Does it make sense for humans to judge God?

[halbhh]

Pointing at a word is not making a point. This is just lazy. You actually have to make the effort to articulate your argument.

Hopeful implies that she has a say. You are confused. Imagine your favorite female relative who is also likely a virgin. Her family and friends are slaughtered around her. She is kidnapped and taken to the homes of her family's killers. She is married to one of her kin's slaughterers without her consent. He has sex with her. Under what perverted Biblical delusion do you think that said sex is consensual?

You are so enamored in the idealism of your beliefs that you don't give a flying f^*& about how those beliefs would impact real people.

"Projecting", is quite normal -- universal -- but when we learn more about it, we can work to avoid doing it (and also have some big gains for ourselves!). Here's more about that:

Projection in Psychology: Definition, Defense Mechanism, Examples

Projecting happens every time people try to guess at the qualities of other people they know very little about.

It's a natural process of the human brain operating with limited information, but it's often rather faulty, of course, especially over the internet, where you know little to nothing at all about the people you are talking with using only text.

Ideally, as we age, we begin to realize we are fully human, having all the virtues and weaknesses and good/bad that all humans have. That is such a good insight! We can begin to own more of our own unconscious feelings (that we avoided long ago, at age 4 or 6, etc.) -- to gain your own emotions, without condemning yourself. The great benefit of self acceptance is your self esteem and empathy both increase, and you become more accepting of others, and easier to talk with.

 

[halbhh]

I do not care what those verses say, all I care about is whether God actually ordered those things.
But I will let you hash that out with the Christians, since I do not know the Bible well enough to have an opinion.

Well, best to ask people that know fully all of the books and can give accurate answers that don't rely on prejudicial extra ideas and prejudice against God and a refusal to admit that death of this body, which is universal to all, a 100% death rate of these bodies, isn't the final death, but only "sleep" from which all will awaken....

Put another way, I would not ask Rush Limbaugh to tell me much accurately about Obama. Instead Rush (and I listened almost 100 hours to him one summer long ago to learn how he operates) would tell filtered, partial information in a very prejudiced way with a lot of false accusations and extra characterizations that are only opinion and just ideological....

An anti-religious person will claim that destruction of cultures (such as the Flood, or the destruction of certain cities in Canaan, and so on) are only genocide, as if the death is final, and will typically refuse to admit or accept the content of the same collection of scriptures, in which Christ Himself goes to the dead and proclaims the gospel to them, giving them a chance to turn and convert and be saved, and other such more full information that will shoot down their preferred view.

 

[ppp]

"Projecting", is quite normal -- universal -- but when we learn more about it, we can work to avoid doing it (and also have some big gains for ourselves!). Here's more about that:

Projecting happens every time people try to guess at the qualities of other people they know very little about.

This is rather amusing coming from a person who is trying to guess at the qualities of someone they know very little about under the guise of psychoanalysis. You must have a huge eye to contain that many logs.

What you call "projection" is just empathy. As a rule, humans object to having their families slaughtered, being kidnapped by those killers, and being forced to marry one. Would you be okay with it? Most people would not. Maybe you are different in that regard.

 

[halbhh]

This is rather amusing coming from a person who is trying to guess at the qualities of someone they know very little about under the guise of psychoanalysis. You must have a huge eye to contain that many logs.

What you call "projection" is just empathy. As a rule, humans object to having their families slaughtered, being kidnapped by those killers, and being forced to marry one. Would you be okay with it? Most people would not. Maybe you are different in that regard.

Ah, you did the characterizing of me above, not me of you!

heh heh....

But, seriously, learning about your own being just like the people you make characterizations about....that's such a gain, I can say, from experience. It really is a long term gain of great value. I sincerely hope you have a great day, and I have nothing against you.

 

[ppp]

Ah, you did the characterizing of me above, not me of you!

You seem to have missed the point, so I will say it again.

What you call "projection" is just empathy. As a rule, humans object to having their families slaughtered, being kidnapped by those killers, and being forced to marry one. Would you be okay with it? Most people would not. Maybe you are different in that regard.

 

[halbhh]

You seem to have missed the point, so I will say it again.

What you call "projection" is just empathy. As a rule, humans object to having their families slaughtered, being kidnapped by those killers, and being forced to marry one. Would you be okay with it? Most people would not. Maybe you are different in that regard.

One could learn better what 'projection' actually is (as happens whenever anyone tries to characterize other people they barely know anything about especially!) by reading that article I linked for you!

If you learn what projection is and begin to better account for it, it will greatly help your accuracy in gauging things other people do and say, and help you to avoid characterizing them also! And that's only 2 of the gains. There are more.

 

[ppp]

One could learn better what 'projection' actually is (as happens whenever anyone tries to characterize other people they barely know anything about especially!) by reading that article I linked for you!

If you learn what projection is and begin to better account for it, it will greatly help your accuracy in gauging things other people do and say, and help you to avoid characterizing them also! And that's only 2 of the gains. There are more.

Avoid it as much as you want, but it is still a fact that as a rule, humans object to having their families slaughtered, being kidnapped by those killers, and being forced to marry one. Would you be okay with it? Most people would not. Maybe you are different in that regard.

 

[halbhh]

Some aid to help correct partial and prejudiced characterizations:

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
Deuteronomy 21 NIV

Of course this obviously isn't typically going to be rape as some try to paint it (without anything anywhere in the text to support that claim, though the Bible does report actual rapes in other places, and with consequences to those crimes....)

Typically in many nations throughout history, invading victors have married locals.

Marriage isn't rape typically, even if some wish they could paint it that way.

Notice in the Law for Israel, the woman from the defeated city can go free if she doesn't want marriage, and then has these rights --

Exodus 23:9 Do not oppress a foreign resident, since you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners; for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt.

Social welfare! --
Deuteronomy 26:12 When you have finished laying aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you are to give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat and be filled within your gates.

And love/friendship/acceptance:
33 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."
Leviticus 19 ESV

And full equality under the Law, no less!

Exodus 12:49 The same law shall apply to both the native and the foreigner who resides among you."
-----------

It's an interesting contrast to the false characterizations some try to paste into the text where they try to create an impression (out of nothing) that the the Israelites were generally raping the women.

An illustration of the attitude about rape that actually is in the texts is an instance where one female concubine was brutally raped in one instance, and when the Israelite tribe of Benjamin refused to hand over the rapist for justice, the rest of Israel went to war against that tribe, killing most of them!

 

[ppp]

Marriage isn't rape typically, even if some wish they could paint it that way.

But I wasn't painting marriage as typically being rape, now was I, halbhh? I spoke of a specific circumstance where a girls are forced to marry their captors after those captors kill their families under the orders of God and Moses. The fact that you cannot address that circumstance, but have to falsely claim that I am talking about a typical marriage is telling.

 

[halbhh]

But I wasn't painting marriage as typically being rape, now was I, halbhh? I spoke of a specific circumstance where a girls are forced to marry their captors after those captors kill their families under the orders of God and Moses. The fact that you cannot address that circumstance, but have to falsely claim that I am talking about a typical marriage is telling.

The idea that they were forced isn't anywhere in the text. Unless by 'forced' you mean only the exact same thing we have today: forced by economic need, to marry, as many are today. It's factually an added idea to suggest they were physically forced! It's not in the text, not anywhere.

Nor suggested.

I'm pointing out also that this added idea of being forced doesn't fit well either (so, it's not only an invented viewpoint, but also doesn't fit well, both) -- and we can see that best by reading fully through these books, where we learn much more context, but I have excerpted some verses and passages to help suggest this reality, for those that want to understand more.

Consider: if a person adheres to a theory that hasn't any support.....well, that's a belief. See? Is that really what you want to have -- merely a belief without support?

This reminds me of current politics, where a lot of assertions are made, and it turns out that if we look closer at details, there isn't anything to support the assertions.

We want to avoid merely believing without any evidence. Right?

 

[ppp]

The idea that they were forced isn't anywhere in the text.Unless by 'forced' you mean only the exact same thing we have today: forced by economic need, to marry, as many are today. It's factually an added idea to suggest they were physically forced! It's not in the text, not anywhere.

Is it your contention that those girls did not experience the normative range of human emotions at:

• being attacked by the Hebrews
• watching their families - including infants - being slaughter around them
• being taken by their families' killers back to the Hebrew encampments
• being married to the men who did the killing

Because that is certainly what you are communicating. I regard the characters in the story as human. Why dont you?

 

[halbhh]

I regard the characters in the story as human. Why dont you?

So, this is the level you are thinking at on this?...ok.

If is of interest at all, you might better learn the actual story by reading through the Book of Numbers, or better Exodus and Numbers together in combination (which can be done in just an hour or 2 if you skim the parts that merely list tribes and duties and such).

It's easier to talk about what actually happened according to the text than your ad lib elaborations here with added parts that are sometimes just merely wrong. For instance, we don't learn whether or not the virgins were separated from their surviving parents before those parents were sent to the same appointment with the afterlife we each and all will face -- one where the innocent children will live forever in bliss with God, and where those not yet having heard the gospel will get a chance to turn and be saved into eternal life also....

Also, if you are merely indirectly asking why people die unfairly -- why 100% of us are all slaughtered -- then why not ask that instead?

At this point it seems hard to discuss with you, since you keep making up stuff to add to the text and also now are assigning views to me that I don't have also.

 

[ppp]

So, this is the level you are thinking at on this?...ok.

If is of interest at all, you might better learn the actual story by reading through the Book of Numbers, or better Exodus a

No. If you have something cogent to say, then say it. I am not going to waste my time on your reading assignments if you cannot articulate your own position in your own words.

I regard the characters in the story as human. Why don't you?

 

[halbhh]

No. If you have something cogent to say, then say it. I am not going to waste my time on your reading assignments if you cannot articulate your own position in your own words.

I regard the characters in the story as human. Why don't you?

(if you are really asking, the answer is just below)

Now, would you yourself answer if I asked you some misleading premise question like: "Why don't you accept babies as human?"

Don't worry -- I won't ask such questions to anyone here, not ever.

I think we can do better than that level of discussion.

Not only are they human, but the scriptures say they are not dead, but 'asleep' or in 'prison' where they can turn and be redeemed.

All will awaken and many will live forever in bliss.

There's a broader question -- is the God that makes death just a mere transition to what is next, also fair?

On that broader question: Only a God (as in the New Testament) that does this below, and which is perfectly fitting the Old Testament text when read more carefully and in full --

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

(is this what you expected??)

8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Romans 2 NIV

 

[ppp]

Now, would you yourself answer if I asked you some misleading premise question like: "Why don't you accept babies as human?"

That wasn't the premise. That was the conclusion. I provided you with the premise, previously.
Is it your contention that those Midianite girls did not experience the normative range of human emotions at:

• being attacked by the an army
• watching their families - including infants - being slaughtered around them
• being taken by their families' killers back to the enemy encampments
• being married to the men who killed their families
• having sex with the men who killed their families.

Any human girl would not only be unwilling to consent, and unable to consent, but completely revolted by the notion of marrying or boning one of those men.

Don't worry -- I won't ask such questions to anyone here, not ever.

Then we're done.

 

[halbhh]

That wasn't the premise. That was the conclusion. I provided you with the premise, previously.
Is it your contention that those Midianite girls did not experience the normative range of human emotions at:

• being attacked by the an army
• watching their families - including infants - being slaughtered around them
• being taken by their families' killers back to the enemy encampments
• being married to the men who killed their families
• having sex with the men who killed their families.

Any human girl would not only be unwilling to consent, and unable to consent, but completely revolted by the notion of marrying or boning one of those men.



Then we're done.

Perhaps so!

You keep suggesting all the worst possible extra assumptions and pieces that are not anywhere in the text.

When you make every possible added assumption to paint the Israelites in the worst possible light -- generally rapists, when that's nowhere in the text, etc. who apparently by your claim were forced to watch people being killed instead of being separated from them, etc.. -- then it kinda seems...well, biased in a highly unrealistic way, at that point.

Any case, a lot of those people killed on that day, just like on every day in all of human history -- a lot of those people killed that day will live forever in bliss with God, while individuals that do wrongs like rape without total and complete repentance and change of heart so that they are entire different people in time will instead die the "second death" as scripture says.

So, you needn't worry about unchanged rapists getting eternal life. Not even a single 1 will. Not even one. Nor will murderers.

And neither will slanderers.

 

[ppp]

You keep suggesting all the worst possible extra assumptions and pieces that are not in the text -- kinda like people who try to claim that all Democrats are baby killers, etc. -- so there's no way to discuss, since I won't accept added/invented extra assumptions you add on the text that are not in it, no matter if you repeat them over and over.

I am saying that it is the only plausible interpretation. And that if you had a plausible alternative that you would have presented it.
Have you actually read Numbers? What do you think that the army of men did with their 32,000 virgin girls?
Pardon me. 16,000. The other half went to the priests.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am saying that it is the only plausible interpretation. And that if you had a plausible alternative that you would have presented it.
Have you actually read Numbers? What do you think that the army of men did with their 32,000 virgin girls?
Pardon me. 16,000. The other half went to the priests.

Numbers 31:11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses...
14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them... 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.​

What is halbhh trying to say? The people were part of the spoils and plunder, and if they weren't a virgin girl were killed? But since they were taken as "wives" it was not rape? Yeah, I could just hear that marriage proposal.

He gets down on one knee... "I know we got off to a rough start... I mean with me killing your Mom and Dad, sisters and brothers. In fact your older sister was pretty hot, but unfortunately I had to kill her since she wasn't a virgin. But, you... you're not bad lookin' yourself. I'd love take you in as my third wife. After fetching water, doing the laundry and cleaning the tent, you'll have fifteen minutes to pleasure me, then back to work you go. How does that sound? Will you do me the honor of being my third wife and virtual slave?" Like what was her options? Supposedly set free? Where was she supposed to go?

 

[halbhh]

Anyone that raped any of the women would be guilty before God and from scripture would be heading to the where God will "destroy body and soul" in the "lake of fire" -- the "second death", the "eternal punishment" -- unless they confess and repent of that deadly sin in a total way, so that they are entirely changed in their heart, and become a whole new person, the old person gone.

That's why Christ came for us, and even the dead of past times, so that we can be entirely changed, if we would repent and rely on Christ.

 

[halbhh]

Like what was her options? Supposedly set free? Where was she supposed to go?

This one seems a legit question, and while I answered on this already in post 436, it was kinda long, so I'll shorten parts and edit for clarity:

...she has a chance/choice whether to become a full fledged wife will all the rights of a wife, and while our modern sensibility would suggest never with a man she saw kill someone she knew, presumably with some other Israelite...but, if it doesn't work it's actually the Law she have these benefits and support -->

Freedom:
Exodus 23:9 Do not oppress a foreign resident, since you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners; for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt.

Support (food):
Deuteronomy 26:12 When you have finished laying aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you are to give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat and be filled within your gates.

Regard/acceptance/friendship:
33“ ‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
Leviticus 19 NIV

And full equality under the Law (!):
Exodus 12:49 The same law shall apply to both the native and the foreigner who resides among you."

@CG Didymus" (all from post 436; is it more clear now?)