Do animals actually have a soul under Cartesian Dualism?

[psychedelicsoul]

Now lets understand something... for all you dualists out there. Descartes lived in a very pre-scientific world and did not conclude that animals have souls. He thought they felt no pain, had no conciousness and were basically robots. But cut the dude some slack, he lived 200 years before Darwin was even born.
I think if you were to take his philosophy and have a proper understanding of sceince you can conclude 2 things...

1. While the mind and brain are different, the mind isn't 100% independent of the brain. The brain still affects our mind, even if the mind is seperate from it. Think of our souls as like a radio broadcast. You need a radio to hear a radio broadcast. However, if you have bad reception, you will not be able to hear it right. Or think of it like a race car. Your soul is a race car driver. If you put a driver in a different car (Brain) you'll have a different performance.
By believing this, you can maintain the belief in dualism without throwing science out of the way completely
2. Animals definitely have souls

Descartes came to his beliefs about dualism and other things when he assumed that he existed. Cogito ergo sum. One cannot doubt ones existence while one doubts.
However, by his own definition and modern science we can assume... That animals do have souls. Because they can think. Therefore, since animals have souls, like we do, if ethics are important when dealing with humans, then they are with animals. But the only way to assume animals do not have souls it to not believe in souls.
Monkey think, therefore monkey am.

 

[George-ananda]

Well, I believe animals have souls. Animals have group souls of many individuals of their species. After death their experiences merge into their group soul. Humans have advanced a stage from the animal and have individualized souls. Actually a highly advanced domesticated animal (like a dog) in much contact with the love of humans can actually advance and individualize off his group soul and incarnate as a human in his next life.

Also, regarding animal group souls, there were some researchers that claimed an interesting phenomena with monkeys in that after a certain number have learned a new way to process/obtain a food source, then the whole group seemed to simultaneously learn the ability even without direct contact of having seen the new technique..

 

[psychoslice]

Well to me they would have a soul if there is such a thing, after all we are animals also.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Decartes was an idiot and an animal torturer. His crap has been disproven. Voltaire called him out on his cruelty to animals, too. He wasn't "pre-scientific", either. The sciences have existed since ancient times.

I do agree that animals have souls, but I'm an animist in the first place.

 

[Deidre]

Since we all evolved from animals...yes, of course.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Decartes was an idiot and an animal torturer. His crap has been disproven. Voltaire called him out on his cruelty to animals, too. He wasn't "pre-scientific", either. The sciences have existed since ancient times.

I do agree that animals have souls, but I'm an animist in the first place.

I think dualism makes more sense than saying that the physical world and spiritual world coexist like in animism.. Sure many of his ideas have been disproven, but the same could be said about saying that rocks possess some form of spiritual properties.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think dualism makes more sense than saying that the physical world and spiritual world coexist like in animism.. Sure many of his ideas have been disproven, but the same could be said about saying that rocks possess some form of spiritual properties.

Everything is ultimately made out of the same thing - energy waves interacting with each other. There is no such thing as "solid, inanimate matter". That's an illusion created by forcefields. The Earth and the cosmos is alive. Natural rocks are of the Earth and people have long recognized that the different rocks give off certain energies.

Decartes was just wrong and he was a crackpot sadist who tortured living animals to death. To hell with him.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Everything is ultimately made out of the same thing - energy waves interacting with each other. There is no such thing as "solid, inanimate matter". That's an illusion created by forcefields. The Earth and the cosmos is alive. Natural rocks are of the Earth and people have long recognized that the different rocks give off certain energies.

Decartes was just wrong and he was a crackpot sadist who tortured living animals to death. To hell with him.

But what does any of that matter if they're not conscious beings? Even if everything is technically "alive", nothing matters if it's not a thinking being
If the soul is not the same thing as the consciousness, then what value is there in believing in it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But what does any of that matter if they're not conscious beings? Even if everything is technically "alive", nothing matters if it's not a thinking being
If the soul is not the same thing as the consciousness, then what value is there in believing in it?

What makes you think they're not conscious? We used to believe that animals weren't conscious, thanks to idiots like Decartes. However, we're now learning that insects are self-aware. We learn new things all the time.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

What makes you think they're not conscious? We used to believe that animals weren't conscious, thanks to idiots like Decartes. However, we're now learning that insects are self-aware. We learn new things all the time.

But if there's no seperation between the soul and body, then does that mean that if kill a bug, I've killed it both spiritually and physically? If a person dies, does their soul die with them? Also, if an insect is self aware, then is an AI? Is a NPC from grand theft auto a thinking being?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But if there's no seperation between the soul and body, then does that mean that if kill a bug, I've killed it both spiritually and physically? If a person dies, does their soul die with them? Also, if an insect is self aware, then is an AI? Is a NPC from grand theft auto a thinking being?

I didn't say that the body and the soul are the same thing. I don't believe that.

An NPC in a video game is just a program running on a computer. I'm not a digital physicist. Machines aren't alive or conscious.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

I didn't say that the body and the soul are the same thing. I don't believe that.

An NPC in a video game is just a program running on a computer. I'm not a digital physicist. Machines aren't alive or conscious.

But isn't that what animism is? The idea that the physical world and spiritual world are one?
Yea, but what's the difference between a bug and an AI, other than that one is natural and the other is artificial? Is there any proof that bugs think?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But isn't that what animism is? The idea that the physical world and spiritual world are one?
Yea, but what's the difference between a bug and an AI, other than that one is natural and the other is artificial? Is there any proof that bugs think?

There's no one concept of animism. I combine my views of animism with a multiverse theory. There's different realities that bleed into each other at the "edges". Like frequencies, if you will. What we call the spiritual dimension is just a much less dense frequency.

Insects carry out complicated tasks everyday. They wouldn't really be able to do that without thinking.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...s-consciousness-able-count-claim-experts.html

 

[psychedelicsoul]

There's no one concept of animism. I combine my views of animism with a multiverse theory. There's different realities that bleed into each other at the "edges". Like frequencies, if you will. What we call the spiritual dimension is just a much less dense frequency.

Insects carry out complicated tasks everyday. They wouldn't really be able to do that without thinking.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...s-consciousness-able-count-claim-experts.html

But machines can carry out complex tasks as well.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

But isn't that what animism is? The idea that the physical world and spiritual world are one?

The traditional Western definition of animism might suggest something like that. However, there's a new approach to animism that instead of imposing western ideas about spirits and supernatural agents and so on, recognizes that in most indigenous cultures, the classification of entities in the environment simply don't follow Western concepts. The new animism recognizes that there are other-than-human persons in the environment that can and do interact with human persons. Things are/have spirit (in most cultures, not everything has/is spirit that makes it a person). We might recognize tree-spirit, or hawk spirit, and so on. But the key is for human persons to engage in respectful relationships with the other persons around them--whether they are human or not. There isn't (necessarily) separate physical and spiritual worlds, because things in the physical world are/have spirit in the physical world.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Very interesting thread

But first - just what is a Soul..?...Im sure we each hold a personal - and therefore,somewhat different idea - of just what a Soul actually is...is a soul,simply "lifeforce"..?...Does a plant,have a soul..?..Does each individual blade of grass..?.. I think we can agree perhaps - there is something far more significant about a Soul,than being a "mere energy that powers a physcal bodyform"..There is something - special - that seperates an animal form that has a Soul - from a blade of grass,that is also alive via the same process,but which clearly,is different,and does not have a Soul that we can easily recognise (crucial statement)...Can we see..?...

id say - the crucial difference - the thing that gives an animal a Soul,as opposed to being a "robot lifeform" - is definatly an aspect of SELF AWARENESS - the animal must understand it Self to a good degree,before it can even begin to realise a Soul..It must understand the differenc einthe form - and that is just a start...For instance - a lion - understands that different animals,behave in different ways - it adapts its hunting to suit each animal it pursues - it recognises they are different..So,clearly,it sees the antelope for example,as different to itself - and it sees a wart hog as different to self and as different to antelope also....It recognises that other forms are different to self,but hat other lions are the same as self....It beigns to have SELF IDENTITY - and hti sis a crucial first step to becoming a fully fledged,Soul,fully Self realised....

This lion in the example - has a Sentient mind - it recognises the differences in life..It plans and adapts..But as yet - it is not a fully realised Being,noit a Soul...For that,this Sentient mind,must now be combined with other faculties - other Self realisations - the next step - is an EMOTIONAL SELF - the Sentient mnd,must realise alongside itself,an element of connection,and union...One such as a lion,is in a perfect situation to realise this - it is a pack animal - sees the others as an extenstion of its own Self - has emotional bonding and union with other similar individuals.....

But this - step two - is it yet a Soul..?...Is it yet,fully realised Self..?....Not quite...The individual must take its Sentient and emotional mind - and realise as it looks at other lifeforms - that they too - are an identical Being - just presented in a different form....This emotional bond within the own species,must become realised as cross species,such that all life becomes seen as equal,same - just the outward form has changed and obscures that which lays wiithin....

With this stage of Self realisation - truly - the Eternal Soul is born....when such a one dies the body fails - yet the mind that inhabited that body,fully realisess,the body was just a shell that the mind wore like clothes...In life,the mind must come to realise this startling Self revelation - the lifeoform over there - the Other - is the same as I - just a different concealing form - doesnt matter if its a lion you look at,a mouse,a dog or a cat - they are all from the same Source and same process - all undertaking the same "journey" that we are still taking...The only difference - the crucial difference - is that we,our mind,is fully Sentient - and for a human,our emotions can be all encopmpassing - we may come to realise our Self,as part of the All-That--Is -- as a living part of Our Father - and it is this Self realisation that literally gives birth to our Eternal nature...

Not all animal forms are capable of attaining that Self realisation..Obviously - a blade of grass,cannot even begin the process,yet it is alive nonetheless...An insect likewise,severely limited...Most lifeforms actually - severely limited...It must be Sentient mnd - such as a hunter,predator type..It must be emotionally cognisant,such as a pack animal...Look though - a sheep is a pack animal - but is is not sentient to anywhere near the required degree - niether is it emotional,past bare instincts...This sheep has no soul...Be sure of that,because when the predator attacks,the sheep all scatter each for the self - and when calm again,where one leads the other follows blindly - not free thinking,but follownmg instincts alone - not Sentient...

Sow we see - not all naimals will have Soul - not a legitimate,eternal perspective of Self...For surely that is what a Soul is..?..An individual who has seen past the illusion of life,to know for sure,they are eternal,part of he Divine...An animal may never realise that at all..No insects - most herd animals that are prey have no souls - most predators,are a step closer,but again,no Souls....No EMPATHY - no breaking down perception to see Other as same as Self...Without that realisation,there is no Soul,for how can you realise Self as eternal Soul,if you identify with a body or world situation,as an animal does..?...All about the Self perception...

But strangely - perhaps not - we see on occassion,an animal will individually exhibit such cross species bonding,all by itself it seems,and completly aganst the species norm...Lions may indeed befriend antelope,instead of eating them...Something within the lions own mind - own Self perception - has allowed it to see what was once prey,as now something that is kindred....Such an individual has taken a giant leap forward,spiritually speaking - and so perhaps,even animals may progress this spiritual journey alongside us - but as yet,they have no eternal Self realisation,and so no true Soul....

Perhaps,on some deep subconscious level,we realise this to be true - and this is why we are so fascinated with life around,and take it upon our Self to give it homes among us,to adopt pets that become an actual cherished part of the inner family,loved fully...OUR Soul recognises the fledgling Soul that they are becoming - and such interaction with us - a different species,different form entirely - is of a great help to their young Soul,brginging indeed ,direct reaisation that althought the outward forms are wholly different,the "thing" within - the spirit - is identical - just the Self realisation is different,that is all...Thus,we nurture the Soul of our pet,allow it to mature into its own full Self realisation - same as us,yet diffferent,just for now...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But machines can carry out complex tasks as well.

Then the logical conclusion of your argument is that we all could be a sort of machine and that shoots your entire argument in the foot. Because I don't see what makes us so different compared to an insect or any other member of the animal kingdom. You do realize that insects are members of the animal kingdom, so why would they be excluded from having souls, in your view?