Does Shari'a really call for executing homosexuals?

[A-ManESL]

This generalized, ignorant, hypocritical anti-Muslim trash talk is not helpful, especially from someone who follows a religion in which men are allowed to rape and abuse their wives.

What arrogance and trash! On what basis are you saying that the religion of following Jesus Christ(pbuh) allows men to rape their wives? Yes, what he is saying isnt helpful, but neither is your statement.

 

[Sahar]

Why would allowing people to love whom they wish disrupt your social order? As long as, as an Englishwoman once said, they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses.

Ok and this is what I am basically saying.

 

[Sahar]

In the "real world" the above statement is totally disrespectful. It's like saying Obama should change his name because it sounds too Arab. To find therapy for something that is inherent totally denies the person him/herself no respectable organization not even the APA (American Psychological Association-which I belong to) follows this. Homosexuality is not even a classified psychological/physiological disorder so why find therapy?

Disrespectful? How many times we say homosexual acts are sin and can constitute a crime. And now when I say there should be a therapy to those who want help is disrespectful. If it's disrespectful, I can't help.
There are a lot of things that have a biological etiological basis and are treated. So?

First off, confusion does play apart of ones life and for anyone to want to seek therapy for having homosexual tendencies either a) lives in an environment that does not respect the sexual orientation or b) is coerced into seeking therapy. Homosexuality is not even a "real" problem.

It's a problem to some.
Struggling Against Homosexuality, Finding Islam « Eye on ‘Gay Muslims’
Should we stand against his will and choice? Should we deprive him of the help he wanted to get?

You are comparing Apples and Oranges. Pedophilia is not only unlawful but its dangerous and harms the vulnerable which is the child. This is different from homosexuality. A pedophile is very inward when it comes to his/her thought process, and not only that, the fantasy of erotica towards a small child is ever consuming versus a homosexual where some rational thought process comes into play.

I know that it's harmful to children. Pedophilia is a sexual preference and has an innate basis yet there are attempts to find a therapy because we believe it's harmful and immoral. The biological "innate" factor wasn't an excuse for not providing a therapy for them. The same way I view homosexuality. It leads to harmful and immoral behavior.

Muslims cannot prove Homosexuality is immoral. Again you can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia. Let me remind you, pedophilia harms the "other" where is the harm in homosexuality? I asked you earlier to define morality for me.

I define morality according to Islam.

The Thread is about punishments of homosexuals, not homosexual sex. In fact its easier to get away with homosexual sex than public show of affection between same sex couples.

The penalty is concerned with the sex part, and this is the topic of the thread.

Why are you so focused on sex? I'm talking about being gay in public. Can two gay men walk side by side in public holding hands in a Muslim country which encorporates Shari'ah Law?

Holding hands is okay.

No. Homosexual sex or not homosexuality is forbidden period and regardless of the Madhab you follow, Muslims with that society will not allow gays to express their devotion in public...period....

Yes. They can express their devotion inside their homes.

answer this complex moral question: what kind of God who is called "Rabbil Alamin"-Lord of the Universe and who is the Creator of all that exist in this universe can call something that is an inherent feeling much like that of a man who desires a woman to be immoral? To me, God has to be beyond this......

To me, God test us with hardships, diseases and vain desires but we have a free will so that we can do our best to follow His path.

Listen, the summary: if anything has a biological basis for its development, it doesn't mean it should be allowed. For example, if biology plays a role is alcoholism, this doesn't mean we shouldn't treat it. If theft was found to have a biological basis, it doesn't mean it should be okay...etc. Now you will say alcoholism and theft are harmful. I say homosexuality leads to immoral and harmful behavior to those who are involved and to the structure of the society and we basically disagree on this and I am not going to embrace your views.
If the argument is that people who are in love and don't harm anyone is no one's business then it means there are other forms of relations should be allowed based on that argument. For example, a marriage between three or four people should be okay then. An incestuous relations should be okay then (with taking protective measures so that you don't tell me it's harmful to offspring)...etc. I expressed this thought in an old thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...nly-no-debate-gay-animals-10.html#post1941843

Yes, I do believe homosexuality is harmful, I do believe incest is harmful no matter what the situation is (and not because of the diseased off spring it might result in or the genetic harms only). If we accepted as a society that everything can be sexualized and this is absolutely normal, what we will see is a complete chaos. If we believed that it's acceptable and normal to sexualize our relationship with all human beings; same sex, brother and sister, sister and sister, father and daughter, mother and a son and a daughter, grandson and a grandparent, the number can increase and different mixes are possible, with dead people, with animals and with even inanimate things, if we accepted that at any moment the relationship can be sexualized, this will greatly negatively affect the meanings of friendship, brotherhood, parenthood, the family...etc such important meanings for the stability of the individual and the society as a whole.

That's why Islam put sex in a certain context. The only sex that Islam acknowledges is that between a man and a woman inside the frame of marriage.

This is what I have and I don't want to repeat my thoughts and arguments over and over.

 

[Sahar]

It applies only on Muslims, but of course non-Muslims shouldn't do it in public too because the court might imprison them for it because that might cause the same damage as if Muslims have done so. The difference would be in the type of punishment.

Regarding spying, Islam is not the religion of spying and doubts. It protects people privacy, and if it has been proven that someone has spied on another person, the spy should be punished.

O ye who believe! avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on each other, nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it. But fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most-Merciful. (Quran 49:12)

Even the King/President/Caliph himself is not allowed to do it.

It been mentioned that the second Caliph Omar bin Alkhatab was guarding the city at night along with another man. They suddenly heard what seemed to them as a party, so when they got closer they saw the house and they knew it belonged to whom. The man accompanying omar said those people always gather at this time to drink alcohol--alcohol not allowed in Islam--but Omar said, this is what Allah has forbidden us from doing. We can't spy on them, let's leave. This is what Islam teaches us.

The same with sodomy, it's like how the army in your country deal with homosexuals, "don't ask, don't tell".

I was just pointing out it's the law in many Muslim and non-Muslim countries, that homosexual acts are not tolerated, like sodomy, etc. The same with marijuana which the law forbid of using in the US. It's about the law. People think that many laws in many countries are stupid, but they are not forced to live there. They can move to any other country which does tolerate their behaviors.

Well said!

:clap

 

[Meow Mix]

People think that many laws in many countries are stupid, but they are not forced to live there. They can move to any other country which does tolerate their behaviors.

I'm always puzzled by this response to injustice: "If you don't like it, move."

If I had to look at my finances right now, I can assure you that even though I live in a 1st world country where even the poorest are richer than most of humanity, I can't afford to move to another country anytime soon.

That's one issue, another issue is that there's no guarantee of a job or a place to live once someone gets to another country.

Another issue is why should they have to abandon their family, friends, and livelihood just to enjoy some basic human rights like being able to love whom they will (so long as they're mature, consenting adults)?

 

[Meow Mix]

The same way I view homosexuality. It leads to harmful and immoral behavior.

What do you consider to be harmful about homosexuality? Also, are you saying it leads to more behavior that's immoral besides the homosexuality itself? (Of course I disagree homosexuality is immoral, but I'm going from your viewpoint for a moment here)

 

[gnomon]

Yeah, interesting.



I was just pointing out it's the law in many Muslim and non-Muslim countries, that homosexual acts are not tolerated, like sodomy, etc. The same with marijuana which the law forbid of using in the US. It's about the law. People think that many laws in many countries are stupid, but they are not forced to live there. They can move to any other country which does tolerate their behaviors.

No, they cannot.

 

[Maimonides]

Moral police is in charge of observing moral behavior on streets, not houses. Only on rare cases they are allowed to check houses, like in the case of prostitution, alcohol factories, etc.

But if Allah says "There is no compulsion" how can the moral police check moral behavior when all rational beings within that society ought to know Allah's commandments?

 

[Meow Mix]

But if Allah says "There is no compulsion" how can the moral police check moral behavior when all rational beings within that society ought to know Allah's commandments?

This is an interesting question that I'd also like to see perspectives on. If there is no compulsion in religion, what's with the jailing and killing for breaking taboos and such that aren't hurting anyone other than being broken taboos? Even if they're Muslims?

How does this work with apostasy being a religious crime (though I do understand some believe this only applies to those who leave and then plot against Islam)

 

[TashaN]

I'm always puzzled by this response to injustice: "If you don't like it, move."

If I had to look at my finances right now, I can assure you that even though I live in a 1st world country where even the poorest are richer than most of humanity, I can't afford to move to another country anytime soon.

That's one issue, another issue is that there's no guarantee of a job or a place to live once someone gets to another country.

Another issue is why should they have to abandon their family, friends, and livelihood just to enjoy some basic human rights like being able to love whom they will (so long as they're mature, consenting adults)?

Can you please define for me the word adult? Who is an adult? how old he/she supposed to be to be considered as an adult?

 

[TashaN]

But if Allah says "There is no compulsion" how can the moral police check moral behavior when all rational beings within that society ought to know Allah's commandments?

You are smarter than that, so please don't insult my intelligence.

 

[Meow Mix]

Can you please define for me the word adult? Who is an adult? how old he/she supposed to be to be considered as an adult?

That's really up to society but surely no earlier than a few years after puberty (cognitive research shows that puberty isn't the end of cognitive development but usually ~2 years after puberty).

 

[Meow Mix]

You are smarter than that, so please don't insult my intelligence.

Maybe I'm not smarter than that because I don't get it. How can there not be compulsion but at the same time be police who enforce taboos? I don't mean to insult your intelligence, I truly don't understand. Are states with religious police not following Shari'a correctly?

I get that people are saying that the religious laws don't apply to non-Muslims, and that's a great relief to me... it's also a relief to me that people can leave Islam if they wish without repurcussion. However, it still seems confusing to me that if there is no compulsion in religion, why would even those who are in the religion be subject to religious police?

 

[Maimonides]

You are smarter than that, so please don't insult my intelligence.

Actually that was a sincere question and most certainly its no disrespect to your intelligence..... I don't claim to be a scholar in Islam and if there is something I missed I'll re-read.

 

[Maimonides]

Maybe I'm not smarter than that because I don't get it. How can there not be compulsion but at the same time be police who enforce taboos? I don't mean to insult your intelligence, I truly don't understand. Are states with religious police not following Shari'a correctly?

I get that people are saying that the religious laws don't apply to non-Muslims, and that's a great relief to me... it's also a relief to me that people can leave Islam if they wish without repurcussion. However, it still seems confusing to me that if there is no compulsion in religion, why would even those who are in the religion be subject to religious police?

That comment was about me when he posted that statement meow mix....

 

[Meow Mix]

That comment was about me when he posted that statement meow mix....

I know. I was saying that if it's stupid not to automatically understand why it's a dumb question then I must be stupid because the answer isn't obvious to me.

 

[Maimonides]

Disrespectful? How many times we say homosexual acts are sin and can constitute a crime.

My response: I don't know. How many times? Again I understand the Muslim perspective, but again you only mentioned homosexual sex and not being homosexual in this particular society. In addition several Madhabs do not all agree on punishments.

And now when I say there should be a therapy to those who want help is disrespectful. If it's disrespectful, I can't help.
There are a lot of things that have a biological etiological basis and are treated. So?

My Response: It's disrespectful in the sense that if a gay man says he has felt homosexual tendencies since he was 6, then when come to him and say get therapy we are obviously discounting feelings that may be true and sincere. That is what Whites used to say to blacks when Africans in the 1600's "You Negroes are the cursed descendants of Ham." Again research has indicated a biological component so therapy may not be that easy

It's a problem to some.
Struggling Against Homosexuality, Finding Islam « Eye on ‘Gay Muslims’
Should we stand against his will and choice? Should we deprive him of the help he wanted to get?

My Response: The American Psychological Association is a better source since we psychologist focus on the emotional and psychological implications see:
Is sexual orientation a choice?

No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. Ref: Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

I know that it's harmful to children. Pedophilia is a sexual preference and has an innate basis yet there are attempts to find a therapy because we believe it's harmful and immoral.

My Response: Pedophilia is not a sexual preference. It is classified as a psychological/psychiatric disorder (See DSM V-Revised). In the following here is the classification:

Pedohebephilic Disorder
The work group is recommending this disorder be renamed from Pedophilia to Pedohebephilic Disorder.
A. Over a period of at least six months, one or both of the following, as manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors:
(1) recurrent and intense sexual arousal from prepubescent or pubescent children [5]
(2) equal or greater arousal from such children than from physically mature individuals [6]
In addition, to not spam the article also cites the remission process. You can see how therapy to this COMPULSORY behavior can be helped by seeing the following reference: Proposed Revision | APA DSM-5

As you can see, pedophilia is NOT a choice nor is it a "rational sexual preference."


The biological "innate" factor wasn't an excuse for not providing a therapy for them. The same way I view homosexuality. It leads to harmful and immoral behavior.

My Response: As Meow Mix has indicated and so will I, how is homosexuality immoral if it causes no physical or emotional harm?

I define morality according to Islam.

My Response: How does Islam define morality then?


The penalty is concerned with the sex part, and this is the topic of the thread.
Holding hands is okay.

My Response: No offense but the above title gives no indication for homosexual sex. If you look up it says "Does Shari'ah law really call for executing homosexuals?" this can be interpreted as homosexuals in public and private.



Yes. They can express their devotion inside their homes.

My response: Why can't they express their love in public as heterosexual couples do is my question?

To me, God test us with hardships, diseases and vain desires but we have a free will so that we can do our best to follow His path.

My Reponse: If homosexuality doesn't disrupt the social flow, how is this equitable to being disruptive.

Listen, the summary: if anything has a biological basis for its development, it doesn't mean it should be allowed. For example, if biology plays a role is alcoholism, this doesn't mean we shouldn't treat it. If theft was found to have a biological basis, it doesn't mean it should be okay...etc. Now you will say alcoholism and theft are harmful. I say homosexuality leads to immoral and harmful behavior to those who are involved and to the structure of the society and we basically disagree on this and I am not going to embrace your views.

My Response: I'm not asking you to. But I do believe you have a misguided view (and rather amateur one) on the physiological basis and psychological basis of sexual orientation. I am a psychologist and have a lot of training in examining people. I know this is internet and so its unverified, but my point is if in fact I am who I am and have training why wouldn't you consider at least the scientific point of view? By the way you cannot continue to compare apples and oranges by equating homosexuality with pedophilia or alcoholism. Both contribute harmful effects to the participant. The compulsion to consume alcohol leads to cerosis of the liver and inevitable death. Pedophilia leads to harmful psychological, emotional, and physical effects on the young child. Both are considered disorders. Homosexuality is not a classified disorder so again, why would you even equate the two? I have supplied to you with my references. The APA is a well established organization and many great doctors are members of that organization so even if you want to disregard my comments at least look at the explanation.


If the argument is that people who are in love and don't harm anyone is no one's business then it means there are other forms of relations should be allowed based on that argument. For example, a marriage between three or four people should be okay then. An incestuous relations should be okay then (with taking protective measures so that you don't tell me it's harmful to offspring)...etc. I expressed this thought in an old thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...nly-no-debate-gay-animals-10.html#post1941843


This is what I have and I don't want to repeat my thoughts and arguments over and over.

I'm not asking you to repeat anything however, although this is a disagreement I do believe you don't have enough knowledge on the psychological basis of the development of sexual orientation.

 

[Maimonides]

I know. I was saying that if it's stupid not to automatically understand why it's a dumb question then I must be stupid because the answer isn't obvious to me.

I guess we both stupid together then lol

 

[Autodidact]

What arrogance and trash! On what basis are you saying that the religion of following Jesus Christ(pbuh) allows men to rape their wives? Yes, what he is saying isnt helpful, but neither is your statement.

Well, certainly at least as much as the qur'an:

Ephesians 5:22 - 25* 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians 3:18 *
18. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
Romans 7:2
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
1 Peter 3:1 -3
1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands;

 

[Autodidact]

The same way I view homosexuality. It leads to harmful and immoral behavior.

What harmful and immoral behavior does homosexuality lead to?