Documentary: Islam in Germany

[AsianActivist]

This is a documentary from the left-leaning ZDF station in Germany. Very soberting.

It's sad when the German teacher is horrified when she hears that for some people what Dad says about his daughter not being able to go out is more important that what the constitution says.

The expression on the daughter's face says a lot too. Liberal values won't survive in Germany if you allow in people who are willing to use force against them inside their families and communities.

 

[Sunstone]

Liberal values won't survive in Germany if the Germans refuse to socially, economically, and politically assimilate the people they let in.

 

[DawudTalut]

People slowly evaluate their previous views when in other lands. The faith with base stays, rest evaporates.

 

[SomeRandom]

Liberal values won't survive in Germany if the Germans refuse to socially, economically, and politically assimilate the people they let in.

If one lives in a country for like 20 years and still disregards it's constitution, I sincerely doubt one would give a **** about actually assimilating properly to begin with.

I can't comment on German Liberal Values or how it treats it's immigrants. But assimilation is a two way street. You can't just expect the Government to cater to you. You make a damned effort. I'd understand people being tentative after relocating due to some atrocity they experienced or witnessed. But other than that, you're living in that country. The least you could do is build some bridges with people. Or I don't know, try to befriend multi lingual people who can teach you the language and introduce you to people. Which isn't actually that hard in many places.

 

[Sunstone]

If one lives in a country for like 20 years and still disregards it's constitution, I sincerely doubt one would give a **** about actually assimilating properly to begin with.

I can't comment on German Liberal Values or how it treats it's immigrants. But assimilation is a two way street. You can't just expect the Government to cater to you. You make a damned effort. I'd understand people being tentative after relocating due to some atrocity they experienced or witnessed. But other than that, you're living in that country. The least you could do is build some bridges with people. Or I don't know, try to befriend multi lingual people who can teach you the language and introduce you to people. Which isn't actually that hard in many places.

You really need to educate yourself on the dynamics of assimilation. A good start for you would to be to read Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America.

 

[SomeRandom]

You really need to educate yourself on the dynamics of assimilation. A good start for you would to be to read Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America.

Educate myself on assimilation? I'm the first generation born in my country to immigrant parents fleeing from an unstable country. Well it was unstable back then. I have seen first hand assimilation. I grew up in two communities. I have seen how only division created by the immigrants themselves cause problems not only for themselves but both communities. My friends are even refugees. Don't talk to me about assimilation. Half my family and the vast majority of my family friends learned to assimilate.


How about you educate yourself about traversing two cultures for your entire life and see what it's really like on the inside, sir.

 

[Sunstone]

Educate myself on assimilation? I'm the first generation born in my country to immigrant parents fleeing from an unstable country. Well it was unstable back then. I have seen first hand assimilation. I grew up in two communities. I have seen how only division created by the immigrants themselves cause problems not only for themselves but both communities. My friends are even refugees. Don't talk to me about assimilation. Half my family and the vast majority of my family friends learned to assimilate.


How about you educate yourself about traversing two cultures for your entire life and see what it's really like on the inside, sir.

Your personal experiences, while no doubt valuable as a great source of pride for you, surely pale in comparison to comparative studies of many different immigrate groups. But of course, if you can't accept that, you can't learn.

 

[AsianActivist]

Half my family and the vast majority of my family friends learned to assimilate.

Anecdotes are not the same as evidence.

Multiple anecdotes are not the same as evidence, either.

 

[SomeRandom]

Your personal experiences, while no doubt valuable as a great source of pride for you, surely pale in comparison to comparative studies of many different immigrate groups. But of course, if you can't accept that, you can't learn.

Learn what? That assimilation takes two to tango? That's not experience, that's common goddamned sense. Heaven forbid we hold people accountable for their own actions.

If you come into a country, yes obviously efforts should be made to help assimilation. But if the party ignores those efforts the host country isn't entirely to blame. You can lead a horse to water, right?

Most immigrants are peaceful law abiding people trying to live their lives. But there's an element there that is legitimately dismissive of actually assimilating properly. From all cultures. That's just reality. Do your studies propose we allow them to go unchallenged? What if they're participating in something like child marriages?

The dynamics vary a great deal, I'll give you that. But to simply shift all the responsibility onto the host country is only addressing some of the issues
Surely rational people like ourselves don't need studies to tell them that, right?

 

[SomeRandom]

Anecdotes are not the same as evidence.

Multiple anecdotes are not the same as evidence, either.

Of course not. It can be a bit of an affront to tell someone to "educate themselves" on immigration when that someone is literally living in an immigrant family though. It's nice to pontificate about issues with academia.
A little bit cold by its nature, but nice nonetheless.

In immigrant communities, especially from kids, you are suddenly faced with issues that are not easy to be pinpointed exactly by scientists. And when one dares to even suggest that perhaps some things take effort on the part of both parties, all of a sudden you're not "educated" about the dynamics that you have literally lived and breathed for your entire life. I respect science both hard and soft. But some things are just a bit more messy than Science likes to admit. If you get what I'm trying to say?

 

[Sunstone]

Learn what? That assimilation takes two to tango? That's not experience, that's common goddamned sense. Heaven forbid we hold people accountable for their own actions.

If you come into a country, yes obviously efforts should be made to help assimilation. But if the party ignores those efforts the host country isn't entirely to blame. You can lead a horse to water, right?

Most immigrants are peaceful law abiding people trying to live their lives. But there's an element there that is legitimately dismissive of actually assimilating properly. From all cultures. That's just reality. Do your studies propose we allow them to go unchallenged? What if they're participating in something like child marriages?

The dynamics vary a great deal, I'll give you that. But to simply shift all the responsibility onto the host country is only addressing some of the issues
Surely rational people like ourselves don't need studies to tell them that, right?

You know one reason I don't think you're as well informed on this subject as you yourself believe you to be is because your characterization of my own position on the subject is laughably inaccurate. You didn't really even bother to understand my position before attacking what you thought it was. How can I believe you've evaluated your own experiences with any more justice than that?

 

[SomeRandom]

You know one reason I don't think you're as well informed on this subject as you yourself believe you to be is because you characterization of my own position on the subject is laughably inaccurate. You didn't really even bother to understand my position before attacking what you thought it was. How can I believe you've weighed your own experiences with any more justice than that?

I apologise if I said anything to indicate your position was laughable. That was not my intention. My odd half sarcastic sense of humour doesn't translate well on forums.
I'm just saying there's more to the dynamics of assimilation than just the question of accommodating the immigrants.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm just saying there's more to the dynamics of assimilation than just the question of accommodating the immigrants.

Well, I actually agree with you on that. However, Germany (along with most other European countries) has a reputation of making immigrants and their descendants feel like second class citizens even after generations in the country. The US, which doesn't always get things right, has apparently got immigration right. We provide -- or at least we used to until recently -- paths to full economic, social, and political integration into our society. Of course, people have to work hard to achieve that, but the option has traditionally been made available to them here. I hear it's not the same in most of Europe. Perhaps that has something to do with European countries being largely based on ethnic groups. But whatever the cause, this is one area that Europeans could probably learn a thing or two from Americans, just as there are areas Americans could learn from Europeans.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well, I actually agree with you on that. However, Germany (along with most other European countries) has a reputation of making immigrants and their descendants feel like second class citizens even after generations in the country. The US, which doesn't always get things right, has apparently got immigration right. We provide -- or at least we used to until recently -- paths to full economic, social, and political integration into our society. Of course, people have to work hard to achieve that, but the option has traditionally been made available to them here. I hear it's not the same in most of Europe. Perhaps that has something to do with European countries being largely based on ethnic groups. But whatever the cause, this is one area that Europeans could probably learn a thing or two from Americans, just as there are areas Americans could learn from Europeans.

Oh well i don't really know Germany's specific ways it helps (or doesn't help) it's immigrant population. Nor do I know America's situation either.
Australia does seem to offer much in the way of assimilation options. Well some places better than others.

I guess we're a bit more isolated so our issues are probably a bit more "odd."

 

[Sunstone]

Oh well i don't really know Germany's specific ways it helps (or doesn't help) it's immigrant population. Nor do I know America's situation either. Perhaps that's why there was such a miscommunication before?

Most likely. I think we were working from too different sets of assumptions, so to speak, which made things ripe for miscommunication. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[SomeRandom]

Most likely. I think we were working from too different sets of assumptions, so to speak, which made things ripe for miscommunication. Thank you for your understanding.

Yes I think this is true.
I'm glad we were able to come to an understanding.

 

[Flankerl]

Oh yeah that report is fun.
It also aired in the middle of the night so that no one could watch it but the ZDF could claim that they had aired it.

Such a funny country.

 

[AsianActivist]

Oh yeah that report is fun.
It also aired in the middle of the night so that no one could watch it but the ZDF could claim that they had aired it.

Such a funny country.

Really disappointing how PC Germany has become with regards to Islam. Disappointing because any honest student of history can tell you last time that happened, it was not good for Germany or the world: