Does The Bible Contain Errors And Contradictions

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not really…. we are just sharing our perspective. No more “preaching and/or proselytizing” than anyone else.

In your opinion, of course. However, I obviously have a different opinion than you.

 

[Spice]

IMV, the Fall of Man as described in the first three chapters of Genesis is not that man became evil after eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but that mankind became able to recognize good and evil because he had taken this hidden knowledge unto himself, and therefore capable of duplicating them. Note, it's NOT the Tree of Good and Evil, but the Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. Prior to this point in the story they were only capable of recognizing reality without distinction. No concerns, no worries, for they were in Paradise.

IMO, children are sent from Paradise only recognizing reality without distinction, but with the capability to learn about Good and Evil, and therefore they grow into beings that eventually can distinguish between the two and duplicate both, if they so chose.

Jesus said he did not come for the righteous, therefore there must have been humans who were doing pretty darn good on their own in making their choices with this knowledge.

He also said that we needed to become like children in order to enter into the kingdom, so evidently he didn't consider children as "fallen" in the same way Paulinians have chosen to interpret the Garden of Eden story.

Our "Fall" only means we no longer have the protection of Paradise. Now we must look out for ourselves, the way I understand the scriptures.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, what double standard was used? And how is the use of a double standard evidence that a person is "fallen?"

Well… you stated that what she said was fact when you believed it was an opinion. Yet you stated something as fact when it also could be viewed as an opinion.

 

[Kenny]

In your opinion, of course. However, I obviously have a different opinion than you.

Exactly!! It is merely all in one’s perspective

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Exactly!!

However, it seems to me that you stated your opinion as if it were a fact rather than expressing it as a personal opinion.

You said, "Not really…. we are just sharing our perspective. No more “preaching and/or proselytizing” than anyone else."

 

[PearlSeeker]

How do you know that babies are not wicked and deserving of condemnation. Are you some kind of psychic?

Matthew 18
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I don't know what you think a fallen creature is.

What does it mean to fall in Christianity?

The fall of man, the fall of Adam, or simply the Fall, is a term used in Christianity to describe the transition of the first man and woman from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience. The doctrine of the Fall comes from a biblical interpretation of Genesis, chapters 1–3.
Fall of man - Wikipedia

And I think that's a terrible view of humanity to start from.

It is terrible to believe that all of humanity fell from grace just because of Adam and Eve disobeyed God, but if Christians did not believe in that doctrine they could not also believe that Jesus was needed to save us by dying on the cross to atone for our sins. Can't have one doctrine without the other. See how that works? The entire basis of Christianity hinges on the Fall of man and the need for a Savior to atone for our sins.

Even if there was an Adam and Eve who disobeyed God by eating that fruit from the tree, why would the descendants of Adam and Eve also be guilty? There is no justice in that. Are the parents guilty because their offspring committed a murder? No, not in any court of law.

Baha'is do not believe that Adam and Eve ever existed, we believe the garden story was an allegory, and one possible meaning is as follows:

30: ADAM AND EVE

I mean, seriously, we're having this conversation because somebody claimed that babies are wicked creatures that deserve condemnation, for goodness sakes. In actuality, babies are innocent and naive creatures who, as far as I can tell, are not even capable of wicked thoughts in the first place, never mind wicked actions. I understand too much about psychology and childhood development to know that it's absurd to think babies are capable of wickedness.

I believe we were all made in the image of God and as such we all have the potential to be good. As we lean and grow and we differentiate ourselves by the choices we make and how we live our lives.

Babies are born innocent and as they grow and develop into children and adults they can become good or bad, although most people lie on a continuum. It is not good to be self-centered because that implies we do not care about other people, but it is natural for a baby who gets all his needs met from his parents to be self-centered and that does not make the baby bad.

 

[Kenny]

However, it seems to me that you stated your opinion as if it were a fact rather than expressing it as a personal opinion.

You said, "Not really…. we are just sharing our perspective. No more “preaching and/or proselytizing” than anyone else."

LOL… Of course, you can just ask us and we will be happy to tell you whether it is factual or not.

What is the purpose of debate? Isn’t it to proselytize?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, but that does make humans fallen.

The Christian interpretation of Genesis, which I do not share.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is interesting to note that Jesus never said anything about humans being Fallen...
The entire belief is a Christian doctrine, it has nothing to do with Jesus.
Jesus was just an innocent bystander who was pressed into service in the minds of Christians.

Granted, Jesus did talk about sin, but NOT about any original sin as per Adam and Eve disobeying God.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I believe that anyone who is fallen bibilcally means that the person is spiritually degraded from the get go.

Degraded from what? Growing, evolving, maturing, gaining experience ... is an inherent characteristic of a life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Consider how antithetical that perspective is to humanism, which acknowledges the possibility of human excellence and sees man in terms of his potential.

That is exactly how the Baha'i Faith sees man, in terms of his potential for excellence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Our "Fall" only means we no longer have the protection of Paradise. Now we must look out for ourselves, the way I understand the scriptures.

Nor do we have the protection of Jesus, since we are all responsible for ourselves, whether we sin or not.

Christians believe that they are 'covered' by Jesus death on the cross so they just go on sinning and sinning.
As I recall, Jesus forgave sins but He said to go and sin no more.

 

[Spice]

It is terrible to believe that all of humanity fell from grace just because of Adam and Eve disobeyed God, but if Christians did not believe in that doctrine they could not also believe that Jesus was needed to save us by dying on the cross to atone for our sins. Can't have one doctrine without the other. See how that works? The entire basis of Christianity hinges on the Fall of man and the need for a Savior to atone for our sins.

That is indeed the apparent primary tenants of mainstream Christianity, but not 100% Christianity. There are a small number who read the scriptures with different "moral of the story" results.

I do consider Jesus as my savior. But not because he died on the cross to take upon himself my sins. I'm still responsible for myself and I will face judgment, or karma, or whatever one labels it, for if I'm going to accept the primary messages of scripture that Jesus himself believed, then I have to accept Deuteronomy 24:16: ‘Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.’ Jesus was a Jew and did not believe in blood atonement.

But because he lived to "conquer the world" right up to and including such a horrible death, and remained true to his belief of love and kindness, I can clearly say he saved me through hope and awe.

And I'll give Paul credit for assuring I heard the story, even if I think his words have caused much harm.

 

[Kathryn]

Degraded from what? Growing, evolving, maturing, gaining experience ... is an inherent characteristic of a life.

So is dying, We are dying the minute we are conceived or born.

 

[Kathryn]

Let me ask you something about your beliefs? Do you ever act based on any of them in regards to other humans. If yes, then you are hidding behind that it is only beliefs, because they have consequences for other humans.

I treat others the way I would want to be treated.

 

[freelight]

The Holy Bible has been the worlds best selling book, in every generation since the printing press was invented many centuries ago.

Many Historians have studied the 66 books of the Bible, and compared them to secular contemporaries, to see if they could find any contradiction or errors. Most of those who set out to find faults with the Bible, became devout Christians instead. Because they found no faults of contradictions.

It's no different today, many sceptics set out to debunk the Bible and end up becoming believers instead. The vast majority converted to Christianity after finding that all 66 books are reliable, historical documents.

The 66 books of the Bible were written by 36 unrelated authors from various parts of the world over a period of 2,500 years, yet none of the accounts contradict each other. But the main reason so many became believers is due to the 356 prophecies which were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ. God's Prophets foretold of His coming into the world thousands of years before He came.

There is a list in the link, showing every one of the 356 prophecies and their fulfilment. This is well worth a look, as it provides irrefutable evidence that the Bible is a reliable historical document. No other historical figure ever came close to changing the world forever as Jesus Christ did.

AccordingtotheScriptures.org :: 356 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Of course there are errors and contradictions in the Bible and other religious writings; -many books are pseudographical as well,.....while some is historical, plenty of mythology, heresay, metaphors, allegories abound....as in any religious book written by man, no matter if some parts of any book could be inspired,...thats up to the human authors and their openness to divine inspiration or lack thereof, as well as the readers of those texts to discern and determine. Many of the NT passages claiming OT attestation are not necessarily true or proof of Jesus messiahship, but engineered or retrograded to be read as such. Some passages are totally jerry-rigged by Paul even and twisted to fit his own 'gospel'. All is open to interpretation, translation variations and assumption

The Bible is not innerrant, perfect or infallible...no religious book is, but some may be more or less inspired or useful. I enjoy an elcectic path of religious studies, since 'God' cannot be put in a 'box', ever. That which is absolute, infinite, ultimate, omnipresent is everpresent in total, right here and now,.....as this very Consciousness that I AM, and that is 'God' - everything 'else' is a viewpoint, opinion, interpretation or translation of consciousness. 'God' is all there IS.


~*~*~

 

[Trailblazer]

I do consider Jesus as my savior. But not because he died on the cross to take upon himself my sins.

I also consider Jesus my savior.

The following quote explains how it was the teachings of Jesus that freed us from the chains of bondage to the material world, and that is how I believe Jesus saved us.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125

 

[Spice]

I also consider Jesus my savior.

The following quote explains how it was the teachings of Jesus that freed us from the chains of bondage to the material world, and that is how I believe Jesus saved us.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125

Am I understanding you correctly that you do not believe in the Fallen Man principle, but do believe in the blood atonement od the cross?

 

[Sargonski]

What are you trying to make the Bible say. I don't understand what your problem is with God ordering His Children to kill the pagans. Let me know what your problem with that is, a I can't see any valid objections

Deut 13:12-15

12 “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the Lord your God gives you to dwell in, saying, 13 Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods” ’—which you have not known— 14 then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword.

Charles ... The command is not to kill Pagans in general .. and the children .. babies and fetuses God orders to be slaughtered are not Pagans. You are misunderstanding the command of your God.

A Pagan believes in many Gods -- and every Israelite believes the Divine Pantheon -- and as such .. you think your God commanding to kill every Israelite ?! - But, that is not what your God has commanded Charles -- Your God commands those who worship those other God's be killed. The punishment is not for believing in other Gods .. the punishment is for worshiping other Gods. and Second .. not only are those who have committed this sin against God be killed .. but the children, babies and fetuses of those who have committed this sin .. these babies have not committed the sin .. have not worshiped other Gods ... or any God for that matter .. are also to be slaughered along with their Idolotrous parents.

For so many posts were you crying out and objecting to this reality due to lack of understanding but, now you have come to understand one of your God's commands, which is a step in the right direction, but, you have yet to tell us the name of this God that commands you to kill the child for the sin of the Idolotrous Parents .. so that we may know which other commands we must follow to be put right with this God.