Differentiation between the light and the dark?

[2ndpillar]

As far I can make, the ONLY place in the bible where we're told the wages of sin are death is in the writings of Paul ─ otherwise not anywhere in the Tanakh, not anywhere in the gospels, not in any sayings of Jesus.

My own view is that it's a very silly idea anyway. Death is what made evolution effective, hence made humans possible. For animals our size, to live is to die.

Please correct me if you can quote some part of the bible not by Paul that spells this notion out.

Your "evolution theory", with the new complications of creation being discovered, with no new DNA building blocks created since creation, is being thrown on the trash heap of bad theories. Darwin doesn't explain the creation of the first bacteria. and why it didn't go from 1 cell to 2 cells, to 3 cells, thereon. The more science progresses, the less Darwin's theory applies to what is actually now known.

Ezekiel 18:20​

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

King James Bible Jeremiah 31:30
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge

 

[2ndpillar]

Science does remain based on the objective verifiable evidence as to what can be observed,

Mr. Science, Mr. Fauci, has been nothing but a sell out and a well of false information, and most of his science comrades supported him. What does that tell you about science?

 

[shunyadragon]

Mr. Science, Mr. Fauci, has been nothing but a sell out and a well of false information, and most of his science comrades supported him. What does that tell you about science?

Mr. Fauci is objective, accurate and consistent in his science. You rely ancient tribal mythology without science.

 

[F1fan]

And you know the truth?

I know that religious "Truth" is based on unwarranted assumptions. It is a fatal flaw in religious belief that it is deemed "Truth" at the same time believers can't demonstrate these ideas are true in reality, or even plausible.

The "truth" means any idea of statement that is true, and can be established as true. I apply a high standard of thought to anything that I consider truth. If I were to testify in court, as many people do every day, we all have to apply the same standard to avoid perjury.

If you were in court and had to swear to tell the truth, would you claim that you KNOW a God exists as a fact? Or would you admit you aren't sure, and only believe for various reasons?

How do you know it is not just your wishful thinking?

I'm not claiming that any God exists, you are. Theists do. You are claiming a certain interpretation of the Bible that even your fellow Christians disagree with, and you can't make a case that convinces them you are correct. You believe your interpretation is valid and that it has authority over those like me who aren't convinced. Your judgment is flawed and requires way too many assumptions. You want your beliefs to be true, yet you can't show anyone that they are. Is it possible you are mistaken?

It's on those who make a claim of truth that have the burden of proof. I'm not convinced any Gods exist due to a lack of evidence that meets my high standard of judgment.

 

[F1fan]

If science doesn't have the truth, why take it seriously?

"The truth" isn't what science claims. This is a religious position that lacks adequate evidence to be considered true. The problem is not science, the problem is religious extremists who believe their dogma is superior to a method that follows facts and limits bias. You have no way to deny this observation as we all see it.

I think science can be truthful, if it remains in what can be observed.

Yet you have a strong bias against science given your misrepresentations of it, and lack of reasoning skill in general.

It would be nice if all people would know the truth. Unfortunately it seems many don't want to know it.

And who has the "truth", you? Is that what you are subtly claiming? If you are correct most all of your fellow Christians are wrong, and all other religions are false. Is that extreme and judgmental attitude light or dark?

 

[2ndpillar]

Mr. Fauci is objective, accurate and consistent in his science. You rely ancient tribal mythology without science.

Mr. Fauci is consistent, in that he is a liar, and even lied to Congress about funding the covid virus research being done in China, and told the public that masks did not work, and then reversed himself with no evidence, to say they did work, when in actuality, they don't work against a virus. The 6' distancing was made up out of thin air, with no evidence provided. The public was told that if they received the vaccine that they would not get the virus, which was a lie born out with time and reality. The public was told that the vaccine was safe, but time and reality say differently, and one vaccine product was prohibited in Europe due to the harm it caused. Now, "scientists" are coming out against getting a shot because of problems, such as death by stroke, etc.. As for "science", the father of science, Isaac Newton, wrote more books on the bible, then he did on science, and his book on mathematics was done to show that there is a creator. Newton looked to the bible for the source code of creation. Creationist, and their atheist followers, have come up against roadblocks, when confronted with recent science discoveries, and many of their leaders seem to be crumbling in their stances. If you look at recent podcasts about Sam Harris, a foremost atheist, you can see that Sam is going off the deep end. Like most Progressives, he has apparently a bad case of Trump syndrome, and condoned anything with respect to taking Trump down, which includes suspending democratic process, and the promotion of false narratives. Sam described Trump as a rogue meteor coming from space, in which no action should be prohibited in keeping Trump from being elected. Of course, he is right with respect to the Progressives being completely undermined by such an election. But that is "good", not "bad", with respect to those who view it from the "right", whereas the "left" disagree.

 

[blü 2]

Your "evolution theory", with the new complications of creation being discovered, with no new DNA building blocks created since creation, is being thrown on the trash heap of bad theories. Darwin doesn't explain the creation of the first bacteria. and why it didn't go from 1 cell to 2 cells, to 3 cells, thereon. The more science progresses, the less Darwin's theory applies to what is actually now known.

Ezekiel 18:20​

Thanks. However, neither of those is about physical death, which is Paul's claim, and in no way justifies Paul's notion of the Fall. It appears to me to remain unique to Paul in the bible.

 

[2ndpillar]

Thanks. However, neither of those is about physical death, which is Paul's claim, and in no way justifies Paul's notion of the Fall. It appears to me to remain unique to Paul in the bible.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.

That "die" is with regard to "death" and dying. While the false prophet Paul's story might be interesting to you, it is but a story, by way of the false prophet Paul, based on the sin of Adam and Eve. With respect to Ezekiel 18:20 & Jeremiah 31:30 it states that each man will die according to their own iniquities/transgressions, and "the son will not be punished for the father's (Adam's) iniquity". You can blame Adam for all your iniquities, but the consequences will fall upon you. As Ez 18:21 states, one has the option of turning from sin, or follow Paul, and be in step with the "foremost sinner". The common point is that all die because all are sinners, but apparently, some confess their sins, repent, and will not die before their time, and have a "full life" (Ez 20:12). The sinners/wicked will remain in their graves post the millennium whereas the righteous, will raise from the dead and judge the nations. (Revelation 20:4) But then again, man is given the choice of choosing the light/truth, or the darkness/lie. As with regard to Yeshua's message, the "many" choose the lie of the "false prophets" (Mt 7:12-15)

Ezekiel 18:20
King James Bible
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

King James Bible Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

(Exodus 20:12) “You must honor and respect your father and as well as your mother. Do this so that you will have a full life in the land that the Lord your God gives you.”

 

[blü 2]

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.

That "die" is with regard to "death" and dying.

That can't be right, or the righteous from the first millennium BCE would still be living among us.

While the false prophet Paul's story might be interesting to you, it is but a story, by way of the false prophet Paul, based on the sin of Adam and Eve.

Of course, God had denied Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, so they were incapable of forming an intention to do wrong, hence incapable of sin, until after they'd eaten the fruit. And it's only a story anyway.

With respect to Ezekiel 18:20 & Jeremiah 31:30 it states that each man will die according to their own iniquities/transgressions, and "the son will not be punished for the father's (Adam's) iniquity".

Yes, which makes "original sin" impossible.

You can blame Adam for all your iniquities, but the consequences will fall upon you.

That would be like blaming the Big Bad Wolf for the cost of home insurance.

 

[2ndpillar]

That can't be right, or the righteous from the first millennium BCE would still be living among us.

As explained in Exodus 20:12 & Ecclesiastes 7:17, the righteous do not die before their time, whereas the wicked will die before their allotted time. As for the righteous, they will eventually die sometime before the age of 120, yet be raised from the dead at the beginning of the millennium, to judge the nations/Gentiles(Rev 20:4). For the followers of the "message" of the "devil"/"enemy"(Matthew 13:39-42), Paul's false gospel of grace, this might be hard to amalgamate within their dogmas based around the message of the false prophet Paul, who as with the "dragon" has promised them everlasting life if they belief his message (Genesis 3:4).

Ecclesiastes 7:17 Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool— why die before your time?

 

[MikeF]

Ecclesiastes 7:17 Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool— why die before your time?

I don't think this is saying what you think it is saying. It really has nothing to do with righteousness. If you notice, the advice is not to be overwicked. A little wicked and you should be fine, just don't overdo it.

It is basically saying don't be an idiot and get yourself killed doing something stupid.

 

[blü 2]

As explained in Exodus 20:12 & Ecclesiastes 7:17, the righteous do not die before their time, whereas the wicked will die before their allotted time. As for the righteous, they will eventually die sometime before the age of 120, yet be raised from the dead at the beginning of the millennium, to judge the nations/Gentiles(Rev 20:4). For the followers of the "message" of the "devil"/"enemy"(Matthew 13:39-42), Paul's false gospel of grace, this might be hard to amalgamate within their dogmas based around the message of the false prophet Paul, who as with the "dragon" has promised them everlasting life if they belief his message (Genesis 3:4).

Ecclesiastes 7:17 Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool— why die before your time?

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20

I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.​

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.​

They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.​

All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

§
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.​

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.​

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.​

 

[2ndpillar]

Of course, God had denied Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, so they were incapable of forming an intention to do wrong, hence incapable of sin, until after they'd eaten the fruit. And it's only a story anyway.

The story was that Adam and Eve were to keep God's commandment or die. They, like Paul's followers, think they would not die, because that is what the "serpent"/"devil" told them. Of course, the humanist/atheist/Christian think they know good from evil, and are therefore on par with the gods, but in the end, they will all die. According to Malachi, the "arrogant" (Malachi 3:14-18) cannot differentiate righteousness from wickedness until the end (Malachi 3:18), when the "wicked" will not be spared. As for "sin", that is transgression of the law/commandment of God (1 John 3:4), for which Adam and Eve transgressed, which is the opposite of that which you declared.

Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is vain to serve God; and what profit is it that we have kept His charge, and that we have walked in mourning before the LORD of hosts? 15‘So now we call the arrogant blessed; not only are the doers of wickedness built up but they also test God and escape.’”
The Book of Remembrance

16Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. 17“They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.” 18So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

 

[2ndpillar]

I don't think this is saying what you think it is saying. It really has nothing to do with righteousness. If you notice, the advice is not to be overwicked. A little wicked and you should be fine, just don't overdo it.

It is basically saying don't be an idiot and get yourself killed doing something stupid.

There is a sin leading to death, and others that simply lead to disease, and a prolonged life where death is often prayed for. If one commits a sin not leading to death, and a righteous man prays to God for their forgiveness, then God can forgive that person and heal them (James 5:15-16). Solomon also says to not be too wise, but not too foolish/wicked and die before your time (Ecclesiastes 7:15-17) A "little wicked", and you can hope you know someone righteous to have yourself healed. Commit an unforgivable sin, which is downstream, and on the road coming down from a forgivable sin, and you're up a tree without a paddle.

• 1 John 5:16-17: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this."

Ecclesiastes 7:…16 Do not be overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself? 17Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?

 

[blü 2]

The story was that Adam and Eve were to keep God's commandment or die.

They had the snake's word for it that this was not the case, and, in the event, the snake spoke truly and God spoke falsely.

And you appear to think it was a bad thing that humans acquired knowledge of good and evil, if only in a story; whereas I think we should have a public holiday every year celebrating Eve's achievement in bringing us that knowledge.

They, like Paul's followers, think they would not die

Only "not die the same day". Ultimate death is represented in the story by the presence of the Tree of Life (=immortality), and keeping this from humans is the reason God booted them out of the Garden, as God explicitly states Genesis 3:22-23. That's his only reason, as you know ─ sin is never mentioned in the story.

, because that is what the "serpent"/"devil" told them. Of course, the humanist/atheist/Christian think they know good from evil

As with Christians, some unbelievers are better at telling good from evil and some aren't so good at it.

and are therefore on par with the gods

We differ from the gods by existing in reality, instead of only as a concept or thing imagined in an individual brain, which is the only way gods are known to exist.

 

[MikeF]

• 1 John 5:16-17: "If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this."

Ecclesiastes 7:…16 Do not be overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself? 17Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?

Both these quotes are in the Bible, but why do you think they are interrelated or speaking about the same thing? Two different authors speaking at different times on different subjects.

 

[MikeF]

I think we should have a public holiday every year celebrating Eve's achievement in bringing us that knowledge.

Amen.

 

[2ndpillar]

Both these quotes are in the Bible, but why do you think they are interrelated or speaking about the same thing? Two different authors speaking at different times on different subjects.

There is one author, the Spirit of God, and two speakers. They are the same subjects, right/righteousness/light, versus darkness/wickedness/lawlessness/sin. Yeshua, the "Word" (Law & prophets) made flesh, was the light, and the way to life. The "broad"
"way" to "destruction", as crafted by the "false apostles" (Mt 7:12-15), is with respect to those who "practice lawlessness" (Mt 7:23), and who
pursue darkness, rather than light. Such as in those of the "light" go to the light, and those of the "darkness" go to the darkness. (John 3:20). If you want to pursue your sins, then cling to the false prophet Paul, and his false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness. If one senses that Paul is a double minded hypocrite, such as the leaven of the Pharisees, then one should look deeper into the matter as described by Yeshua per Matthew 18:16, and get two witnesses to confirm every matter. If Paul is the only eyewitness to his encounter in the wilderness, throw that story away, etc. If anything varies from the OT, Scripture, as defined by Yeshua, then you are trying to climb a greased pole. Even the false prophet Paul defined the "holy writings"/scriptures, as those read from youth, which would exclude the NT. Your NT canon comes from the bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius, in the year 367 A.D., a stooge of the Roman Pontifex Maximus (head of the gods/Roman church), the Roman emperor, situated in Constantinople, neither of which I would put on my good buddy list. Per Yeshua in Mt 13, the "message" of the "devil" is planted next to the "message" of the son of man, in the same field(book/NT).

John 3:19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

Matthew 18:16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

 

[MikeF]

There is one author, the Spirit of God, and two speakers. They are the same subjects, right/righteousness/light, versus darkness/wickedness/lawlessness/sin. Yeshua, the "Word" (Law & prophets) made flesh, was the light, and the way to life. The "broad"
"way" to "destruction", as crafted by the "false apostles" (Mt 7:12-15), is with respect to those who "practice lawlessness" (Mt 7:23), and who
pursue darkness, rather than light. Such as in those of the "light" go to the light, and those of the "darkness" go to the darkness. (John 3:20). If you want to pursue your sins, then cling to the false prophet Paul, and his false gospel of grace/cross/lawlessness. If one senses that Paul is a double minded hypocrite, such as the leaven of the Pharisees, then one should look deeper into the matter as described by Yeshua per Matthew 18:16, and get two witnesses to confirm every matter. If Paul is the only eyewitness to his encounter in the wilderness, throw that story away, etc. If anything varies from the OT, Scripture, as defined by Yeshua, then you are trying to climb a greased pole. Even the false prophet Paul defined the "holy writings"/scriptures, as those read from youth, which would exclude the NT. Your NT canon comes from the bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius, in the year 367 A.D., a stooge of the Roman Pontifex Maximus (head of the gods/Roman church), the Roman emperor, situated in Constantinople, neither of which I would put on my good buddy list. Per Yeshua in Mt 13, the "message" of the "devil" is planted next to the "message" of the son of man, in the same field(book/NT).

John 3:19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

Matthew 18:16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

Yeah, I disagree.

 

[1213]

And who has the "truth", you? Is that what you are subtly claiming? If you are correct most all of your fellow Christians are wrong, and all other religions are false. Is that extreme and judgmental attitude light or dark?

For example truth is that it is wrong to murder. And person who murders and doesn't repent that is evil.