do you consider pro-choice people to be catholics?

[Runlikethewind]

I think I may have misunderstood Runlikethewind. What he is talking about is a Catholic doctine known as "sacramental character" which basically leaves a ineffaceable tattoo on the soul. In that sense, yes we are all catholic for life.

I was talking more about being part of the Body of Christ, which is more then just having a mark on the soul, but being in the right state.

Yes, only in that it doesn't give "degrees" of anathema's, she just severs one off completely.

Sorry about the misunderstanding RLW.

Yes Victor I see what you are saying. My point was to simply disagree with the concept that we can say that "this person may claim to be a Catholic but they really aren't because they disagree with the Church on such and such a position". I think that is a judgmental, divisive, and unproductive approach. Unless a person denounces the faith or the Church officially kicks them out, I don't think its our place to judge their status as a Catholic. It is not our place to determine when a person is in a state of mortal sin. that is between God and that person...and maybe we could say that persons confessor as well. We should instead focus on the persons erroneous position and try to correct them of their error. I mean heck, there are many things I don't fully agree with the Church on but I still consider myself a Catholic.

I don't understand why it would be any different for a Catholic than anyone else who is against abortion but pro-choice. One can be personally against abortion and still hold that, even though they believe it to be wrong, it is not for them to decide such things for others. Not everyone believes the same way and have the same morals. Why is it impossible for a Catholic to accept that and base their legal stance thusly?

I cannot agree with that type of reasoning. To me it would be the same as saying I am against slavery but if other people want to do it, who am I to say they can't?

Heathen,

Are there any studies/reasons that would compel one to beleive that while disregarding Church teachings on Marriage, sex, and monogamy they faithfully adhere to the teachings about ABC?

Mr. Emu is right, one has to take the Churches teaching on sexuality as a whole package deal. If a person does not practice monogamy and does not follow the Churches teachings against pre-marital sex then why would they follow the teaching on contraceptives? In fact they shouldn't follow the Churches teachings on contraceptives if they are going to choose to participate in promiscuous sexual activity.

On a side note I wonder if this thread is becoming too heated for the DIR forum?

 

[Mister_T]

**MOD POST***

This is a DIR folks, which means no debating or questions of an argumentive nature. If you have an issue in this thread that you'd like to debate, please make a seperate thread in the debate forums.

Thanks.​

 

[Draka]

I don't think I was arguing with anything, but if anyone took my post as that then I apologize.

 

[Father Heathen]

**MOD POST***

This is a DIR folks, which means no debating or questions of an argumentive nature. If you have an issue in this thread that you'd like to debate, please make a seperate thread in the debate forums.

Thanks.​

I spot these posts at the bottom of the main page in "latest replies", rarely noticing what actual DIR they're in.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes Victor I see what you are saying. My point was to simply disagree with the concept that we can say that "this person may claim to be a Catholic but they really aren't because they disagree with the Church on such and such a position". I think that is a judgmental, divisive, and unproductive approach. Unless a person denounces the faith or the Church officially kicks them out, I don't think its our place to judge their status as a Catholic. It is not our place to determine when a person is in a state of mortal sin. that is between God and that person...and maybe we could say that persons confessor as well. We should instead focus on the persons erroneous position and try to correct them of their error. I mean heck, there are many things I don't fully agree with the Church on but I still consider myself a Catholic.

This is probably going to lead us into a tangent, but I've struggled with this. Is it because I'm being judgemental? If it is, Lord help me. I've done some real deep thinking to try to find the source of the problem and the first place I start is myself.

To give you a real life example. Much of my wife's family consider themselves catholic. They don't attend mass, hold polar opposite views of the Church on things like abortion, death penalty, and social issues in general. We had a visitor at one of our family birthday parties and somehow catholicism popped up. The girl who was visiting started asking questions and as you can imagine much of how she was starting to paint the Church was being formed by the people around her. I couldn't stay silent and spoke up. A birthday party probably wasn't the best place for me to have spoken up, but I just couldn't take it that the Church was being painted any other way then what it is.

The girl just thought it was a joke that we both considered ourselves catholic and taught completely different things.

Was I being judgemental?
Was I being divisive?
Should I have stayed silent?

You can answer in another thread as it will probably be more appropriate.

The Least in Christ,
~Victor

 

[etep513]

Of course contraceptives aren't fool proof, but they're immensely better than using none at all. Denouncing and discouraging the use of contraceptives is completely ignorant, reckless and irresponsible. It's ridicilous to think that using Jesus voodoo to repress people's libido is actually an effective tactic against the AIDS epidemic.

Abstinence is by far the best tactic in terms of disease prevention. BTW, you will have on heck of a time when Christ judges you and he brings up this instance when you called his teachings "Jesus voodoo". Rejecting God is by far the worst sin a man can be guilty of.

 

[etep513]

This is probably going to lead us into a tangent, but I've struggled with this. Is it because I'm being judgemental? If it is, Lord help me. I've done some real deep thinking to try to find the source of the problem and the first place I start is myself.

To give you a real life example. Much of my wife's family consider themselves catholic. They don't attend mass, hold polar opposite views of the Church on things like abortion, death penalty, and social issues in general. We had a visitor at one of our family birthday parties and somehow catholicism popped up. The girl who was visiting started asking questions and as you can imagine much of how she was starting to paint the Church was being formed by the people around her. I couldn't stay silent and spoke up. A birthday party probably wasn't the best place for me to have spoken up, but I just couldn't take it that the Church was being painted any other way then what it is.

The girl just thought it was a joke that we both considered ourselves catholic and taught completely different things.

Was I being judgemental?
Was I being divisive?
Should I have stayed silent?

You can answer in another thread as it will probably be more appropriate.

The Least in Christ,
~Victor

You have to remember that God determined what was right and wrong. If a person commits a mortal sin and you tell them, then you are not being judgmental at all. You are using God's judgments to stop evil in its tracks (something that all followers of Christ are obligated to do).

 

[rinojg]

Is it our role to judge the Catholicism of other believers? Or is it God's? I think pro-choice Catholics believe abortion is an evil but also believe in a divding line between their morality and public policy.

 

[Doodlebug02]

AIDS would not be spreading as quickly as it is today if people simply had one partner. Also, the main problem in those parts of the world is that they do not have adequate medicine and testing. A condom isn't going to prevent HIV. My point is that people need to stop having so much sex.

Exactly! And besides that, having sex with a condom when one partner has HIV is like playing Russian roulette.

Anyway, back to the topic. I personally don't see how any committed Catholic could ever consider themselves to be pro-choice. So no, I do not consider "pro-choice" (what about the choice of the innocent baby?) Catholics to actually be truly Catholic.

 

[Augustin56]

No, I don't. Being a "Pro-Choice Catholic" is like claiming to be a "Nazi Jew" in WWII.

 

[juj]

Is it our role to judge the Catholicism of other believers? Or is it God's? I think pro-choice Catholics believe abortion is an evil but also believe in a divding line between their morality and public policy.

Murder is against the law according to public policy.

 

[Doodlebug02]

The Church has taught from the very beginning that abortion is wrong.

"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Abortion

Therefore, any Catholic who is pro-choice is a cafeteria Catholic and not a true Catholic.

 

[Doodlebug02]

If someone claims to be a Catholic and also claims to be pro-choice then they are nothing more than a cafeteria Catholic. So no, a person who is pro-choice and claims to be Catholic is not truly Catholic in my opinion.