Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Kathryn]

If you put a "prayer hole" in the schedule - effectively decided that I have to wait for you and your friends to finish praying before we can get on with why we're all there - then you have not left me out of it.

You say tomAY to, I say to MAH to - let's call the whole thing off.

 

[Kathryn]

Now if you'll all excuse me, I absolutely must get off my arse and go work in the yard!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, with that mindset
the govt. may as well be God.

Your govt. makes ALL of your "events" possible.
Even your very life.

Sound familiar?

Sure... but there are still subtle differences; for instance, I don't have the problem of not being able to demonstrate that my country exists.

In the case of a display of patriotism at an event, the facts of the matter are agreed to by pretty well everyone; the difference of opinion comes from a value judgement. In the case of a display of religiosity at an event, neither the values nor the facts are agreed to.

 

[Thief]

Sure... but there are still subtle differences; for instance, I don't have the problem of not being able to demonstrate that my country exists.

In the case of a display of patriotism at an event, the facts of the matter are agreed to by pretty well everyone; the difference of opinion comes from a value judgement. In the case of a display of religiosity at an event, neither the values nor the facts are agreed to.

I would not have used the example of patriotism.
Nowadays, there are agendas of all kinds, and the banner is flown by so many.

Public displays of faith are running into the same gauntlet.
Each to his own faith...and his own faith first.

This late in this thread...maybe someone said so and I missed it.

Censoring....putting your fellowman to silence....
will stymie and perhaps dismantle any practice or movement.
That might not be a good thing.

On the other hand, that movement might go underground.
Without social and public critique, silenced efforts become secretive.

I think it would be better, if the next guy was free to express himself at will.

Then...I would know at all times what he really thinks.
And if he should have an agenda, it won't be a surprise.

Public displays can be dealt with.....
if we as a public can arrive at tolerance and common ground.
That would be the hard part.

 

[Vile Atheist]

To clarify my position, I wouldn't be offended if a moment was set aside for personal reflection/prayer/whatever you want. I would be completely apathetic to it. I wouldn't care at all. I think it's unnecessary, sure, but it wouldn't cause me offense. Even if someone got up and did a Muslim or a Christian prayer or whatever. I probably wouldn't like being subjected to it (depending on the setting and type of event), but I still wouldn't be offended. In the case of the latter, there are potential legal and ethical issues of preaching to a crowd of which many may not want to listen. In the case of the former, it's benign, but I still view it as unnecessary.

The second part - the argument that all the little traditions and other rituals that take place at particular events (everyone keeps going back to the graduation ceremony) are unnecessary too is moot. If diplomas were just mailed out to the recipients, it wouldn't be an event at all. The purpose of a grad ceremony is to honour the graduates, not to pray. It still doesn't change the fact you don't -need- to pray before an event. And if you did "need" to pray before the event, the whole event doesn't need to stop for whatever period of time to accomodate you. I don't see why if you want to pray and reflect you can't just do it yourself and it has to be a group effort. That's why I see it as completely unnecessary.

 

[Kathryn]

Graduation ceremonies are full of all sorts of traditions, including moments of silence and reflection, and sometimes student prayers. Prayer or moments of reflection are a traditional part of MANY solemn occasions and rites of passage. I know this may sound bizarre to some people, but a huge chunk of the population feels that these traditions are important - and a moment of silence is a huge compromise to them.

The rigidity of not even being open to a moment of silence to REPLACE a tradition that is very important to some people is extremely counter productive and creates a situation where people will dig their heels in harder.

In other words, the lack of a willingness to compromise seems unnecessarily inflammatory, when emotions on both sides of the issue run high.

Patience, tolerance, mutual respect, kindness, generosity. A big dose of each would be very beneficial in such situations.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Graduation ceremonies are full of all sorts of traditions, including moments of silence and reflection, and sometimes student prayers. Prayer or moments of reflection are a traditional part of MANY solemn occasions and rites of passage. I know this may sound bizarre to some people, but a huge chunk of the population feels that these traditions are important - and a moment of silence is a huge compromise to them.

The rigidity of not even being open to a moment of silence to REPLACE a tradition that is very important to some people is extremely counter productive and creates a situation where people will dig their heels in harder.

In other words, the lack of a willingness to compromise seems unnecessarily inflammatory, when emotions on both sides of the issue run high.

Patience, tolerance, mutual respect, kindness, generosity. A big dose of each would be very beneficial in such situations.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but many of those traditions you're referring to were born in a time when being openly atheistic, secular, of a different religion, or even just the wrong brand of Christianity, was taboo and in some societies might even get you killed. Obviously I'm speaking in a context of North America and Europe.

There are many societies like that today still. If I went to Somalia or Saudi Arabia and said openly I didn't believe in God, I'm sure I would have a few AK-47s up my rear before I could say "Hosannah". The biggest progress of our society was when we started to have greater embraces of secularism. Nobody is oppressed. Religions/religious people don't need to be excluded. No minority in the country is forced to be subjected to the rituals and customs of a different group if they don't want to be.

Naturally, some Christians are against it because they feel since they are (for now, at least) in the majority, their religion and customs should be thrusted upon everyone else, whether or not other people want to be subjected to it. The beauty of secularism is that nobody needs to be forced onto anything.

Indeed, in the context Canadian society, I was forced by my parents to attend Catholic schools and take part in Catholic ceremonies and masses. I was a Catholic growing up because they told me I was Catholic and that's all I was taught, but when I was finally given an opportunity to think for myself, I found it very difficult to openly express my atheism because everyone around me was Catholic and regularly expressed disapproval and even hatred towards atheists. If I questioned Catholicism too much, I would face consequences. I don't want my children to grow up in a society like that.

Another side of the coin, is that speaking from American and Canadian societies, how many ceremonies and events open up with a Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu prayer? They are almost always Christian prayers. That's a result of demographics, but also culture and history. But why continue culture and historical practices when it excludes others? I'm not offended by anyone else praying to whomever they wish, I just don't think anyone else should be subjected to it. You don't need to pray at a ceremony that has a purpose of honouring graduates.

I'm open to a moment of silence - I think it's an excellent first-step. I just don't see why prayer needs to be a group effort and that everything has to stop to accomodate it. I don't understand why if you're a Christian or whatever religion you wish, you simply can't just fold your hands, bow your head, and mutter your prayers to God to yourself. I still view it as totally unnecessary.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Another side of the coin, is that speaking from American and Canadian societies, how many ceremonies and events open up with a Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu prayer? They are almost always Christian prayers. That's a result of demographics, but also culture and history. But why continue culture and historical practices when it excludes others? I'm not offended by anyone else praying to whomever they wish, I just don't think anyone else should be subjected to it. You don't need to pray at a ceremony that has a purpose of honouring graduates.

I'm open to a moment of silence - I think it's an excellent first-step. I just don't see why prayer needs to be a group effort and that everything has to stop to accomodate it. I don't understand why if you're a Christian or whatever religion you wish, you simply can't just fold your hands, bow your head, and mutter your prayers to God to yourself. I still view it as totally unnecessary.

In addition to this, in the Christian Bible Christians are instructed not to make a big show of their "righteousness" by praying loudly in public places. They are told that prayer is something to be done by oneself in private, so prayer at public events and/or in schools should be a non-issue for Christians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In addition to this, in the Christian Bible Christians are instructed not to make a big show of their "righteousness" by praying loudly in public places. They are told that prayer is something to be done by oneself in private, so prayer at public events and/or in schools should be a non-issue for Christians.

I've thought about it, and if I ever had the opportunity to give an invocation at a public event, it would be a Bible reading: Matthew 6:5-6.

 

[Kathryn]

Another side of the coin, is that speaking from American and Canadian societies, how many ceremonies and events open up with a Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu prayer? They are almost always Christian prayers. That's a result of demographics, but also culture and history. But why continue culture and historical practices when it excludes others? I'm not offended by anyone else praying to whomever they wish, I just don't think anyone else should be subjected to it. You don't need to pray at a ceremony that has a purpose of honouring graduates.

Interesting that you would say this. As I stated earlier, the invocation given at the graduation I attended this weekend was an Islamic formal prayer given by one of the Muslim honor students. There was absolutely no dissention that I am aware of, and the audience was respectful and attentive.

And this, right in the middle of the American South and the Bible Belt. Say it ain't so!

 

[waitasec]

Interesting that you would say this. As I stated earlier, the invocation given at the graduation I attended this weekend was an Islamic formal prayer given by one of the Muslim honor students. There was absolutely no dissention that I am aware of, and the audience was respectful and attentive.

And this, right in the middle of the American South and the Bible Belt. Say it ain't so!

so surely kathyrn you recognize this isn't the norm, otherwise you wouldn't mention this happened in the south...the most racists part of our country.

in los angeles this is a norm....nothing to talk about...i'm not impressed actually.

so why don't you respond to defender of justice's post, instead of throwing out ad hominems.

 

[Kathryn]

so surely kathyrn you recognize this isn't the norm, otherwise you wouldn't mention this happened in the south...the most racists part of our country.

in los angeles this is a norm....nothing to talk about...i'm not impressed actually.

so why don't you respond to defender of justice's post, instead of throwing out ad hominems.

Sigh -here we go again. Seems like I'm always having to repeat myself with you, waitasec.

My response WAS a response to defender's post - this portion in particular (which I had clipped as the quote I was responding to - but I'll REPEAT MYSELF again):

Another side of the coin, is that speaking from American and Canadian societies, how many ceremonies and events open up with a Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu prayer? They are almost always Christian prayers.

To this, I responded with the recent example of a Muslim invocation at a small town East Texas graduation ceremony, along with the notation that the crowd was very polite, receptive, and calm about the whole thing.

I mentioned that this occurred in the south, not because it is UNUSUAL (I have no idea whether it is or not, because I attend graduation ceremonies as seldom as humanly possible, since they are so incredibly boring), but simply because it pertained directly to Defender's post.

But, as usual, you add a twist and your own agenda to what I've said. Don't worry about it - I'm very used to it by now.

By the way, I've lived and worked all over the US - I don't believe that the American South is "the most racists" part of our country, and I doubt seriously that you could provide any credible data to support your biased claim. From what I can tell, prejudice comes in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and agendas and varies greatly between individuals.

Most of us - you and I included - have prejudices we can't even see because we're focusing on the splinter in someone else's eye when we should be focused on the log in our own eye.

So in Los Angeles, muslim prayers at graduation are the norm? How did you come across this information? Please share your source.

For the record, I am not trying to impress you. Life's too short.

 

[elmarna]

if the beliefs are truly of importance then acting upon the words in stead of speaking them would be in a person who holds there beliefs to heart. merely speaking them[for most is so you can consider them just as they are considering saying them] those are people who find that method more wise then the ones who in response act upon it

 

[EverChanging]

I enjoy asking about all of the interesting implications of their theology. For instance, when the Mormons told me that same-sex marriage is banned in the Mormon church, I asked if intersexed people could be admitted to marriage. One of the guys stared at me like I'd fallen out of a tree, and the other replied with a brief and to the point "No."

It's funny how uncomfortable they get sometimes.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Interesting that you would say this. As I stated earlier, the invocation given at the graduation I attended this weekend was an Islamic formal prayer given by one of the Muslim honor students. There was absolutely no dissention that I am aware of, and the audience was respectful and attentive.

And this, right in the middle of the American South and the Bible Belt. Say it ain't so!

But as you also stated earlier, it was an exception to the rule. The impression I got from that post was that this is not a normal occurance. It's certainly not a normal occurance in my neck of the woods here in Northern Ontario (we have about...six Muslims here?). I can speak from my own experience here that events, if they are opened up with a prayer, are always opened with a Christian prayer.

 

[waitasec]

Sigh -here we go again. Seems like I'm always having to repeat myself with you, waitasec.

My response WAS a response to defender's post - this portion in particular (which I had clipped as the quote I was responding to - but I'll REPEAT MYSELF again):



To this, I responded with the recent example of a Muslim invocation at a small town East Texas graduation ceremony, along with the notation that the crowd was very polite, receptive, and calm about the whole thing.

I mentioned that this occurred in the south, not because it is UNUSUAL (I have no idea whether it is or not, because I attend graduation ceremonies as seldom as humanly possible, since they are so incredibly boring), but simply because it pertained directly to Defender's post.

But, as usual, you add a twist and your own agenda to what I've said. Don't worry about it - I'm very used to it by now.

By the way, I've lived and worked all over the US - I don't believe that the American South is "the most racists" part of our country, and I doubt seriously that you could provide any credible data to support your biased claim. From what I can tell, prejudice comes in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and agendas and varies greatly between individuals.

Most of us - you and I included - have prejudices we can't even see because we're focusing on the splinter in someone else's eye when we should be focused on the log in our own eye.

So in Los Angeles, muslim prayers at graduation are the norm? How did you come across this information? Please share your source.

now now now kathryn this is what you quoted...you left out a crucial point... and i highlighted for you in red...

Another side of the coin, is that speaking from American and Canadian societies, how many ceremonies and events open up with a Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu prayer? They are almost always Christian prayers. That's a result of demographics, but also culture and history. But why continue culture and historical practices when it excludes others? I'm not offended by anyone else praying to whomever they wish, I just don't think anyone else should be subjected to it. You don't need to pray at a ceremony that has a purpose of honouring graduates.

For the record, I am not trying to impress you. Life's too short.

oh i know you tryin to impress me...
we here just to shoot the sh**, right?

 

[Kathryn]

But as you also stated earlier, it was an exception to the rule. The impression I got from that post was that this is not a normal occurance. It's certainly not a normal occurance in my neck of the woods here in Northern Ontario (we have about...six Muslims here?). I can speak from my own experience here that events, if they are opened up with a prayer, are always opened with a Christian prayer.

Right. It IS unusual - as it probably would be in most of the United States considering that Muslims are a religious minority in this country.

My point was clearly that though it is unusual, it was treated respectfully and tolerantly - as acts by various religious people should be as long as they do no harm to others.

 

[waitasec]

Right. It IS unusual - as it probably would be in most of the United States considering that Muslims are a religious minority in this country.

My point was clearly that though it is unusual, it was treated respectfully and tolerantly - as acts by various religious people should be as long as they do no harm to others.

great!!! problem solved....

 

[Kathryn]

great!!! problem solved....

No, the problem is absolutely NOT solved because some people do not feel it is necessary to respect or tolerate ANY religious expressions at any secular activities - while some religious people simply do not live in a secular mindset or separate "secular" life from life in general.

 

[Poisonshady313]

No, the problem is absolutely NOT solved because some people do not feel it is necessary to respect or tolerate ANY religious expressions at any secular activities - while some religious people simply do not live in a secular mindset or separate "secular" life from life in general.

That's not true. It has been said repeatedly that people expressing themselves religiously... even in public, is quite fine and unobjectionable.

The problem comes when you want to start leading assemblies in prayer when those in attendance aren't all inclined to do so. And that saying those who don't want to pray should "just think about something else" is unacceptable. There's no need to single out yourselves... or to single out others... at a time when everyone gathered is there for a united purpose (be it a graduation ceremony, session of government, etc...)