Does Capitalism Make Us Virtuous?

[Cuthberta]

I am inclined to believe that it does not, but there is a provocative new book:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/books/review/30holt.html

Bobos in Paradise
Review by JIM HOLT

Published: July 30, 2006
The heft, the air and the title of this book all promise a big thesis. But what the devil could that thesis be? At no point during my reading of the 500-plus pages — an experience by turns piquant, maddening, edifying and wearying — was I altogether sure. Sometimes the author appeared to be arguing that capitalism makes us virtuous. Sometimes she seemed to be saying that virtue is the most important ethical idea we have. And sometimes she more or less announced that Love Is Bigger Than Economics. Each of these is a potentially interesting claim. But where, amid the luxurious orgy of quotations, epigrams, pop-cultural and poetic allusions, charts, lists, etymologies, asseverations, innuendoes, zingers and brickbats, was the meticulous reasoning that might establish their truth? . . .

 

[finalfrogo]

If anything, (unabused) Communism is a more virtuous economy system.

 

[Ody]

An economic model doesn't create virtue, how we use it does.

 

[bigvindaloo]

I am inclined to believe that it does not, but there is a provocative new book:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/books/review/30holt.html

capitalism promotes creativity and innovation. Is that a virtue?

 

[Booko]

capitalism promotes creativity and innovation. Is that a virtue?

And without some checks, it promotes robber barons and a permanent underclass.

I would suggest that those are not virtues...

 

[Booko]

If anything, (unabused) Communism is a more virtuous economy system.

But it ignores human motivation. Why work harder or smarter if you don't see some personal return for it?

For this reason, an unabused Communism isn't as good at creating wealth and progress for a society, so people are not as well off materially as they might be otherwise.

 

[Sunstone]

Whatever else one wants to think of it, capitalism promotes a certain kind of honesty and fairness in dealing with ones fellow capitalists. That is, over 90% of all business contracts are verbal handshake agreements which are not formalized in writing. For that kind of system to work (and it does work, or the economy would come to a halt), the people involved have to be both honest about what they agreed to, and fair minded in how they interpret what they agreed to. So, capitalism does put a premium on this sort of fair mindedness and honesty.

 

[Sunstone]

If anything, (unabused) Communism is a more virtuous economy system.

The saying that Communisim ignores human nauture might be a cliche, but it is nevertheless true enough. That is, Communism more or less seems to assume that you can get humans to quit acting human. It's not the only idealism to do so, and like all other idealisms that have tried to do so, it has failed.

 

[Valjean]

It was my understanding that the highest average levels of morality were measured in Israeli kibbutzim. Kibbutzim are collectivist societies.

 

[Cuthberta]

Thank you all. I learned a lot from this discussion. I am a horribly lazy scholar and should be reading volumes and volumes of dry material and I find, happily, that events of the last century or so are kind of summed up on this page.

Now, if someone would just give me a 100-word comprehensive explanation of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, some of my ignorance would be even further diminished.

I suspect that McCloskey's book owes a lot to Weber but 500 pages and $32.50!!!! That's a lot of pages to read!

 

[JerryL]

I don't think you can "make" someone virtuious. If their behavior is "above-board" because of external stimuli, is that truely a virtue.

Whatever else one wants to think of it, capitalism promotes a certain kind of honesty and fairness in dealing with ones fellow capitalists. That is, over 90% of all business contracts are verbal handshake agreements which are not formalized in writing.

I would be very intereted in reviewing both your statistic and your statictical gather method. I suspect that your conclusion is erronious; but would need to look at the actual data to make an informed response.

 

[Booko]

Whatever else one wants to think of it, capitalism promotes a certain kind of honesty and fairness in dealing with ones fellow capitalists. That is, over 90% of all business contracts are verbal handshake agreements which are not formalized in writing.

I would be very intereted in reviewing both your statistic and your statictical gather method. I suspect that your conclusion is erronious; but would need to look at the actual data to make an informed response.

I don't know, but when I read the above, I was reminded of the dangers of a mere "handshake" these days, as we are about to take one of these supposedly "honest" people to court for not paying for the work we did. :149:

 

[!Fluffy!]

We live in an extremely small and isolated community, which makes a huge difference I guess. Barter is popular here, and business is always done with a handshake.

Also it's very comforting to know the person who cuts my hair will have to look at me at the store, in church etc.

 

[Booko]

We live in an extremely small and isolated community, which makes a huge difference I guess. Barter is popular here, and business is always done with a handshake.

Also it's very comforting to know the person who cuts my hair will have to look at me at the store, in church etc.

I live in Atlanta, metro area 5 million and still growing at a good clip.

I could see you one day in my neighborhood, and never see you again. And the dishonest know it.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I live in Atlanta, metro area 5 million and still growing at a good clip.

I could see you one day in my neighborhood, and never see you again. And the dishonest know it.

:yes: I hear that. We left metro Denver 12 yrs ago, couldn't be happier.

 

[Booko]

:yes: I hear that. We left metro Denver 12 yrs ago, couldn't be happier.

I'm sure your lungs are very happy! I'm waiting for the time when we can move somewhere more rural, or maybe even out of the country.

And we're soooo off topic....

<ahem> Yes...

Uh, I'm waiting to live in an area where runaway capitalism has not destroyed the quality of life for the people living there.

 

[JerryL]

We live in an extremely small and isolated community, which makes a huge difference I guess. Barter is popular here, and business is always done with a handshake.

But do you think that the US converting farther to socialism, or even communism, would change the way individuals behave in your small community? Barter existed before formal economies and has existed in every type of economy.

 

[logician]

Capitalism is based upon naked greed, and must be restrained or a few companies will monopolize the market, which is happening in the U.S. now.

 

[JerryL]

At least it's better than it was. WalMart has nothing on US.Steel or Standard Oil.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

I think of capitalism as the inevitable result of morality, liberty, and optimism. However, we all have different values and most people are idealists. Capitalism is not an ideal in any sense of the word. It fails too many people and it requires struggle, hard work, and personal responsibility. In an ideal world, life would be easy, simple, and fair. People who draw on idealistic moral philosophies will reject capitalism as materialistic and worldly, and possibly evil. For them, communism and socialism represent the kindness, the selflessness, the equality, and equity that they believe is indicative of the Moral Ideal. But for me, capitalism is as much a part of my religious belief as anything else. It is a philosophy, a worldview, and a way of living that springs directly from my values and character.