Does belief in the Flood indicate intellectual incapacity?

[outhouse]

If I throw a needle in a haystack and you cannot find it, this does not mean that the needle is not there, right?

Stop it.

You asked for proof, and I supplied you facts that do prove it never happened and even took the time to show you WHERE the mythology originated.

Supply a date for a the global flood, If the flood happened there would be a date it happened. Then I show you EVERY civilization on the planet at that exact date that was not wiped out.

We have factual written records from these time periods showing NO BREAK what so ever in ANY civilization. Egypt never EVER flooded around the pyramids, and their culture shows no breaks. These are facts you cannot deal with.

 

[Parsimony]

Would not the age they can go back depend on the age of the tress and the oldest trees are what...about 14,000 years old?

Are you talking about currently-living trees that are 14,000 years old?

 

[outhouse]

Are you talking about currently-living trees that are 14,000 years old?

clonal trees [group of] not individual.


Oldest tree so to speak is 5063.

 

[Looncall]

Are you talking about currently-living trees that are 14,000 years old?

What is more, weather can be inferred from the ring patterns. No global floods there either. Nor are there in other layer counting methods. Nope, no evidence anywhere.

The inanity of believing in the bible flood is laughable.

 

[outhouse]

What is more, weather can be inferred from the ring patterns. No global floods there either. Nor are there in other layer counting methods. Nope, no evidence anywhere.

The inanity of believing in the bible flood is laughable.

It just gives theist a black eye.

 

[Harold]

YES

They are using the same regional flood legends and mythology.

Since no proof was given. Only an opinion stated as fact I can only assume you missed my opinion on the subject which was stated as an opinion but with proof unlike your which could be confusing to someone as it was an opinion stated as fact.

Here is mine again and unless you can provide proof of your opinion then well...it is just an opinion and can not be taken as fact.

Okay…so we have similarities between these writings and the biblical accounts of Noah’s flood.


You’re saying the writers of the Bible copied the earlier writings.


There is a problem with this.



Even the critics who specialize in this style of ancient literature say there is no evidence of literary borrowing, in fact just the opposite. They propose that they were referring to the same story.


One paper by A. Heidel, A.R. Millard and D. Damrosch concludes this way:


Quote:
“Literary dependence cannot be demonstrated. Here, as in most of the parallels in the primeval history, it is considered more likely that Mesopotamian and biblical traditions are based on a common source. Some understand this common source to be a piece of more ancient literature, while others consider it the actual event.’ Hill & Walton, ‘A Survey of the Old Testament’, p. (2010).
There are pieces of this story that can be found in almost every culture, regardless of its location.


Take for example the story of Viracocha in South America.


Viracocha created the heavens and the earth. He then took large stones and breathed life into them. But they became giants, so he sent a flood to wipe them out. After the flood he breathed into smaller stones than the first time thereby creating smaller people, which were then scattered all over the world.


And in the bible, in Genesis 6 we see something similar. The Sons of God disobeyed God, they came to earth had sex with human women and produced giants. They almost destroyed the original human population so God sent the flood.


These stories are found around the world. They are in China, Europe, the Middle East, they are found in Native American traditions, in South America and many others.


In most of these stories we have 8 people on a boat.


In my humble opinion it seems obvious all these groups are talking about the same story. The problem is as each of these groups separated they began adding in details that were more important to them. I am sure that each culture believed they were passing on the true account of humanity to their children as the story was told to them.


It does make sense.



We have a boat and everyone died except for the ones on the boat. Each person passed the story on to their kids. This means the entire world had a similar story.


This proves something happened!


The question should not be, “Is it true?” The question should be, “Which story is closest to the truth?”


Now…I understand that our desire is to go with the story that was recorded first and on the surface that makes sense. But remember the people writing down the history weren’t there.



Other words, these are events that have been handed down from generation to generation and each story has been changed to focus on what the person handing down the story felt was the most important part of the story.


It doesn’t matter who recorded the story first, what matters is how well the story was preserved.


For example if you look at the Sumerian accounts they differ one from the other.


When they give the dimensions of the boat it sounds good until you draw it out. Drawn out the boat ends up being a giant cube.



However naval engineers have said the biblical account describes a near perfect example of a boat designed for stability in rough seas.


The Sumerians on the other hand constantly change the details of their stories to suit the different situations.


For example, in the temple of Enki the story is different from the same story in the same time period found in the temple of Innana. If the story is different in the same time period think of how much more it changes between the different time periods.



There are lots of inconsistencies and they seem to have been somewhat careless in their desire to hand down the correct story.


Let’s compare them to the Hebrew scribes, who are famous for taking their job seriously. They had rules for coping sacred text.



This became evident when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.


For example take a look at the Isaiah scroll.


It is one of the best preserved scrolls and the best way to prove or disprove their ability to preserve the scriptures. What you will find is that they did a flawless job.


I’ve been told stories of my own family history that only dates back one generation that differ depending on whose telling the story. I do not go with the story that was told first but rather the story that was told by the most reliable relative.


Some of my relatives seem to have very little interest in the accurate transmission of the details of their stories and the generations before us were no different.

Everyone having different parts of the same story does not disprove the story but in my humble opinion it does the opposite...it proves the story.

 

[Harold]

To your first question, all dates are given in terms of a + and - to allow for the fact that nothing is perfect, including dating techniques. So, let's say that a date of 14,000, to use your number, is determined, then the + and - is put in, but that number will depend on various factors. Let's say the number is 1000. Therefore, it would be written somewhat similar to this "14,000 + or - 1000", or another way it would be no younger than 13,000 b.p. and no older than 15,000 b.p. with at least a 90% chance of it falling within that range.

As far as your 2nd question is concerned, if there are trees that have been fossilized (or live) in that area and/or at that same strata, these can be overlapped by matching the width of rings from tree to tree. Also, sometimes river and/or glacial varves may be available for use.

As time has gone on, much more is known about the use and limitations of these techniques, so they generally are quite accurate nowadays.

Thanks for that answer. I really do appreciate someone answering with real information rather than an opinion stated as fact.

 

[Harold]

Are you talking about currently-living trees that are 14,000 years old?

Yes I was but I seem to have been wrong on the age and since they need the ring age to determine the carbon dating it seems even more unlikely that it can be a very reliable source.

The dating would then have to be even less then what I had originally said.

 

[Harold]

[FONT=&quot]What evidence are you asking for? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Wouldn’t we expect to find billions of fossilized plants and animals buried and in sand, mud, and lime that were deposited rapidly by water in rock layers all over the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Let’s keep in mind that unless something happens to disprove our current information (which happens a lot with science) I am willing to give science a dating accuracy of 14,000 years.

Anything more than that is just blah, blah, and blah so we can ignore those dates as being inaccurate.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is that fair enough?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That should be fair as none of us are looking for anything less than the truth and we can prove that science cannot be accurate past 14,000 years. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And the fact that something drastic happened along the way is evident by the unknown history of the pyramids. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We also have maps that show a partial charting of Antarctica, made during a period when the coast was free of ice. This coastal structure, now covered again by ice, was subsequently verified by satellite radar scanning. Ice core samples of the coastline have fixed the last ice-free period to between 11,000 B.C. and 4,000 B.C..[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So we have maps that date back into an area that were created before we could create those maps in that area. So…something happened to that technology.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If a pole shift happened at the same time as the flood then land could have been moved. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We have found a lot of cities underwater and keep in mind that we haven’t done much under water research when compared to the size, depth and scope of the ocean. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A couple underwater cities are:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Samabaj[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Cleopatra’s Palace[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Pavlopetri[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Atlit-Yam[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Port Royal[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Seahenge[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The Shore Temple[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Herakleion and Canopus[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Baiae[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The Pharos[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Dian Kingdom[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Eidum[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Olous[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Llys Helig[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Mulifanua Bay[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Pheia[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Atil[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Rungholt[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Phanagoria[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Saeftinghe[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I guess what I am trying to say is we haven’t found everything that has been lost yet and we are finding new information daily. It is a bit early to start making your mind up about what is and isn’t true. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Chilean highway project unearthed an amazing graveyard of fossilized whale skeletons. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ongoing excavations in the Gobi Desert has also tells a strange story. So far twenty-five dinosaurs have been discovered along with 200 skulls of mammals. There is no evidence of the several million year evolutionary gap or of the iridium boundary that is thought to delineate when the dinosaurs became extinct. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Mongolian Academy of Sciences and the American Museum of Natural History have excavated dinosaurs, lizards and small mammals in an unprecedented state of preservation. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Freshly exposed skeletons sometimes look more like the recent remains of a carcass than like an 80-million-year-old fossil. The strange thing is whatever made these dinosaurs become extinct seems to have been erased.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But then Gobi isn’t unique. In the United States you can find dinosaur graveyards in New Mexico, in the famous Bone Cabin Quarry of Wyoming, and at other sites. In Alberta, Canada there is a huge graveyard that stretches for hundreds of miles and holds innumerable dinosaur’s bones. In Agate Springs, Nebraska a fossil graveyard of around 9,000 animals was found buried. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The remains of hundreds of rhinos, three-toed horses, camels, giant wild boars, birds, plants, trees, sea shells and fish are mixed and intermingled in great confusion. In Tanzania, Belgium and Mongolia similar massive catastrophes captured vast populations and trapped them in a fossil graveyard of sediments and debris.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Ashley Beds is an enormous phosphate graveyard that contains mixed remains of man with land and sea animals, notably dinosaurs, pleisosaurs, whales, sharks, rhinos, horses, mastodons, mammoths, porpoises, elephants, deer, pigs, dogs, and sheep. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Remains of the hog, the horse and other animals of recent date, together with human bones mingled with the bones of the mastodon and extinct gigantic lizards have been found. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Another massive repository of fossils is found in South Africa. We can only speculate how many creatures are contained in this graveyard. One mind-boggling analysis estimates “The Karoo formation in South Africa alone contains fossil remains of about 800 billion animals.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If there was a pole shift and land was moved there could be much more going on that has yet to be discovered. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Keep in mind that very few fossils are forming today. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For instance what happens to a fish when it dies? It either floats to the surface where it decays and or is eaten by birds or sinks to the bottom where it decays and is eaten by other fish. Yet we find many fish fossils that are preserved with their scales and organs. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yet we find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of the Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The rocks also testify to something happening. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On every continent are found layers of sedimentary rocks over vast areas.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many of these sediment layers can be traced all the way across continents. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When geologists look closely at these rocks, they are able to find physical features that indicate they were moved quickly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For more than 50 years geologists have recognized that these strata belong to six megasequences (very thick, distinctive sequences of sedimentary rock layers) that can be traced right across North America.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be found across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The same chalk beds found in England can be traced to Northern Ireland, France, Western Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, southern Scandinavia, Europe, Turkey, Israel, Egypt, the Middle East, and even Kazakhstan.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Extensive chalk beds are also found in North America, through Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Nebraska and in Kansas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And what about the coal beds?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the northern hemisphere, the Upper Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) coal beds of the eastern and Midwest USA are the same coal beds, with the same plant fossils, as those in Britain and Europe.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being moved in days.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any “missing” millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon—the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So…when you say there is no proof of a worldwide flood I am a bit confused by what you mean. [/FONT]

 

[Harold]

Exactly.


It is nothing but examples of intelectual incapacity.


They have to hypocriticaly trash credible science, yet whne they go to a hospital for any medical care, they beg for that same science to save their lives. They beg for evolutionary science to come up with the cure that gives them more time with their loving families

A couple problem with this.

1. I do not trash science as I believe that it is science that proves God's existence. However, I do believe that both science and the bible have to be looked at when something isn't lining up correctly and not just on or the other.

In order to do that I have to understand how the science is coming to it's conclusion and how sound it is.

2. God heals. Something is missing in our understanding or in what we are supposed to be doing but it isn't God.

The bible has been changed and text has been removed to the point that it is hard to understand the message. But God has allowed it to be like that for a reason and it is our job to figure it out.

IMHO

“A scientific discovery is also a religious discovery. There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar, and for his work which supported the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe.
.
“The more I study science, the more I believe in God.”
–Albert Einstein
(The Wall Street Journal, Dec 24, 1997, article by Jim Holt, “Science Resurrects God.&#8221
.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
(From E. Salaman, “A Talk With Einstein,” The Listener 54 (1955), pp. 370-371, quoted in Jammer, p. 123).
.

 

[outhouse]

1. I do not trash science .

Are you sure about this?

Anything more than that is just blah, blah, and blah so we can ignore those dates as being inaccurate.

 

[outhouse]

Since no proof was given. Only an opinion stated as fact .

Really you call this opinion ???


This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[outhouse]

Is that fair enough?

No.

It is a severe appeal to ignorance.

Modern dataing methods are very accurate, and not up for debate by YEC due to theistic bias, in any way shape or form.

 

[Harold]

There is something you do not understand. Israelites did not exist before 1200 BC. Not one of the people mentioned in text existed prior to 1200 BC.

Not one has any historicity what so ever.

http://davelivingston.com/davelivingston/articles/Redating the Exodus.pdf

I guess I can post links now. :yes:

 

[Harold]

Are you sure about this?

You can not take something that does not work and claim it to be science if it has been proven incorrect.

 

[outhouse]

http://davelivingston.com/davelivingston/articles/Redating the Exodus.pdf

I guess I can post links now. :yes:

Biased apologetics are not credible or accepted by any real historian.


Try Israel Finkelstein or William Dever. Both have credibility.

 

[outhouse]

You can not take something that does not work and claim it to be science if it has been proven incorrect.

Dating has not been proven incorrect.


YEC has no leg to stand on.

Your not accepting these facts posted by the worlds scientific communities.

This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[Harold]

Really you call this opinion ???


This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.

It does not prove anything as I have already said the earth was here long before we got here. All I said was that the dating method is not very accurate and I could post all the times science has been wrong as well as why I question the dating of the earth but how does that prove that the flood was copied from another group?

•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.

Awesome and this proves the flood was copied from another group how?

•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.

And we got our soul from where? And how does this proves the flood was copied from another group?

•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

And how does this proves the flood was copied from another group?

So...you saying the flood is a myth and my saying that is only your opinion still holds true.

I believe in reincarnation as does the bible and I believe we have been evolving over the centuries. However I do not believe it started with nothing blowing up nor do I believe that God wasn't involved in the creation or that he no longer plays a roll in what is happening now.

But your saying the flood is a myth is only your opinion and nothing you posted changes that.

 

[outhouse]

the dating method was flowed

.

It is not flowed.

It isnt even flawed.

 

[outhouse]

And we got our soul from where?

.

There is no such thing as a soul.

It is not proven to exist.


As we understand it, it is mythology based on the concept we know as consciousness.

That is something ancient primitive men knew nothing about.