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Does the Bible Contradict Itself ?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Quote "Luke needed an excuse to get Jesus born in Bethlehem."
If it's all some "cunningly devised fable" then why not make this mythic person called Jesus a native born Bethlehemite to begin with?
Fact is, we don't know everything related to these events. I recall people once said that the town of Nazareth didn't exist, until someone found it.


You seem to be having a hard time grasping the fact that a character can be partly real and partly myth. An extreme example is Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer. Stupid movie, but you should watch it. There probably was a real "Jesus of Nazareth" that the story is based upon. But it is obvious that the authors of the Gospels juiced it up a bit here and there. They felt a need to "fulfill" as many prophecies as possible since he did not fulfill the clear messianic prophecies. The author of Luke was a bit inept. He got his facts partially right, but his times wrong. Quirinius was a governor of Syria and oversaw Judea and there was a highly unpopular census taken in 6 CE. It was unpopular because of course it was for taxation purposes. He got that right. The problem was that it was ten years to late and no census would require one to go to his ancient homeland. That makes no sense. Taxes at that time were based upon where people lived when the census was taken. The same is done today. For example most people do not realize it but illegal aliens do affect the census and how much power a state has. Everyone is counted in the ten year census, which sets the number of seats that a state gets in congress. There is no exception made for non-citizens. California probably has at least one seat in congress due to its illegal alien population. I will have to double check the figures, but that can happen. People in censuses are counted where they live. Back then and today. Not where they were from.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It seems to be taking a rather long time to check something that is rather obvious.

At any rate I will soldier on. Jesus was from Nazareth. That was where his parents lived. Luke needed an excuse to get Jesus born in Bethlehem. So he claimed that Rome declared that all the world needed to be taxed and so there was a census that required everyone to return to their ancestral homes. This fails for three reasons. At no time was there one universal census for the territories of Rome (please note I am ignoring the non-Roman part of the world). And no census required the ridiculous concept of people returning to their ancestral homes. Censuses taken for tax purposes counts people where. They live and earn money. It would make no sense to tax them where they came from a thousand years ago. And lastly, the only possible census occurred roughly ten years after the death of Herod putting Jesus's birth in Luke roughly ten years after his birth in Matthew.Matthew .

Luke even mentioned who did the census. The census he had to have been talking about was the census of Quirinius:


Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia
Thank you.

How many census were they?
Throughout history, there were many.
The Census, the first and principal duty of the censors, was always held in the Campus Martius, and from the year 435 BC onwards,

The measures of taxation in the reign of Augustus were determined by population census, with fixed quotas for each province. Citizens of Rome and Italy paid indirect taxes, while direct taxes were exacted from the provinces.

The scriptures mentioned two.

Luke 2:1, 2
1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered. 2 (This first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria.).

Acts 5:37 
After him, Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the registration, and he drew followers after himself. That man also perished, and all those who were following him were scattered.

Inscriptions give evidence that Quirinius served earlier terms.
Fragment of the sepulchral inscription of Quirinius
...the inscription in question, with the term "leg (atus) iterum ..." ("... twice legate") attests to the possibility of that Quirinius held an earlier post in Syria: on that occasion he could have overseen a more approximate estimate of the population, thus limiting the presumed discrepancy between historical sources and the passage from the Gospel according to Luke.

Inscriptiones Latinae Selectae
The second inscription reads:

"To C. Caristanius Fronto Caesianus Iulius, son of Gaius, from the tribe of Sergia, prefect of civil engineers, military tribune of twelfth legion, prefect of the Bosporan cohort, priest, prefect of P. Sulpicius Quirinius, duumvir, prefect of Marcus Servilius, prefect . . ."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Thank you.

How many census were they?
Throughout history, there were many.
The Census, the first and principal duty of the censors, was always held in the Campus Martius, and from the year 435 BC onwards,

The measures of taxation in the reign of Augustus were determined by population census, with fixed quotas for each province. Citizens of Rome and Italy paid indirect taxes, while direct taxes were exacted from the provinces.

The scriptures mentioned two.

Luke 2:1, 2
1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered. 2 (This first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria.).

Rome was good about keeping records of such events. That census was ten years after Jesus was born according to Matthew. We also know when and here Quirinius was. When Jesus was born, at least according to Matthew he was running a military campaign in what is now Turkey.

Acts 5:37 
After him, Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the registration, and he drew followers after himself. That man also perished, and all those who were following him were scattered.

Inscriptions give evidence that Quirinius served earlier terms.
Fragment of the sepulchral inscription of Quirinius
...the inscription in question, with the term "leg (atus) iterum ..." ("... twice legate") attests to the possibility of that Quirinius held an earlier post in Syria: on that occasion he could have overseen a more approximate estimate of the population, thus limiting the presumed discrepancy between historical sources and the passage from the Gospel according to Luke.

Inscriptiones Latinae Selectae
The second inscription reads:

"To C. Caristanius Fronto Caesianus Iulius, son of Gaius, from the tribe of Sergia, prefect of civil engineers, military tribune of twelfth legion, prefect of the Bosporan cohort, priest, prefect of P. Sulpicius Quirinius, duumvir, prefect of Marcus Servilius, prefect . . ."

Can you find a valid source that supports that claim? I have looked into the history of the man and he was nowhere near the area according to all of history that I am aware of:

Quirinius - Wikipedia
P. Sulpicius Quirinius - Livius
The Jury Is In: Luke and Quirinius

The first three non-Bible based source I could find. All of them put Quirinius in Turkey at the time of Jesus's birth. I could probably find more. Even Bible based sources admit that this is a problem. The last one goes into detail why the various excuses fail. And that includes your supposed inscription.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Rome was good about keeping records of such events. That census was ten years after Jesus was born according to Matthew. We also know when and here Quirinius was. When Jesus was born, at least according to Matthew he was running a military campaign in what is now Turkey.



Can you find a valid source that supports that claim? I have looked into the history of the man and he was nowhere near the area according to all of history that I am aware of:

Quirinius - Wikipedia
P. Sulpicius Quirinius - Livius
The Jury Is In: Luke and Quirinius

The first three non-Bible based source I could find. All of them put Quirinius in Turkey at the time of Jesus's birth. I could probably find more. Even Bible based sources admit that this is a problem. The last one goes into detail why the various excuses fail. And that includes your supposed inscription.
Luke mentions two.
What are you suggesting...that he lied? Then you must prove that.
What is wrong with the evidence I gave from the inscriptions?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
You seem to be having a hard time grasping the fact that a character can be partly real and partly myth. An extreme example is Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer. Stupid movie, but you should watch it. There probably was a real "Jesus of Nazareth" that the story is based upon. But it is obvious that the authors of the Gospels juiced it up a bit here and there. They felt a need to "fulfill" as many prophecies as possible since he did not fulfill the clear messianic prophecies. The author of Luke was a bit inept. He got his facts partially right, but his times wrong. Quirinius was a governor of Syria and oversaw Judea and there was a highly unpopular census taken in 6 CE. It was unpopular because of course it was for taxation purposes. He got that right. The problem was that it was ten years to late and no census would require one to go to his ancient homeland. That makes no sense. Taxes at that time were based upon where people lived when the census was taken. The same is done today. For example most people do not realize it but illegal aliens do affect the census and how much power a state has. Everyone is counted in the ten year census, which sets the number of seats that a state gets in congress. There is no exception made for non-citizens. California probably has at least one seat in congress due to its illegal alien population. I will have to double check the figures, but that can happen. People in censuses are counted where they live. Back then and today. Not where they were from.

We don't have access to all the information. We don't even know the date Jesus was born. Why make a "story" when your audience will say, "Wait a minute, WHY did Joseph and Mary go to Bethlehem?!! That's not true!"
Just as "inventing" the town of Nazareth (as people once claimed) when you could dream up any well known place. For that matter, why use Nazareth at all, given it was a bad town in the state of ill repute, Galilee.
Fact is - we don't know.
The author could just have easily said, "They were visiting their relatives in Bethlehem at the time of the census." But no, he mentioned a link to a census and said this family had to be there. Who knows.
And fact is - skeptics focus on something believers can't answer but ignore the things believers CAN answer. Sounds sus' to me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Luke mentions two.
What are you suggesting...that he lied? Then you must prove that.
What is wrong with the evidence I gave from the inscriptions?

There may have been later ones, but the one in year 6 was clearly the first.

Why do you think it matters if there are later censuses? You seem to have forgotten that Quirinius did that as his first act as governor in the year 6 CE.

You are not thinking logically.

And you used a biased source. It is of no use in a debate. Apologist sites have the job of lying for Jesus. The last sources that I gave was biased too, but they refuted the claim that you made with references to quite a few different sources. I suggest that you check it out. The first two sites I used were merely historical in nature. Their goal is like Joe Friday's: Just the facts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We don't have access to all the information. We don't even know the date Jesus was born. Why make a "story" when your audience will say, "Wait a minute, WHY did Joseph and Mary go to Bethlehem?!! That's not true!"
Just as "inventing" the town of Nazareth (as people once claimed) when you could dream up any well known place. For that matter, why use Nazareth at all, given it was a bad town in the state of ill repute, Galilee.
Fact is - we don't know.
The author could just have easily said, "They were visiting their relatives in Bethlehem at the time of the census." But no, he mentioned a link to a census and said this family had to be there. Who knows.
And fact is - skeptics focus on something believers can't answer but ignore the things believers CAN answer. Sounds sus' to me.

The problem is that the dates contradict each other. The date in Luke contradicts itself. And in case you forgot the title of the thread is "Contradictions in the Bible".

Who knows why the author of Luke screwed up so badly. His excuse for getting Jesus to Bethlehem was worse than Matthews no reason at all for going there.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
There may have been later ones, but the one in year 6 was clearly the first.

Why do you think it matters if there are later censuses? You seem to have forgotten that Quirinius did that as his first act as governor in the year 6 CE.

You are not thinking logically.

And you used a biased source. It is of no use in a debate. Apologist sites have the job of lying for Jesus. The last sources that I gave was biased too, but they refuted the claim that you made with references to quite a few different sources. I suggest that you check it out. The first two sites I used were merely historical in nature. Their goal is like Joe Friday's: Just the facts.
You don't know that it was his first.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes, I do. Where he was is well recorded. He was in Turkey at the time. In fact my third source gives who was the governor in Syria at that time.
You know that a census was given. You don't know that others weren't given. I gave you a link. On what grounds do you dismiss it, as it gives support to Luke's account?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You know that a census was given. You don't know that others weren't given. I gave you a link. On what grounds do you dismiss it, as it gives support to Luke's account?
You are forgetting what the Bible says now. It tells who gave the census. Or are you saying that there is an error in the Bible? And I gave you a link that refuted yours in spades.

And even if, and that is a huge if that you cannot get over, you have the ridiculous problem of a census ordering people to do something that makes no sense, and that would disrupt the local economy to no end if they tried to follow the order. People are taxed where they live. Not where they came from. It is just a bad story. Relying on it makes Christianity look foolish.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
The problem is that the dates contradict each other. The date in Luke contradicts itself. And in case you forgot the title of the thread is "Contradictions in the Bible".

Who knows why the author of Luke screwed up so badly. His excuse for getting Jesus to Bethlehem was worse than Matthews no reason at all for going there.

Luke was one of the greatest historians of the ancient world. He is not acknowledged as such because he wrote about theological issues. I am sure he didn't "screw up" but rather paid close attention to details - but from different sources. Polybius and Pliny didn't "screw up" with Hannibal, they used different sources too.
People who say the New Testament was a later work of fiction cannot explain how there appear to be discrepancies in the accounts. Why weren't these ironed out before they went to print? Because they employ different sources, are recollections of events or they are interpretations. Indeed, the four Gospels present four different Messiahs.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Luke was one of the greatest historians of the ancient world. He is not acknowledged as such because he wrote about theological issues. I am sure he didn't "screw up" but rather paid close attention to details - but from different sources. Polybius and Pliny didn't "screw up" with Hannibal, they used different sources too.
People who say the New Testament was a later work of fiction cannot explain how there appear to be discrepancies in the accounts. Why weren't these ironed out before they went to print? Because they employ different sources, are recollections of events or they are interpretations. Indeed, the four Gospels present four different Messiahs.


The author of Luke was not necessarily Luke, and Luke's supposed expertise in history was really knowledge of the world of his time. He knew the locations of cities etc. I know of nothing that confirms him as a historian. When the book of Luke was challenged in the past it was not the history that was challenged, it was the place names that he used. People doubted that they existed. Turns out his geography was very accurate. Geography and history are not the same thing.

Who knows why this myth was not fixed. It could have been due to a lack of Christian historians. It could be because, like now, it is a well loved story and people did not care to mess with it. It has been checked now and found to be rather full of holes.


You are going to need a much stronger defense than wild hand flapping.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You are forgetting what the Bible says now. It tells who gave the census. Or are you saying that there is an error in the Bible? And I gave you a link that refuted yours in spades.

And even if, and that is a huge if that you cannot get over, you have the ridiculous problem of a census ordering people to do something that makes no sense, and that would disrupt the local economy to no end if they tried to follow the order. People are taxed where they live. Not where they came from. It is just a bad story. Relying on it makes Christianity look foolish.
Yes. I did quote the Bible.
This is what I said.

There were two census recorded in Luke's account.

(1) Luke 2:1, 2
2 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered. 2 (This first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria.)
(2) Acts 5:37
After him, Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the registration, and he drew followers after himself. That man also perished, and all those who were following him were scattered.

The second census - Acts 5:37 - refers to the one given by Quirinius - the one which resulted in rebellion.
If you disagree, please prove that Luke's reference to the first census is really referring to the census given by Quirinius.

The link I provided of the discovered inscription is in line with this evidence. I'll give it again, and please tell me what is your grounds for dismissing it - if any.

Fragment of the sepulchral inscription of Quirinius
the inscription in question, with the term "leg (atus) iterum ..." ("... twice legate") attests to the possibility of that Quirinius held an earlier post in Syria: on that occasion he could have overseen a more approximate estimate of the population, thus limiting the presumed discrepancy between historical sources and the passage from the Gospel according to Luke.

It is evident that Luke's accounts are accurate in its detail.

Where your problem lies is with misinterpretation of secular sources like this one.
Census of Quirinius
The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE. The author of the Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1-5), but Luke places the census within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 10 years earlier in 4 BCE. No satisfactory explanation of the contradiction seems possible on the basis of present knowledge, and most scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.

This simply is not true. It happens when people interpret the Bible wrong.
If you disagree, please provide proof that Luke used the Census of Quirinius at Luke 2:1, 2.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes. I did quote the Bible.
This is what I said.

There were two census recorded in Luke's account.

(1) Luke 2:1, 2
2 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered. 2 (This first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria.)

Right, this is the one that Luke screwed up about. By the way, he screwed the pooch in more ways than one. First off no such decree "went out" from Caesar Augustus. There was no one single all Roman census. They had gone on before his time and after his time. That was the first one in Judea. Can you understand the difference and your error there? We know when Quirinus had his first census. It was roughly ten years after Jesus was born.

(2) Acts 5:37
After him, Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the registration, and he drew followers after himself. That man also perished, and all those who were following him were scattered.

The second census - Acts 5:37 - refers to the one given by Quirinius - the one which resulted in rebellion.
If you disagree, please prove that Luke's reference to the first census is really referring to the census given by Quirinius.

Qurinius may have had more than one census. You seem to be having a hard time understanding how this does not matter. It is the first one that we are talking about that was ten years too late.

The link I provided of the discovered inscription is in line with this evidence. I'll give it again, and please tell me what is your grounds for dismissing it - if any.

Fragment of the sepulchral inscription of Quirinius
the inscription in question, with the term "leg (atus) iterum ..." ("... twice legate") attests to the possibility of that Quirinius held an earlier post in Syria: on that occasion he could have overseen a more approximate estimate of the population, thus limiting the presumed discrepancy between historical sources and the passage from the Gospel according to Luke.

And the link that I gave refuted that nonsense. I asked you to find a valid source and you could not. My source is also biased, but they site actual experts that refute your Christian make believe site. Here it is again:

The Jury Is In: Luke and Quirinius

Here is all that your site says, without any references at all to what actual scholars say about that "fragment":

"The inscription, found near Tivoli in 1764, probably belonged to the tomb of Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, "

Probably? No scholars that support the claim. Meanwhile the source that I used sited the work of experts in the field. For example:

"
Taxes were collected on a province-by-province basis, either by a local tax collection franchise (the publicans), or by tribute (e.g., during Herod's kingdom). There would be no Roman-administered census in areas controlled directly by Herod or his family, as was the case in both Judaea and Galilee during the years around the birth of Jesus.

There is absolutely no support to Luke's implication of worldwide census or a empire-wide tax. In fact, it is quite contrary to well-documented practice.

(T1) J.P.V.D. Balsdon. _Rome: The Story of an Empire_. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1970.

Balsdon describes the organization of the Empire, in terms of Public provinces and Imperial provinces. Egypt is a special case. Judaea became an imperial equestrian province in 6 CE.

(T2) A. H. M. Jones. _The Roman Economy: Studies in Ancient Economic and Administrative History_. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1974. Reference to Luke 2 on p. 165, n. 81.

Luke is taken as evidence of taxation-related censuses, " ... (though his date is wrong, and he is mistaken, if he implies that the census was taken everywhere at the same time; Suidas s.v. apographe is worthless)."


Jones emphasizes that the 14 year tax cycles in Egypt does not apply to other provinces. Each province had a separate tax administration, often taxing different things, or at different rates.

"


It is evident that Luke's accounts are accurate in its detail.

Please, it is evident that reality poses a huge problem for you.
Where your problem lies is with misinterpretation of secular sources like this one.
Census of Quirinius
The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE. The author of the Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1-5), but Luke places the census within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 10 years earlier in 4 BCE. No satisfactory explanation of the contradiction seems possible on the basis of present knowledge, and most scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.

This simply is not true. It happens when people interpret the Bible wrong.
If you disagree, please provide proof that Luke used the Census of Quirinius at Luke 2:1, 2.


I already proved that at best he referred to the Census of Qurinius.

First off Luke specifically mentioned Quirinius. I sited several sources that put him in a military campaign in what is now Turkey at the time of Jesus's birth. That alone shows that Luke was wrong. Second the third source that I used explained why that Judea was not subject to Roman tax while Herod was king. They taxed through tribute which Herod would have collected himself. Third, and this one you have not been able to touch and my article that I linked twice now explains this t, one simply does not move too another city just to take a census. That is counter productive and rather idiotic. The Romans were not idiots when it came to their taxes.

I have provided multiple sources, both biased and neutral that refuted your claims. You found one extremely biased and bogus source (they could not support their work with any reference to scholars) that claimed a fragment might have been from Quirinius's tomb. I have met my burden of proof. You have merely flapped your arms and quacked.

EDIT: One more point about the Tivoli inscription. Even if it is from Quirinius's tomb, and there is doubt of that, your source misinterpreted the Latin. From my much better source (it refers to the scholars that its claims are based upon, yours had nothing in that regards):

"
The Tivoli inscription has nevertheless been cited to support the view that a second legateship for Quirinius would have been possible. This is actually a mistranslation; properly, it should say that the person, being a legate of Augustus for the second time, "he received Syria and Phoenicia." That is, the person performed public service twice, and the last time, he was legate to Syria (Anchor Bible, p. 403).

It is unheard of that a proconsul would become a legate of the emperor twice in the same province (see J. G. C. Anderson, _Cambridge Ancient History_ 10 [1934] 878; R. Syme, "Titulus Tiburtinus," 590)."

Quirinius was a legate twice in two different provinces. He was not a legate twice in the same province. We have a good history on the man. Where he was and when has been explained. You only have a mistranslation of a fragment.
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
Right, this is the one that Luke screwed up about. By the way, he screwed the pooch in more ways than one. First off no such decree "went out" from Caesar Augustus. There was no one single all Roman census. They had gone on before his time and after his time. That was the first one in Judea. Can you understand the difference and your error there? We know when Quirinus had his first census. It was roughly ten years after Jesus was born.



Qurinius may have had more than one census. You seem to be having a hard time understanding how this does not matter. It is the first one that we are talking about that was ten years too late.



And the link that I gave refuted that nonsense. I asked you to find a valid source and you could not. My source is also biased, but they site actual experts that refute your Christian make believe site. Here it is again:

The Jury Is In: Luke and Quirinius

Here is all that your site says, without any references at all to what actual scholars say about that "fragment":

"The inscription, found near Tivoli in 1764, probably belonged to the tomb of Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, "

Probably? No scholars that support the claim. Meanwhile the source that I used sited the work of experts in the field. For example:

"
Taxes were collected on a province-by-province basis, either by a local tax collection franchise (the publicans), or by tribute (e.g., during Herod's kingdom). There would be no Roman-administered census in areas controlled directly by Herod or his family, as was the case in both Judaea and Galilee during the years around the birth of Jesus.

There is absolutely no support to Luke's implication of worldwide census or a empire-wide tax. In fact, it is quite contrary to well-documented practice.

(T1) J.P.V.D. Balsdon. _Rome: The Story of an Empire_. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1970.

Balsdon describes the organization of the Empire, in terms of Public provinces and Imperial provinces. Egypt is a special case. Judaea became an imperial equestrian province in 6 CE.

(T2) A. H. M. Jones. _The Roman Economy: Studies in Ancient Economic and Administrative History_. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1974. Reference to Luke 2 on p. 165, n. 81.

Luke is taken as evidence of taxation-related censuses, " ... (though his date is wrong, and he is mistaken, if he implies that the census was taken everywhere at the same time; Suidas s.v. apographe is worthless)."


Jones emphasizes that the 14 year tax cycles in Egypt does not apply to other provinces. Each province had a separate tax administration, often taxing different things, or at different rates.

"




Please, it is evident that reality poses a huge problem for you.



I already proved that at best he referred to the Census of Qurinius.

First off Luke specifically mentioned Quirinius. I sited several sources that put him in a military campaign in what is now Turkey at the time of Jesus's birth. That alone shows that Luke was wrong. Second the third source that I used explained why that Judea was not subject to Roman tax while Herod was king. They taxed through tribute which Herod would have collected himself. Third, and this one you have not been able to touch and my article that I linked twice now explains this t, one simply does not move too another city just to take a census. That is counter productive and rather idiotic. The Romans were not idiots when it came to their taxes.

I have provided multiple sources, both biased and neutral that refuted your claims. You found one extremely biased and bogus source (they could not support their work with any reference to scholars) that claimed a fragment might have been from Quirinius's tomb. I have met my burden of proof. You have merely flapped your arms and quacked.

EDIT: One more point about the Tivoli inscription. Even if it is from Quirinius's tomb, and there is doubt of that, your source misinterpreted the Latin. From my much better source (it refers to the scholars that its claims are based upon, yours had nothing in that regards):

"
The Tivoli inscription has nevertheless been cited to support the view that a second legateship for Quirinius would have been possible. This is actually a mistranslation; properly, it should say that the person, being a legate of Augustus for the second time, "he received Syria and Phoenicia." That is, the person performed public service twice, and the last time, he was legate to Syria (Anchor Bible, p. 403).

It is unheard of that a proconsul would become a legate of the emperor twice in the same province (see J. G. C. Anderson, _Cambridge Ancient History_ 10 [1934] 878; R. Syme, "Titulus Tiburtinus," 590)."

Quirinius was a legate twice in two different provinces. He was not a legate twice in the same province. We have a good history on the man. Where he was and when has been explained. You only have a mistranslation of a fragment.
Please watch your vulgarity, otherwise talk to someone else.
Are you getting angry or something? Please consider controlling you temper.

Could you please prove that no census went out from Caesar Augustus.
Augustus restored the outward façade of the free Republic, with governmental power vested in the Roman Senate, the executive magistrates, and the legislative assemblies. In reality, however, he retained his autocratic power over the Republic as a military dictator.

By law, Augustus held a collection of powers granted to him for life by the Senate, including supreme military command, and those of tribune and censor.

Also included in Augustus' tribunician authority were powers usually reserved for the Roman censor; these included the right to supervise public morals and scrutinize laws to ensure that they were in the public interest, as well as the ability to hold a census and determine the membership of the Senate.

The measures of taxation in the reign of Augustus were determined by population census, with fixed quotas for each province. Citizens of Rome and Italy paid indirect taxes, while direct taxes were exacted from the provinces.

The Antiquity of the Jews - Josephus
CHAPTER 13. HOW ARCHELAUS UPON A SECOND ACCUSATION, WAS BANISHED TO VIENNA
So Archelaus's country was laid to the province of Syria; and Cyrenius, one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria, and to sell the house of Archelaus.

The Deeds of the Divine Augustus
By Augustus
8. I read the roll of the senate three times, and in my sixth consulate (28 B.C.E.) I made a census of the people with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague.
16. I paid the towns money for the fields which I had assigned to soldiers in my fourth consulate (30 B.C.E.) and then when Marcus Crassus and Gnaeus Lentulus Augur were consuls (14 B.C.E.); the sum was about HS 600,000,000 which I paid out for Italian estates, and about HS 260,000,000 which I paid for provincial fields. I was first and alone who did this among all who founded military colonies in Italy or the provinces according to the memory of my age. And afterwards, when Tiberius Nero and Gnaeus Piso were consuls (7 B.C.E.), and likewise when Gaius Antistius and Decius Laelius were consuls (6 B.C.E.), and when Gaius Calvisius and Lucius Passienus were consuls (4 B.C.E.), and when Lucius Lentulus and Marcus Messalla were consuls (3 B.C.E.), and when Lucius Caninius and Quintus Fabricius were consuls (2 B.C.E.) , I paid out rewards in cash to the soldiers whom I had led into their towns when their service was completed, and in this venture I spent about HS 400,000,000.

You have not address the second point.
Quintus had high ranking authority at the time.
Luke specifically mentioned Quirinius - not by saying that it was a census of Quirinius.
Where do you find anything stating that Luke was referring to the census of Quirinius in Luke 2:1, 2, other than in secular sources?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Please watch your vulgarity, otherwise talk to someone else.
Are you getting angry or something? Please consider controlling you temper.

What vulgarity? It appears that reality bothers you.

Could you please prove that no census went out from Caesar Augustus.
Augustus restored the outward façade of the free Republic, with governmental power vested in the Roman Senate, the executive magistrates, and the legislative assemblies. In reality, however, he retained his autocratic power over the Republic as a military dictator.

I already did. Did you not see how my third source explained why the first census in that area was the census of Quirinius? And worse yet your bud Luke did screw the pooch. The verses we are discussing claimed that it was the census of Quirinius. Can't you follow a conversation? Perhaps you should try to focus on one point at a time.

By law, Augustus held a collection of powers granted to him for life by the Senate, including supreme military command, and those of tribune and censor.

Also included in Augustus' tribunician authority were powers usually reserved for the Roman censor; these included the right to supervise public morals and scrutinize laws to ensure that they were in the public interest, as well as the ability to hold a census and determine the membership of the Senate.

The measures of taxation in the reign of Augustus were determined by population census, with fixed quotas for each province. Citizens of Rome and Italy paid indirect taxes, while direct taxes were exacted from the provinces.

The Antiquity of the Jews - Josephus
CHAPTER 13. HOW ARCHELAUS UPON A SECOND ACCUSATION, WAS BANISHED TO VIENNA
So Archelaus's country was laid to the province of Syria; and Cyrenius, one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria, and to sell the house of Archelaus.

The Deeds of the Divine Augustus
By Augustus
8. I read the roll of the senate three times, and in my sixth consulate (28 B.C.E.) I made a census of the people with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague.
16. I paid the towns money for the fields which I had assigned to soldiers in my fourth consulate (30 B.C.E.) and then when Marcus Crassus and Gnaeus Lentulus Augur were consuls (14 B.C.E.); the sum was about HS 600,000,000 which I paid out for Italian estates, and about HS 260,000,000 which I paid for provincial fields. I was first and alone who did this among all who founded military colonies in Italy or the provinces according to the memory of my age. And afterwards, when Tiberius Nero and Gnaeus Piso were consuls (7 B.C.E.), and likewise when Gaius Antistius and Decius Laelius were consuls (6 B.C.E.), and when Gaius Calvisius and Lucius Passienus were consuls (4 B.C.E.), and when Lucius Lentulus and Marcus Messalla were consuls (3 B.C.E.), and when Lucius Caninius and Quintus Fabricius were consuls (2 B.C.E.) , I paid out rewards in cash to the soldiers whom I had led into their towns when their service was completed, and in this venture I spent about HS 400,000,000.

This has nothing to do with the debate. We were discussing the first census in Judea. That was the census of Quirinius. The one that Luke referred to. Or are you forgetting that again?

You have not address the second point.
Quintus had high ranking authority at the time.
Luke specifically mentioned Quirinius - not by saying that it was a census of Quirinius.
Where do you find anything stating that Luke was referring to the census of Quirinius in Luke 2:1, 2, other than in secular sources?
Your sources have utterly degraded to the point of being worthless.

Let's go over the points one more time. The author of Luke, along with Matthew, puts the time of Jesus's birth in "the time of Herod". That would indicate the rule of Herod which ended in 4 BCE. Others have tried to extend it to 1 BCE, but these claims have been refuted and even if they were correct it would not be late enough. But then Luke used the bogus excuse of a census to get Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem. The story has already failed at this point. Yes, Rome did tax its provinces. Ones under its rule did have censuses taken. But censuses would never have someone go to his "ancestral home". That is pure insanity.

Second, Luke was the one that claimed it was the census of Quirinius. He said that it was when Quirinius was the governor of Syria. That is well dated too. We know where Quirnius was during the "time of Herod". He was not in Syria at that time. He had no control over the area. He could not have ordered a census. Luke himself said that it had to be the census of Quirinius since that was the only one that matched his claims.

Now you might not like it but three gross errors, and two fatal ones is screwing the pooch which is exactly what the author of Luke did. You can read more about it here:

Debunking the Nativity - Quirinius vs Herod and the Ten Year Gap

My sources refer to actual scholars whose work has been checked. I read your link, no sources were given. When the sources are checked your link fails.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What vulgarity? It appears that reality bothers you.



I already did. Did you not see how my third source explained why the first census in that area was the census of Quirinius? And worse yet your bud Luke did screw the pooch. The verses we are discussing claimed that it was the census of Quirinius. Can't you follow a conversation? Perhaps you should try to focus on one point at a time.



This has nothing to do with the debate. We were discussing the first census in Judea. That was the census of Quirinius. The one that Luke referred to. Or are you forgetting that again?


Your sources have utterly degraded to the point of being worthless.

Let's go over the points one more time. The author of Luke, along with Matthew, puts the time of Jesus's birth in "the time of Herod". That would indicate the rule of Herod which ended in 4 BCE. Others have tried to extend it to 1 BCE, but these claims have been refuted and even if they were correct it would not be late enough. But then Luke used the bogus excuse of a census to get Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem. The story has already failed at this point. Yes, Rome did tax its provinces. Ones under its rule did have censuses taken. But censuses would never have someone go to his "ancestral home". That is pure insanity.

Second, Luke was the one that claimed it was the census of Quirinius. He said that it was when Quirinius was the governor of Syria. That is well dated too. We know where Quirnius was during the "time of Herod". He was not in Syria at that time. He had no control over the area. He could not have ordered a census. Luke himself said that it had to be the census of Quirinius since that was the only one that matched his claims.

Now you might not like it but three gross errors, and two fatal ones is screwing the pooch which is exactly what the author of Luke did. You can read more about it here:

Debunking the Nativity - Quirinius vs Herod and the Ten Year Gap

My sources refer to actual scholars whose work has been checked. I read your link, no sources were given. When the sources are checked your link fails.
Show me where Luke claimed it was the census of Quirinius.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Show me where Luke claimed it was the census of Quirinius.
So you did not even read the verses? One more time, Luke 2 1 -2:

1 At that time the Roman emperor, Augustus, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire. 2 (This was the first census taken when Quirinius was governor of Syria.)

Luke 2, New Living Translation (NLT) | Chapter 2 | The Bible App | Bible.com

Tell me your preferred translation and I will provide it to you if that one is not good enough.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So you did not even read the verses? One more time, Luke 2 1 -2:

1 At that time the Roman emperor, Augustus, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire. 2 (This was the first census taken when Quirinius was governor of Syria.)

Luke 2, New Living Translation (NLT) | Chapter 2 | The Bible App | Bible.com

Tell me your preferred translation and I will provide it to you if that one is not good enough.
Okay. That's where the problem lies.
Luke 2
Verse 1
Verse 2

Luke 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.
Luke 2:2 This was the first census to take place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.
 
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