Does God manufacture people to Hell?

[Hacker]

We're not done are we?

LOL Buttercup!

 

[Quiddity]

We're not done are we?

No, I was only saying. I'm on my way out so we can continue this tommorow.

 

[Hacker]

Thank you everyone for being civil and kind even if we disagree...:group:

Well that was very nice of you to say Victor!:angel2:

 

[cardero]

Victor writes: There is always room. The fact that you can ALWAYS oppose God's will shows that free will is there.

Buttercup writes: I do see the difference....but that is not unconditional love. Unconditional love has no conditions attached. It is free, no matter what. You dont' love your wife like that....only your children come close.

The way you describe God is of having conditional love.

I think that this is where we are having the problem. If you believe that your physical existence is a gift from God then as Robtex has pointed out on several threads, it is not much of a gift if you have to keep on checking in with God to see if we are using the gift according to His will. It removes the “free” part of your will and lends fear to the consequences which is detrimental to the “will” part.
For example, I can rob a bank anytime I want. Our state laws make it undeniably clear that if you get caught, you will be prosecuted. There are many criminals that are aware of these consequences but still exercise their free will to perpetrate such acts. Some have even gotten away with it. The reason that I do not rob banks is not that I cannot do it but that I cannot do it well and I cannot assure myself that I will get away with it and the consequence of sitting in jail with two guys who have their arms around me doesn’t appeal to me at the moment. Though I do understand why society implements these laws I really do not expect similar penalties or consequences from my GOD.

 

[robtex]

Taken from post# 59:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39057&page=6



Do you believe God creates people to go to Hell?

I do not. I believe God's omniscience respects free will. In essense, God considers every single possibility a person can chose and brings about the greater good for that situation. God only see's the possibilities, but cannot interfere with your free will.

Thoughts?

Here is where I formulate this idea.

beliefs of Christianty

1) God is omnipresent
2) God is omiscience (all knowing)
3) God is omnipotent (all powerful) ore even super-powerful will work
4) God makes souls
5) God permits hell to exist
6) 1/3 of the 5 billion plus of the world are christian
7) billions of people have expired in the last 2000 years who knew the Jesus story and were not christians

If you accpet all of these things to be true than you acknowledge that God makes souls to roast in hell. Here is why.

If God is 1-3 than he knows which souls that are brought into existance will roast and which will survive before they are born.

If God does # 4 he assumes reponsibly for the creation of the souls based on 1-3.

If God is # 3 he permits hell to exist (#5)

# 6 and #7 are statistically known to be true.

Now, what you have is a God who creates souls that he knows beforehand are going to make it to Heaven or are going to burn in hell.

This God by the definitions provided than makes the intentional decision to create souls he knows will burn in hell as opposed to creating only souls that will make it to heaven.

Therefore, any soul he creates that is going to burn in hell he did intentionally and with full knowledge he created a soul he intented to torture for all eternity.

It has nothing to do with choice or free will. In addition God chooses who he will revel himself to and who he will not. God chooses this NOT MAN. If God creates a soul he knows before hand will burn in hell (# 1-3), chooses not to revel himself to him, and condemns that soul to hell it is because and only because this is what God wants.

In addition, notice in the OT God just kills everyone who annoyes him. Not just them, but their neighbors, their unborn children and their livestock. He destroys entire cities, entire populations at a whim. Realize a God that can do this and again an omnipotent, omnipresent omniscience God who can do this created a paradigm where he could do this all by himself. The same God, I might add who can murder his own son and guilt-trip man for all time since for the death God invoked. If such a God is written in the book attributed to the word of God himself than such a God can by the illustration here create souls that he knows will burn in hell long before the souls were ever created by him.

thread-tagging: God's motive for invisablity:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27397&highlight=invisable

 

[Quiddity]

I think that this is where we are having the problem. If you believe that your physical existence is a gift from God then as Robtex has pointed out on several threads, it is not much of a gift if you have to keep on checking in with God to see if we are using the gift according to His will. It removes the “free” part of your will and lends fear to the consequences which is detrimental to the “will” part.
For example, I can rob a bank anytime I want. Our state laws make it undeniably clear that if you get caught, you will be prosecuted. There are many criminals that are aware of these consequences but still exercise their free will to perpetrate such acts. Some have even gotten away with it. The reason that I do not rob banks is not that I cannot do it but that I cannot do it well and I cannot assure myself that I will get away with it and the consequence of sitting in jail with two guys who have their arms around me doesn’t appeal to me at the moment.

So much for not doing it because it's the right thing to do...

Though I do understand why society implements these laws I really do not expect similar penalties or consequences from my GOD.

I guess we do differ. My relationship with God is certainly conditional.

 

[Quiddity]

It has nothing to do with choice or free will.

Rob, it seems you are caught up on some definitions that differ from mine. Free will and choice absolutely has everything to do with it.

God omiscience (in relation to individuals) simply means He can see all possibilities in that specific person. Which possibility the individual will actually pick is actually unknown to Him. Why? Because it's restricted to time, space, and free will. None of which He will violate. Not that he can't if he so wished to, but he would have to violate the laws that make up time, space and free will. God simply doesn't do things that are contradictory to His nature. So in this sense, He is limited.

 

[robtex]

Rob, it seems you are caught up on some definitions that differ from mine. Free will and choice absolutely has everything to do with it.

God omiscience (in relation to individuals) simply means He can see all possibilities in that specific person. Which possibility the individual will actually pick is actually unknown to Him. Why? Because it's restricted to time, space, and free will. None of which He will violate. Not that he can't if he so wished to, but he would have to violate the laws that make up time, space and free will. God simply doesn't do things that are contradictory to His nature. So in this sense, He is limited.

If you discount the idea that God is
1) omniscience
2) omnipotent
than the equation is no longer true. Matter of interpretation. I understand that most christians i meet feel God is omniscience and omnipotent.

 

[Quiddity]

If you discount the idea that God is
1) omniscience
2) omnipotent
than the equation is no longer true. Matter of interpretation. I understand that most christians i meet feel God is omniscience and omnipotent.

I'm not discounting them Rob, I'm defining them per the New Advent. It was development within my Church since it's existance. If anything the vast majority of Christians don't define as you do.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

 

[robtex]

I'm not discounting them Rob, I'm defining them per the New Advent. It was development within my Church since it's existance. If anything the vast majority of Christians don't define as you do.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

which parts do most of them reject in # 1-5?

 

[Quiddity]

which parts do most of them reject in # 1-5?

Under who's definitions? Yours or ours?

 

[cardero]

So much for not doing it because it's the right thing to do...

I guess we do differ. My relationship with God is certainly conditional.

So does that mean that if God does have a conditional relationship with humans and that we don't have the right to exercise free will, we are possible product fuel to keep the fiery furnace in hell burning?

 

[Quiddity]

So does that mean that if God does have a conditional relationship with humans and that we don't have the right to exercise free will, we are possible product fuel to keep the fiery furnace in hell burning?

I have no idea what you are asking here. Can you please re-phrase it please.

 

[cardero]

Victor writes: I'm totally not understanding why opposing God's will takes away your will.

Victor writes; There is always room. The fact that you can ALWAYS oppose God's will shows that free will is there.

Our relationship with God is conditional or Unconditional

I chose unconditional.
I believe you chose conditional.

If you believe that one’s relationship with God is conditional than that means that there is some type of expectation or will that this Supreme Being anticipates from this relationship.

If God says “thy will be done” it is no longer your will it is now the will of a God that you are doing.

Now, if you are living a will designated by another Being than the choices you have to decide become restricted as compared to someone who does not encourage a conditional relationship with God. It does not matter whether these choices are right or wrong but that they no longer become free or available.

Since you have outlined a conditional relationship with God you are now responsible to pleasing this entity. What happens if you do not satisfy this God’s will? In some religions there is a judgment, sentence and penalty to not fulfilling the will of a Supreme Being. Not only have you sacrificed your freedom of choice (read:will) but now if you do not abide by the choices that a Supreme Being has willed for you, it is most likely going to be very costly.

The questions I ask of you are:
Do you enjoy encouraging relationships where your freedom of choice is restricted, impeded or obstructed?

Do you enjoy encouraging relationships where trying to abide by the will of one entity could cost you your very existence?

Do we have the freedom of choice of entering (coming into) and exiting (leaving) a relationship with God freely without any consequences or penalties because we may not agree or cannot abide to the conditions He puts forth?