between God and the Christian.

we should not come to faith by guessing... admittedly it can be confusing to figure our what, if anything, is really true in a world so full of religious diversity and competing claims on truth. coming to have faith in Jesus and understand the import and meaning of His words and Person is not the same as making a wild guess and choosing "Christian".

God knows our hearts and intentions. He will judge us ultimately by what we have done with the gift of life, not by how we label ourselves. true Christians are new in Christ, and do their best to reflect Him to the world, and to love God and love man for His sake. many profess to be Christians, and they have a pretty solid theological basis. but they're jerks. sorry, but... many folks have the right idea, but they don't live it. just because they believe what is right, doesn't mean their hearts are right with God.

not everyone who says to Him "Lord, Lord" will enter His kingdom, but those who do the will of His Father. frankly, a Hindu who lives an outwardly Christ-like life is in better shape than a Baptist who lacks mercy and love. Christ *does* make the difference spiritually. it is still He whom God wants us to know, and respond to.

God will reward or punish us based on how we use this life He's given us. it would be a great blessing, though, to get to know His Son, and have new life in Him. but a faith must be lived if it's to bear fruit. when Christ describes how He will judge the world, He makes that famous pronouncement "I was hungry, and you fed me not...".

Jerks? You said it my friend, how many denominational jerk leaders, are living in their luxurious homes with their magnificent cars and private jets etc, with office workers churning out their letters of solicitation, crying out for more money to feed the hungry etc? Jerks who claim that they are preaching God's message, and driving out demons and performing many miracles in the name of Jesus.

How many ordinary people who call themselves Christians, whose works of charity are done for no other purpose than to be seen by others in order that they might be held in higher regard within their communities, etc? The good deeds of these people are seen as filthy menstrual rags in the eyes of the Lord, “Who I Am.”

In Paul’s letter to the Romans 10: 13, where he says, As the scripture says, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved;” the scripture Paul refers to is Joel 2: 32, and the Lord here referred to, is Jehovah, who gave his name to Moses as, ‘I Am Who I Am,’ and it was he who promised Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18, that in future years he would raise up a man from among the Israelites and send him in his own name, to do and say only that which he, the obedient servant, would be commanded.

That man who is verified by Peter in Acts 3: 22, was the man Jesus, where, according to Acts 3: 13, it is said, that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our ancestors who gave his name to Moses as “Who I Am,” has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

This “ Lord,” to who Paul refers in Romans 10: 13, who will save all who call upon his holy name, is the same Lord who rose Jesus, who was totally obedient to our indwelling Father, from death and is able to raise we also, who call upon his holy name.
This is that same Lord God Almighty of whom it is said in Acts 17: 31, “For He (The Lord God) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.”

The day of the Lord is upon us, the thousand year rule of the risen body of Christ who are totally obedient to our indwelling Father, which immortal and spiritual body was poured out as fire on the required number of Jews and Gentiles of the first resurrection, who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and rule the Sabbath of one thousand years, the seventh period of one thousand years from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930.

 

[M O N S T E R]

If a God exists, no matter who he is, it is reasonable to assume that if he wanted to, he would easily be able to increase the number of theists in the world. For instance, if a supposed God showed up in tangible form, and instantly created a large building in New York City, and accurately predicted when and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, it is a given that some atheists and agnostics would become theists as a result. Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

If a supposed God like that showed up, and treated people right, I would become one of his followers. I would not have any way of verifying his true identity, but I would not care about that any more than I care about whether or not President Obama is an alien. There are not any good reasons to assume that President Obama is an alien, and there would not be any good reasons to assume that the supposed God in my hypothetical scenario was not who he said he was.

 

[S-word]

If a God exists, no matter who he is, it is reasonable to assume that if he wanted to, he would easily be able to increase the number of theists in the world. For instance, if a supposed God showed up in tangible form, and instantly created a large building in New York City, and accurately predicted when and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, it is a given that some atheists and agnostics would become theists as a result. Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

If a supposed God like that showed up, and treated people right, I would become one of his followers. I would not have any way of verifying his true identity, but I would not care about that any more than I care about whether or not President Obama is an alien. There are not any good reasons to assume that President Obama is an alien, and there would not be any good reasons to assume that the supposed God in my hypothetical scenario was not who he said he was.

The flesh is of no use at all it is his words, his thoughts, the mind that is he, which gives life.

We all share the one eternal soul, which is the divine animating principle that activates and permeates all that is, and we all share the universal elements from which our physical bodies are created, it is only the mind that counts, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and the mind is expanded not by the receiving of the knowledge of who and where we can find God, but in our search for him.

God is there to be found by all who will search for him. It's up to you to seek out the eternal life that has been offered: seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened.

Those who wait for the truth to be revealed will fall short of the glory that is God on earth, the new kingdom of God which will dwell on earth among mankind, the glorious and brilliant Temple of light, which is created by the spitiual cells that are united to the first fruits, the first of many brothers, who was chosen as the cornerstone to the new Kingdom of God on earth which will supersede the old tent and tempory earthly dwelling place of Godhead, which is the body of mankind.

For the kingdom of God is within you, the most high in the creation and Lord of creatures; the prototype of the Lord of spirits who is the 'Son of Man' the new creation in the ever evolving mind that is God, which mind is represented as the visible universe.

 

[ayani]

Monster ~

actually, these claims of His can be worked to and through logically.

i recommend, if you're interested, the book "The Case for Christ". it goes through the arguments of Christian faith critically and logically.

not every question is finally answered. but it's worth reading for one's self.

i don't accept His claims entirely on faith. second-hand faith is never what i've wanted for myself. i came to Christian faith from another religion, and what dominated my issues with Christian faith was a demand for logical explanations, and reason.

my faith came after study, thoughtful comparisons, reading, and prayer. that is one way to come to faith, but of course there are many.

Message to ayani: Declaring that God did this, and that God said that does not constitute reasonable evidence in debates. It is a waste of your time and other people's time for you to make uncorroborated guesses and speculations. How do you propose that people try to reasonably verify the claims that 1) the God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth, 2) a global flood occured, 3) Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, 4) Jesus was born of a virgin, 5) Jesus never sinnned, and 6) Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind?

Those are very important claims. Do you accept them entirely based upon faith, or is it your position that common sense, logic, and reason are useful for trying to reasonably verify the claims? Perhaps you became Christians because of emotional reasons disguised as faith.

 

[ayani]

I've said it before, I have no problem with your beliefs. The Christians I have a problem with are the ones that you also seem to have a problem with. The ones who would say that (from your example) the baptist would be favoured over the Hindu. How can a Christian be favoured over an equally faithful (or more faithful) Muslim?

the issues between Islam and Christianity are difficult.

Islam claims the full truth about Jesus, yet denies nearly everything which makes Him unique. it denies His Sonship, His crucifixion, and His resurrection. it denies His unity with God and His supremacy, all things attested to by Christ in the Gospels.

a kind and sincere Muslim may be in a better place than a cruel, selfish Christian in many regards. yet spiritually, there is a great difference between Islamic religious faith, and Christian faith.

the Isa al-Masih of the Quran and the Jesus of Nazareth of the Gospels are two wholly different people. two different portraits saying opposing things.

a Christian can and will point only to Christ as the source of spiritual truth, and rightness. a Muslim may be kind, giving, humble, and devout and those aren't bad qualities at all. yet a Christian would point out that he is still in spiritual darkness regarding the nature of God and the things pretaining to Him. the Muslim has a faith and a religious culture, but as he does not have the Son of God, he's missing out on something huge and vital.

there is a differnece. God judges deeds and fruits more than labels. we can't hide the wickedness of our souls behind a label, if our souls are wicked and we've lived a life disapointing to our God. at the same time there is a real, vital, living message to be grasped in Christ, which can be found in no other teacher or path. the spiritual difference is real, and the fruits of His Spirit are real as well.

 

[HoldemDB9]

the issues between Islam and Christianity are difficult.

Islam claims the full truth about Jesus, yet denies nearly everything which makes Him unique. it denies His Sonship, His crucifixion, and His resurrection. it denies His unity with God and His supremacy, all things attested to by Christ in the Gospels.

a kind and sincere Muslim may be in a better place than a cruel, selfish Christian in many regards. yet spiritually, there is a great difference between Islamic religious faith, and Christian faith.

the Isa al-Masih of the Quran and the Jesus of Nazareth of the Gospels are two wholly different people. two different portraits saying opposing things.

a Christian can and will point only to Christ as the source of spiritual truth, and rightness. a Muslim may be kind, giving, humble, and devout and those aren't bad qualities at all. yet a Christian would point out that he is still in spiritual darkness regarding the nature of God and the things pretaining to Him. the Muslim has a faith and a religious culture, but as he does not have the Son of God, he's missing out on something huge and vital.

there is a differnece. God judges deeds and fruits more than labels. we can't hide the wickedness of our souls behind a label, if our souls are wicked and we've lived a life disapointing to our God. at the same time there is a real, vital, living message to be grasped in Christ, which can be found in no other teacher or path. the spiritual difference is real, and the fruits of His Spirit are real as well.

Its not about how different the two religions are. I just used Islam as an example. My point is why God would favour Christians over non-Christians, saying "because its true" is not a reason. The Christian has to have done something better or more reward worthy than the non-Christian. You cannot just say that they will be rewarded because they were right, that is not fair. There are people who are trying harder than many many Christians - to find truth and to be good people. To say that God will favour the Christians who tried less is not fair. They just happened to be right, they did nothing better than a non-believer. If they did nothing better then it would not make sense for God to favour them. The belief that God will favour ALL Christians over ALL non-Christians makes zero sense.

 

[McBell]

The belief that God will favour ALL none Christians over ALL non-Christians makes zero sense.

Since when has religion been worried about making sense?

 

[M O N S T E R]

ayani, I have to be direct here, but: you and your fellow religionists have swallowed a lie. A pernicious lie. There could be nothing more twisted than to have taken in the notion that ANYONE deserves hell, let alone every person for just being born human.

Christianity operates like any con man, or the typical abusive boy friend or husband. It sells you the disease in order to sell you the cure. Many people wonder why so many woman stay with abusive partners. It just doesn't seem reasonable. Why not "just leave?"

Well, because there are powerful psychological tricks at play. Very often the woman has been convinced (usually by the abuser) that she is worthless. Undeserving. Undeserving of anyone's love and attention but..."Even though you're a miserable wretch and don't deserve it, you have me: I'll love you, even though you don't deserve it. I'm your only hope, so you have to stay with me if you want forgiveness and love!"

Similar techniques are used by cults: the cult leader "puts the followers in their place," gives some ridiculous story about how if they don't kiss up to him they are doomed, and offers them "love" in return.

It's obvious to any outside observer that the abused woman and the cult devotee ought to escape. But the psychological, cognitive tricks...once taken in, once made part of "who the person is"...are just that powerful.

Christianity is (in many of it's forms) a more popular form of this trick.

"Admit you are a sinner! You must acknowledge it. You aren't WORTHY..don't even DESERVE the love of your maker. In fact YOU DESERVE HELL! But...don't worry...admit you are a sinner, absorb that
picture of yourself...and now...VOILA!...the cure...here's Jesus! Pledge your life to him and he'll love you...EVEN though we all understand you don't deserve it!

THANK YOU! THANK YOU JESUS! I'm so grateful!

And then you combine that type of powerful psychological manipulation - which often is most effective when people are at their weakest or lowest points - with a host of other in-built tricks that effectively shield the religious assumptions from real critical scrutiny - e.g. "Who are We to question God?" - and you have a psychological web that is very hard to escape.

People outside Christianity can see these "confidence tricks" a mile away. Just like any Christian can see a cult member ought to get out, or an abused women. But the Christians can't see their own situation.

Until some of them are lucky enough to wake up, look back and see clearly all the cognitive tricks, the religious strategies, they had routinely absorbed from other members of their religion, to perpetuate their religious beliefs. Seems obvious once you are out of it.

I hope you can open your eyes some more ayani: ask yourself whether it matters that what you believe is true or not. And if it does matter to you, you should be questioning your most basic religious assumptions...whether it's even reasonable to hold them.

Question whether it's actually reasonable to take the tale of one ancient desert tribe - among all the religious, superstitious delusions of human history - as somehow veridical. Does it REALLY make sense to do so? And don't start from an assumption the biblical God is a good character. That's not the way to actually examine whether that belief make sense. Try REALLY reading the bible, asking "Is it actually the most reasonable inference from the description of what this God character says and does, that He would actually be The Moral Standard? Does the bible actually READ like that God is the Wisest person one could ever imagine?

Not when you realise how many things God says that sound as limited and non-omniscient as any other person...and not when God seems to share pretty much the same limited moral horizon as the ancient people who wrote the stories (e.g. God doesn't seem any more enlightened about slavery being a bad idea than...well...the ancient person writing that story). Not, when you are reading what is purportedly the message of the Most Wise Being Of All, you secretly find yourself wondering if what He just said was really all that wise...and find yourself looking for excuses to either ignore certain of the portions concerning this All Wise Being...or looking for how other Christians excused them.

That shouldn't be happening - there shouldn't even BE an apologetics industry - if the bible really did represent the best we have on morality, the wisest anyone has ever been! Wouldn't the wisest of all books stand the test of time, rather than create a flourishing industry of people making EXCUSES for what it says and trying to say to each other "Really...this part looks bad but we can ignore it because X or it really has to mean Y..."

Certainly religion has it's compensations: the social network, and some of the story can fit some emotional desires or needs. But it's often when someone de-converts that the other side of the coin - the negatives - of having been Christian come into relief: Living a life believing, worrying, about an entire supernatural realm, in which your fate lies, that doesn't even exist. Grappling with all those vexing (if you are a thinking person) theological conundrums "Why would God do X?..." Trying to constantly juggle the supernatural beliefs you've been handed against the constant
oppression of real-world facts. The flourishing of time consuming and unnecessary "why" questions that naturally arise when you posit the fiction that a Supernatural Person is behind reality. (An earthquake that kills people is a natural tragedy and it's natural to inquire how they occur...but positing a God attaches to EVERY such instance an additional question: "Why?").

Many who de-convert find themselves actually relieved of all the superstitions, religious, mental baggage that they carried...just assumed...along with their religious belief.

 

[Falvlun]

well, Romans 1:20 says that He has given the created world as evidence of His handiwork.

While I agree that the Earth is beautiful and the universe is awe-inspiring, it hardly points conclusively to the Christian God. Heck, it doesn't even necessarily point to a Creator, period. There are other explanations, without hypothesizing the existence of a Being to account for it.

Now, perhaps if he had arranged the mountains to spell out his name, now that might have been something...

But as it stands, the earth itself is not really some slam-dunk proof for God.

 

[ayani]

They just happened to be right, they did nothing better than a non-believer. If they did nothing better then it would not make sense for God to favour them. The belief that God will favour ALL Christians over ALL non-Christians makes zero sense.

it's not a matter of what they have done. it's a matter of Whom they have believed.

to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and to decide that He alone is worthy to be known and followed is what brings God's grace flooding in. no person, wherever they come from, whatever good or evil they may have done, whatever faith they may have professed and followed, all of that is rendered null in light of Jesus' grace, and the inpouring of the Holy Spirit. the person is new, and reconciled to God.

now, what this means is that the new believer is in fact a new person. free, in Christ, to live for God and to live for one's fellow man in a new way. his relationship to God is different, exactly because through and in the Son, He knows God in a new, bright, and graced way. it's a kind of love between the believer and God which is uniquely Christ-given.

this doesn't mean that God doesn't see and acknowledge the sincerity and good works of others. He does. but good works can not reconcile us spiritually to the God who made us.

so what matters more to God? ultimately we are judged by our fruits. yet we can be saved / reconciled personally to God only through faith in Christ. a Christian will bear Christ-like fruits and have the spiritual difference of knowing God through His Son. a non-Christian can bear Christ-like fruits, yet the indwelling of the Holy Spirit won't be there. a professed Christian, whether or not he has believed, who dirties the name of Christ by bearing no Christian fruit, like the fruitless tree, will be chopped down, regardless of faith label.

 

[ayani]

While I agree that the Earth is beautiful and the universe is awe-inspiring, it hardly points conclusively to the Christian God. Heck, it doesn't even necessarily point to a Creator, period. There are other explanations, without hypothesizing the existence of a Being to account for it.

Now, perhaps if he had arranged the mountains to spell out his name, now that might have been something...

But as it stands, the earth itself is not really some slam-dunk proof for God.

perhaps not for all people, but it's certainly a means to point the way to His existence.

if it's a miracle to prove not only His reality but His ability to break into our world in a supernatural way you're looking for... i'd refer to the Gospel narratives.

 

[astarath]

interesting....comments on both sides. Althought generalisations on both. My faith in Christ is not to accept a degradation of myself. I see myself as the same as anyone else. I think the scripture "not one is righteous." Really somes it up! We are human in all the good and bad that entails. What does grasp me out of christianity that I wasnt finding in atheism was "Great your human in nature now what? What are you going to do now? "
Christianity outlined tenets which their divinity aside lay down a firm structure for a morality and furthermore a purpose to strive to achieve them. Not out of fear but out of love.

 

[ayani]

perhaps no different from anyone else, you're right. we're all human, and all prone to error, and all in need of His grace. we're all capable of kindness and meanness.

yet different in relation to God. not by our merit or innate worthiness, but because of Him. there's something new in Christ, something that wasn't there before, and which makes everything different. it's a new perspective, and a new life in relation to our Creator.

and so in that sense, we *are* different from others. we're still human and prone to sin. we still have feelings and faults, and ups and downs. but what He has done within us changes us, and makes us different. we are in the world, but no longer of it. we are alive not just physically, but spiritually, too. so yeah, we're different.

not innately better by our own merit, but different because of Him, and better for knowing Him.

 

[Know the Truth]

While I agree that the Earth is beautiful and the universe is awe-inspiring, it hardly points conclusively to the Christian God. Heck, it doesn't even necessarily point to a Creator, period. There are other explanations, without hypothesizing the existence of a Being to account for it.

Now, perhaps if he had arranged the mountains to spell out his name, now that might have been something...

But as it stands, the earth itself is not really some slam-dunk proof for God.

The interesting thing that Scripture says is that although the creation may not be slam-dunk proof, it is enough evidence to render every human without excuse when they stand before Him one day.