Do the false claims of the Book of Mormon undermine Mormonism?

[Flankerl]

Evidence that the Hebrews came to America

I always get a headache when I read this.

 

[Kirran]

I always get a headache when I read this.

It is definite. Albert Einstein went to America.

 

[gsa]

I think he basically had visions, which may or may not have been wish-fulfilling hallucinations.

Had Smith been operating a few hundred years earlier, prior to the Enlightenment when these things were fairly common, I might believe that was the case. However, Smith was charged with using seer stones to find lost treasures or hidden gold, a practice that was banned in New York and other states because it was associated with swindling. Subsequent charges, followed by flight to Missouri, followed. In Illinois, the Mormon-controlled municipal court of Nauvoo was able to dismiss charges against Smith and quash extradition.

Do I think all of these charges were valid? Not necessarily; I don't agree with criminalization of polygamy, adultery and fornication for starters. But illegal banking and the failure of the Kirtland bank? Many of the complainants were former Mormons who believed Smith had swindled them.

In any event, Smith's revelations do not find any corroboration in the historical record, however incomplete it may be. Whether he believed them or not is largely immaterial; these were purportedly divine revelations of cosmic theological and spiritual significance. I do think that the historicity of these claims matters, just as the historicity of biblical claims matters. For the overwhelming majority of people who identify as Christian, the resurrection was a historical event in which Jesus rose from the grave. For the majority of Orthodox Jews, Moses was a historical figure who was the author of the torah. And so on.

 

[gsa]

I always get a headache when I read this.

To be fair, he wasn't the first to propose this.

 

[Kirran]

Had Smith been operating a few hundred years earlier, prior to the Enlightenment when these things were fairly common, I might believe that was the case. However, Smith was charged with using seer stones to find lost treasures or hidden gold, a practice that was banned in New York and other states because it was associated with swindling. Subsequent charges, followed by flight to Missouri, followed. In Illinois, the Mormon-controlled municipal court of Nauvoo was able to dismiss charges against Smith and quash extradition.

Do I think all of these charges were valid? Not necessarily; I don't agree with criminalization of polygamy, adultery and fornication for starters. But illegal banking and the failure of the Kirtland bank? Many of the complainants were former Mormons who believed Smith had swindled them.

In any event, Smith's revelations do not find any corroboration in the historical record, however incomplete it may be. Whether he believed them or not is largely immaterial; these were purportedly divine revelations of cosmic theological and spiritual significance. I do think that the historicity of these claims matters, just as the historicity of biblical claims matters. For the overwhelming majority of people who identify as Christian, the resurrection was a historical event in which Jesus rose from the grave. For the majority of Orthodox Jews, Moses was a historical figure who was the author of the torah. And so on.

We of course cannot prove Smith's motives or beliefs either way.

But the historicity of scriptural claims of a historical nature isn't necessary for following that scripture. Many Christians don't accept all of the Bible's events as literally accurate.

 

[Nietzsche]

I always get a headache when I read this.

Me too. Especially when you remember the technological superiority the Hebrews would've had over any civilization found in the Americas at the time. Iron-working, alcohol-making, the wheel. And there's also the issue of why they didn't bring any of their working-animals with them, namely horses. They would've been a technological superpower compared to the indigenous peoples living there, and they would've been able to quickly & easily conquer them.

That is the biggest problem with the 'American Hebrews' theory. Even if somehow they weren't able to conquer the peoples around them, their technology would've been co-opted by surrounding peoples. No rational argument exists for why these things wouldn't spread through the Americas.

 

[Flankerl]

Me too. Especially when you remember the technological superiority the Hebrews would've had over any civilization found in the Americas at the time. Iron-working, alcohol-making, the wheel. And there's also the issue of why they didn't bring any of their working-animals with them, namely horses. They would've been a technological superpower compared to the indigenous peoples living there, and they would've been able to quickly & easily conquer them.

That is the biggest problem with the 'American Hebrews' theory. Even if somehow they weren't able to conquer the peoples around them, their technology would've been co-opted by surrounding peoples. No rational argument exists for why these things wouldn't spread through the Americas.

That and that they obviously adopted Christianity as obviously only the virtuous Jews would do. Though that doesn't lead to a headache, more of an urge in my throat to get something out.

 

[Flankerl]

To be fair, he wasn't the first to propose this.

So he wasn't the only stupid person. Well good for him.

 

[zomg]

A few years back, John Dehlin, who started the Mormon Stories Podcast, put up a survey for former/non believing Mormons to fill out. Basically, he wanted to find out what was the main reason(s) why people stopped believing in Mormonism. I think over 3,000 participated - myself being one of them.

You can go to the link and read the results. The historicity of the Book of Mormon is one of the results.

Understanding Mormon Disbelief Survey – Results and Analysis | Mormon Stories Podcast

 

[gsa]

A few years back, John Dehlin, who started the Mormon Stories Podcast, put up a survey for former/non believing Mormons to fill out. Basically, he wanted to find out what was the main reason(s) why people stopped believing in Mormonism. I think over 3,000 participated - myself being one of them.

You can go to the link and read the results. The historicity of the Book of Mormon is one of the results.

Understanding Mormon Disbelief Survey – Results and Analysis | Mormon Stories Podcast

It looks like that is a substantial factor for quite a few people who took the survey. Was that one of the primary reasons you left the LDS?

 

[zomg]

It looks like that is a substantial factor for quite a few people who took the survey. Was that one of the primary reasons you left the LDS?

Hard to say exactly since it's been about six years since I started disbelieving the claims of Mormonism. I do know the Book of Mormon was the last thing I gave up on. I couldn't explain it, or couldn't think of how it could be made up...until I read An Insider's View of Mormon Origins.

The first unique Mormon claim to give me pause was polygamy/polyandry.

 

[Watchmen]

I've stopped practicing Mormonism because of its history. Church leaders have often said the Church rises or falls with Joseph Smith and The Book of Mormon. I've concluded Joseph's stories aren't true and neither is The Book of Mormon. Thus, Mormonism is not true and its claims are not true. So, I'm not going to participate in something I don't believe in and I'm not going to have my kids do so either. I have no animosity towards the church. It has blessed my life immensely. But I cannot continue to go through the motions.

 

[rrosskopf]

People may find the works of Shakespeare inspiring, but they don't form religions around them. How seriously do people take the practitioners of the Jedi religion? And they make no claim that the Star Wars mythos describes future or historical events that took place "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away."

But if the historical claims in the Book of Mormon are not true, as is the consensus of non-Mormon archaeologists and historians, why would we credit any other theological, spiritual or moral claims made by the book's proponents? Moreover, can you be LDs and believe that these historical claims are not true? It seems that Jenkins and others have an understanding of the religion entirely different from the Mormons themselves.

If one listens to or reads only anti-mormon propaganda, one is left with a very one-sided view of things. It is kind of like convicting someone without letting them argue their own case. I have reviewed much of the anti-Mormon propaganda, and have researched their claims, and have discovered them to be out of harmony with the actual facts.

Some claims can be easily proven or disproven and some cannot. Antagonists generally try to find the one thing that they think will prove the religion false, rather than finding explanations for all the things that prove it to be true. Mormons have an embarrassment of riches, religiously speaking. The wealth of eye-witness testimony to the gold plates and the angel Moroni, as well as the many miracles, visions, and sightings of other angels puts the church on solid ground. Naysayers try to fight the tidal wave with a teaspoon, but they aren't really in a position to do any damage. So they focus on minutia. Since some people believe the namesake of the Hill Cumorah, where Joseph Smith found the plates, was the actual hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon, skeptics point out the total lack of physical evidence of warfare at that site. Their theory is inherently weak to the core; no one has proven that the hill in New York was the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Neither Joseph Smith, Moroni, or Mormon ever suggested as much. Nor is any evidence offered that bones might still persist after 1400 years of scavanger and insect activity. As far as weapons go, we don't even know what weapons they used, or what weapons might survive in the open for 1400 years. Anything useful would have been scavenged by the natives.

Then there is the claim that Joseph Smith stole a novel from Solomon Spaulding. A complete lack of any evidence has not stalled this theory from being taught even today. Nor does the theory explain the wealth of spiritual phenomena, or any of the other evidence...

The skeptic, who now feels under attack, starts stammering about horses and chariots and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, but he has already spent his best ammunition, and doesn't realize it.

The remains of several horses, found through North America and Canada have been carbon dated to the Book of Mormon era. One could argue that a chariot has to have wheels, but that is a modern understanding influenced heavily by Ben-hur. It doesn't speak at all to what a Jew in 600 BC might consider to be a chariot. The Jews adopted the Egyptian word for chariot to describe litters. They obviously didn't care that litters didn't have wheels. A big stink has been raised by skeptics about Joseph Smith translating an Egyptian Book of the Dead, but the theory is based on so many unprovable assumptions as to render it completely impotent. The physical evidence actually supports Joseph Smith.

At this point skeptics often start using profanity, and repeating their unproven and unsupported accusations. They are seldom persuaded by evidence. They have already made up their mind, and have no intention of backing a different horse.

 

[rrosskopf]

If one listens to or reads only anti-mormon propaganda, one is left with a very one-sided view of things. It is kind of like convicting someone without letting them argue their own case. I have reviewed much of the anti-Mormon propaganda, and have researched their claims, and have discovered them to be out of harmony with the actual facts.

Some claims can be easily proven or disproven and some cannot. Antagonists generally try to find the one thing that they think will prove the religion false, rather than finding explanations for all the things that prove it to be true. Mormons have an embarrassment of riches, religiously speaking. The wealth of eye-witness testimony to the gold plates and the angel Moroni, as well as the many miracles, visions, and sightings of other angels puts the church on solid ground. Naysayers try to fight the tidal wave with a teaspoon, but they aren't really in a position to do any damage. So they focus on minutia. Since some people believe the namesake of the Hill Cumorah, where Joseph Smith found the plates, was the actual hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon, skeptics point out the total lack of physical evidence of warfare at that site. Their theory is inherently weak to the core; no one has proven that the hill in New York was the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Neither Joseph Smith, Moroni, or Mormon ever suggested as much. Nor is any evidence offered that bones might still persist after 1400 years of scavanger and insect activity. As far as weapons go, we don't even know what weapons they used, or what weapons might survive in the open for 1400 years. Anything useful would have been scavenged by the natives.

Then there is the claim that Joseph Smith stole a novel from Solomon Spaulding. A complete lack of any evidence has not stalled this theory from being taught even today. Nor does the theory explain the wealth of spiritual phenomena, or any of the other evidence...

The skeptic, who now feels under attack, starts stammering about horses and chariots and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, but he has already spent his best ammunition, and doesn't realize it.

The remains of several horses, found through North America and Canada have been carbon dated to the Book of Mormon era. One could argue that a chariot has to have wheels, but that is a modern understanding influenced heavily by Ben-hur. It doesn't speak at all to what a Jew in 600 BC might consider to be a chariot. The Jews adopted the Egyptian word for chariot to describe litters. They obviously didn't care that litters didn't have wheels. A big stink has been raised by skeptics about Joseph Smith translating an Egyptian Book of the Dead, but the theory is based on so many unprovable assumptions as to render it completely impotent. The physical evidence actually supports Joseph Smith.

At this point skeptics often start using profanity, and repeating their unproven and unsupported accusations. They are seldom persuaded by evidence. They have already made up their mind, and have no intention of backing a different horse.

The Book of Mormon makes the outlandish claim of being written in reformed Egyptian. A transcription of the characters is available for anyone to study. The characters overwhelming match the Egyptian Demotic. Any school kid of today who has graduated grade school has received far more formal education than Joseph Smith receive, yet I bet few if any have ever heard of the Egyptian Demotic.

The Book of Mormon may have been written using the Egyptian syllabary, but the language was clearly Hebrew. Hebrew grammar and style is found throughout the Book of Mormon. Hebrew uses cognates, where the same word is used both as a verb and as a noun, in the same sentence. Many examples can be found in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Also in Hebrew, dependent clauses often start with the word "that". This is also common to both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Conjunctions are used more often in Hebrew, because they didn't have use of a comma. So we find "and" and "or" in great proliferation in both books. Hebrew also has very few adverbs. Adverbs are conspicuous by their absence in both books. Certain phrases and words were used as paragraph breaks in Hebrew, and are found throughout the Bible and Book of Mormon in great numbers. One of these is the common phrase "It came to pass".

 

[Katzpur]

I always get a headache when I read this.

When something gives me a headache, I make a point not to do it again.

 

[McBell]

Do the false claims of the Book of Mormon undermine Mormonism?

No more or less than the false claims of the Bible.
Or the Koran.

 

[gsa]

No more or less than the false claims of the Bible.
Or the Koran.

Damning with faint praise.

 

[JFish123]

Embarrassment: Smith’s death – suicide, heroic, or somewhere in between?Some say that Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, fought back bravely against attackers, but others believe he committed suicide by jumping out of a window. A few things are certain – he shot and was shot, and at some point, fell out of a window. He used a smuggled pistol to shoot at a mob and did not die a martyr’s death in any case, as is claimed by many Mormons. There is quite a stark contrast between Christian martyrs who – in virtually every case – trusted God enough to welcome their death and Joseph Smith who so lacked belief in his own “religion” that he was terrified of dying.
Embarrassment: No archaeological evidence. The claims made by the Book of Mormon mention specific tools, technologies, crops, and animals that simply didn’t exist in those regions at the times stated. For example, horses, cattle, sheep, and swine weren’t roaming between 2500 BC and 400 AD, as claimed. Most of these species were introduced in 1493 by Christopher Columbus. Similarly, barley and wheat weren’t grown, iron and steel weren’t being produced, and systems of weight and measurement such as the Mormons claim existed simply aren’t supported by archaeological evidence.
Embarrassment: Plagiarism of the King James BibleThere are specific quotes in the Book of Mormon that are found in the King James Bible and other modern works that Joseph Smith had access to. For example, Alma 5:52 is identical almost word-for-word to Matthew 3:10. Smith plagiarized 478 verses from the book of Isaiah, and 201 are identical to the King James Bible. If this book were truly divinely inspired, it wouldn’t have been pieced together from pieces of the books that Smith read!
Embarrassment: Polygamy – now it’s valid, now it isn’t?The first forty years of Mormonism involved plural marriage, a form of harem-keeping by men who were taught by Joseph Smith that it was a doctrine worth following. Smith then proceeded to marry half a dozen women in 1843, yet he denied to the public that he practiced this polygamy. He had at least forty wives in his lifetime, some of whom were thirteen years old, and Brigham Young had fifty wives. Now, the modern view is that polygamy is unacceptable, which seems to be a revelation brought about by the illegality of polygamy. The Mormon god can has changed his mind, it seems!
Embarrassment: Witnesses were excommunicatedTwo groups of witnesses supposedly saw the translation of the Book of Mormon, yet they were all excommunicated after disagreements with Smith. It seems the first group of three witnesses found it too much of a hoax to stay in the church after witnessing this, so a second group needed to be found. These eight men signed statements claiming to have seen and handled the golden plates, though it was later revealed that they hadn’t actually done so. In other words, Smith forced them to lie about seeing the plates.
Embarrassment: Stolen temple ritualsSymbols and rituals for Mormon temples were stolen from Freemasonry. Some of these rituals include the symbols on the “magic underpants” worn by Mormons, a secret handshake that Freemasons exchange somehow becoming the handshake people must give angels in order to enter the highest heavenly kingdom, and more. Joseph Smith was expelled from the Freemasons for this theft, though he still tried to appeal to the Masons in the mob that came to kill him by giving the first words of a Mason signal of distress, abandoning his created faith in his last moments.

 

[Katzpur]

Embarrassment: Smith’s death – suicide, heroic, or somewhere in between?Some say that Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, fought back bravely against attackers, but others believe he committed suicide by jumping out of a window. A few things are certain – he shot and was shot, and at some point, fell out of a window. He used a smuggled pistol to shoot at a mob and did not die a martyr’s death in any case, as is claimed by many Mormons. There is quite a stark contrast between Christian martyrs who – in virtually every case – trusted God enough to welcome their death and Joseph Smith who so lacked belief in his own “religion” that he was terrified of dying.
Embarrassment: No archaeological evidence. The claims made by the Book of Mormon mention specific tools, technologies, crops, and animals that simply didn’t exist in those regions at the times stated. For example, horses, cattle, sheep, and swine weren’t roaming between 2500 BC and 400 AD, as claimed. Most of these species were introduced in 1493 by Christopher Columbus. Similarly, barley and wheat weren’t grown, iron and steel weren’t being produced, and systems of weight and measurement such as the Mormons claim existed simply aren’t supported by archaeological evidence.
Embarrassment: Plagiarism of the King James BibleThere are specific quotes in the Book of Mormon that are found in the King James Bible and other modern works that Joseph Smith had access to. For example, Alma 5:52 is identical almost word-for-word to Matthew 3:10. Smith plagiarized 478 verses from the book of Isaiah, and 201 are identical to the King James Bible. If this book were truly divinely inspired, it wouldn’t have been pieced together from pieces of the books that Smith read!
Embarrassment: Polygamy – now it’s valid, now it isn’t?The first forty years of Mormonism involved plural marriage, a form of harem-keeping by men who were taught by Joseph Smith that it was a doctrine worth following. Smith then proceeded to marry half a dozen women in 1843, yet he denied to the public that he practiced this polygamy. He had at least forty wives in his lifetime, some of whom were thirteen years old, and Brigham Young had fifty wives. Now, the modern view is that polygamy is unacceptable, which seems to be a revelation brought about by the illegality of polygamy. The Mormon god can has changed his mind, it seems!
Embarrassment: Witnesses were excommunicatedTwo groups of witnesses supposedly saw the translation of the Book of Mormon, yet they were all excommunicated after disagreements with Smith. It seems the first group of three witnesses found it too much of a hoax to stay in the church after witnessing this, so a second group needed to be found. These eight men signed statements claiming to have seen and handled the golden plates, though it was later revealed that they hadn’t actually done so. In other words, Smith forced them to lie about seeing the plates.
Embarrassment: Stolen temple ritualsSymbols and rituals for Mormon temples were stolen from Freemasonry. Some of these rituals include the symbols on the “magic underpants” worn by Mormons, a secret handshake that Freemasons exchange somehow becoming the handshake people must give angels in order to enter the highest heavenly kingdom, and more. Joseph Smith was expelled from the Freemasons for this theft, though he still tried to appeal to the Masons in the mob that came to kill him by giving the first words of a Mason signal of distress, abandoning his created faith in his last moments.

You, Mr. Fish, are so full of BS I don't even know where to start in responding. You don't even want to get your facts straight! You'd rather just run off at the mouth with nonsense you've picked up from your anti-Mormon websites and bookstores. Should you ever choose to actually educate yourself with accurate information, you know where to find me. Meanwhile, I might as well just let you think you said something intelligent and move on to someone it would be worth my time to talk to.

 

[rrosskopf]

Embarrassment: Smith’s death – suicide, heroic, or somewhere in between?Some say that Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, fought back bravely against attackers, but others believe he committed suicide by jumping out of a window. A few things are certain – he shot and was shot, and at some point, fell out of a window. He used a smuggled pistol to shoot at a mob and did not die a martyr’s death in any case, as is claimed by many Mormons. There is quite a stark contrast between Christian martyrs who – in virtually every case – trusted God enough to welcome their death and Joseph Smith who so lacked belief in his own “religion” that he was terrified of dying.
Embarrassment: No archaeological evidence. The claims made by the Book of Mormon mention specific tools, technologies, crops, and animals that simply didn’t exist in those regions at the times stated. For example, horses, cattle, sheep, and swine weren’t roaming between 2500 BC and 400 AD, as claimed. Most of these species were introduced in 1493 by Christopher Columbus. Similarly, barley and wheat weren’t grown, iron and steel weren’t being produced, and systems of weight and measurement such as the Mormons claim existed simply aren’t supported by archaeological evidence.
Embarrassment: Plagiarism of the King James BibleThere are specific quotes in the Book of Mormon that are found in the King James Bible and other modern works that Joseph Smith had access to. For example, Alma 5:52 is identical almost word-for-word to Matthew 3:10. Smith plagiarized 478 verses from the book of Isaiah, and 201 are identical to the King James Bible. If this book were truly divinely inspired, it wouldn’t have been pieced together from pieces of the books that Smith read!
Embarrassment: Polygamy – now it’s valid, now it isn’t?The first forty years of Mormonism involved plural marriage, a form of harem-keeping by men who were taught by Joseph Smith that it was a doctrine worth following. Smith then proceeded to marry half a dozen women in 1843, yet he denied to the public that he practiced this polygamy. He had at least forty wives in his lifetime, some of whom were thirteen years old, and Brigham Young had fifty wives. Now, the modern view is that polygamy is unacceptable, which seems to be a revelation brought about by the illegality of polygamy. The Mormon god can has changed his mind, it seems!
Embarrassment: Witnesses were excommunicatedTwo groups of witnesses supposedly saw the translation of the Book of Mormon, yet they were all excommunicated after disagreements with Smith. It seems the first group of three witnesses found it too much of a hoax to stay in the church after witnessing this, so a second group needed to be found. These eight men signed statements claiming to have seen and handled the golden plates, though it was later revealed that they hadn’t actually done so. In other words, Smith forced them to lie about seeing the plates.
Embarrassment: Stolen temple ritualsSymbols and rituals for Mormon temples were stolen from Freemasonry. Some of these rituals include the symbols on the “magic underpants” worn by Mormons, a secret handshake that Freemasons exchange somehow becoming the handshake people must give angels in order to enter the highest heavenly kingdom, and more. Joseph Smith was expelled from the Freemasons for this theft, though he still tried to appeal to the Masons in the mob that came to kill him by giving the first words of a Mason signal of distress, abandoning his created faith in his last moments.

Joseph Smith fought and ultimately sacrificed himself to save the other brethren that were with him. He died a martyrs death. He knew he was going to his death when he turned himself in, and even prophesied his own immediate death. He sought comfort in reading the Book of Mormon, a book which could only offer comfort if Joseph knew it to be true.
There certainly were horses, cattle, sheep and swine - or at least the American versions of them. Horse bones have been found in both the US and Canada that date to the Book of Mormon era. Bison are so closely related to cattle, that they can have offspring together. Big horned sheep wander throughout North America while peccaries were captured and penned by Native Americans for food. Barley was discovered in the gravesites of Native Americans just a few years ago, so you can cross that off the list of anachronisms. Tons of iron artifacts have been found. The Mayan made meteorite iron into shiny mirrors, with which they adorned their houses. It brings to mind a scripture in the Book of Mormon that describes iron as a precious metal. In modern terminology steel refers to a carbon iron alloy, but anciently it was used to refer to brass or bronze. All the references of steel in the Bible are references to brass or bronze. Hebrew didn't differentiate between the two. It is true that no evidence of the system of barter using weights of gold and silver has been found in North America, but it is also true that the ancient Jews used such a system in the old world.
None of the witnesses ever recanted, despite a 10,000 dollar reward to any witness who would recant, and despite being excommunicated from the church. They didn't leave the church; they were forced out. Two of the three eventually humbled themselves and were rebaptized. None of the men who handled the plates ever recanted their testimony. Perhaps you should read your sources more carefully, or get better sources.