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Differentiation between the light and the dark?

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Those of the light go to the light, and those of the dark go to the dark.
John 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

What is the "light"? Is it the Word of God, the Law and the prophets, who will return to rule the nations/Gentiles with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15)? Is it the encapsulated in the Commandments as the way to enter into life (Mt 19:17-18). Are the Progressives who lust after someone else's wife or some else's ox or ***, or his house/goods, or willing to make false witnesses against their neighbor, and steal whatever he can get away with, willing to abide with in the Law? If one actually believes in the "Word", the Law and the prophets, are they able to be swayed toward lawlessness. Apparently, even the "elect" can be deceived (Mt 24:14), but to regain their health, escape the "plagues" of "her", the daughters of Babylon, they will have to "come out of her" (Revelation 18:4). No one dies for the iniquities of another (Jeremiah 31:30). Making sacrifice of a son of man, nor of an unblemished sheep, does not heals one, nor does it make them whole and become healthy. If you don't believe that, go to your local hospital and or morgue. "Every one dies for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). Everyone will die. It is best to believe in the message of the son of man, and keep the Law, and forgo the "message" of the "enemy"/"devil" (Matthew 13:25), which are both planted in the same "field" (NT).

Matthew 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
 
Last edited:

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I believe God is light and that he is the light of every light.

Now creation is not a unity like God, so these things come in separate dimensions, some we know of, some we don't.

The following is from a prayer after Ziyarat Auli-Yasin as taught by the 12th Imam (a):


اَللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ أَنْ تُصَلِّيَ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ
allahumma inni as'aluka an tusalliya `ala muhammadin
O Allah, I beseech You to send blessings upon Muhammad

نَبِيِّ رَحْمَتِكَ وَكَلِمَةِ نُورِكَ
nabiyyi rahmatika wa kalimati nurika
the Prophet of Your mercy and the Word of Your Light,

وَأَنْ تَمْلَأَ قَلْبِي نُورَ ٱلْيَقِينِ
wa an tamla'a qalbi nura alyaqini
and to fill in my heart with the illumination of certitude,

وَصَدْرِي نوُرَ ٱلإِيـمَانِ
wa sadri nura al-imani
my chest with the illumination of faith,

وَفِكْرِي نُورَ ٱلنِّيَّاتِ
wa fikri nura alnniyyati
my intellect with the illumination of honest intentions,

وَعَزْمِي نُورَ ٱلْعِلْمِ
wa `azmi nura al`ilmi
my determination with the illumination of knowledge,

وَقُوَّتِي نُورَ ٱلْعَمَلِ
wa quwwati nura al`amali
my strength with the illumination of work,

وَلِسَانِي نُورَ ٱلصِّدْقِ
wa lisani nura alssidqi
my tongue with the illumination of honesty,

وَدِينِي نُورَ ٱلْبَصَائِرِ مِنْ عِنْدِكَ
wa dini nura albasa'iri min `indika
my religion with the illumination of clear evidence from You,

وَبَصَرِي نُورَ ٱلضِّيَاءِ
wa basari nura alddiya'i
my sight with the illumination of brightness,

وَسَمْعِي نُورَ ٱلْحِكْمَةِ
wa sam`i nura alhikmati
my hearing with the illumination of wisdom,

وَمَوَدَّتِي نُورَ ٱلْمُوَالاَةِ لِمُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ
wa mawaddati nura almuwalati limuhammadin wa alihi
and my faculty of love with the illumination of sincere loyalty to Muhammad and his Household,

عَلَيْهِمُ ٱلسَّلاَمُ
`alayhim alssalamu
peace be upon them,

حَتَّىٰ أَلْقَاكَ وَقَدْ وَفَيْتُ بِعَهْدِكَ وَمِيثَاقِكَ
hatta alqaka wa qad wafaytu bi`ahdika wa mithaqika
so that I, when I meet You, will have fulfilled the pledge and covenant that I made with You

فَتُغَشِّيَنِي رَحْمَتَكَ
fatughashshiyani rahmataka
and then Your mercy will encompass me.

يَا وَلِيُّ يَا حَمِيدُ
ya waliyyu ya hamidu
O Protector! O Worthy of all praise!

اَللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ
allahumma salli `ala muhammadin
O Allah, bless Muhammad (al-Mahdi)

حُجَّتِكَ فِي أَرْضِكَ
hujjatika fi ardika
Your argument in Your land,

وَخَلِيفَتِكَ فِي بِلاَدِكَ
wa khalifatika fi biladika
Your viceroy in Your countries,

وَٱلدَّاعِي إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِكَ
waldda`i ila sabilika
the caller to Your course,

وَٱلْقَائِمِ بِقِسْطِكَ
walqa'imi biqistika
the establisher of Your justice,

وَٱلثَّائِرِ بِأَمْرِكَ
walththa'iri bi'amrika
the revolting by Your command,

وَلِيِّ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ
waliyyi almu'minina
the authority of the believers,

وَبَوَارِ ٱلْكَافِرِينَ
wa bawari alkafirina
the ruiner of the unbelievers,

وَمُجَلِّي ٱلظُّلْمَةِ
wa mujalli alzzulumati
the remover of the murk,

وَمُنِيرِ ٱلْحَقِّ
wa muniri alhaqqi
the illuminator of the truth,

وَٱلنَّاطِقِ بِٱلْحِكْمَةِ وَٱلصِّدْقِ
walnnatiqi bilhikmati walssidqi
the speaker with wisdom and honesty,

وَكَلِمَتِكَ ٱلتَّامَّةِ فِي أَرْضِكَ
wa kalimatika alttammati fi ardika
the perfect Word of You in Your lands,

ٱلْمُرْتَقِبِ ٱلْخَائِفِ
almurtaqibi alkha'ifi
the vigilant and fearful,

وَٱلْوَلِيِّ ٱلنَّاصِحِ
walwaliyyi alnnasihi
the well-wishing saint,

سَفِينَةِ ٱلنَّجَاةِ
safinati alnnajati
the ark of salvation,

وَعَلَمِ ٱلْهُدَىٰ
wa `alami alhuda
the sign of guidance,

وَنُورِ أَبْصَارِ ٱلْوَرَىٰ
wa nuri absari alwara
the light of the peoples’ sights,

وَخَيْرِ مَنْ تَقَمَّصَ وَٱرْتَدَىٰ
wa khayri man taqammasa wa irtada
the best of all those who put clothes on their bodies,

وَمُجَلِّي ٱلْعَمَىٰ
wa mujalli al`ama
and the unveiler of blindness,

ٱلَّذِي يَمْلَأُ ٱلأَرْضَ عَدْلاً وَقِسْطاً
alladhi yamla'u al-arda `adlan wa qistan
who will fill the lands with justice and equity

كَمَا مُلِئَتْ ظُلْماً وَجَوْراً
kama muli'at zulman wa jawran
as it would be filled up with wrong and unfairness.

إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَديرٌ
innaka `ala kulli shay'in qadirun
You verily have power over all things.

اَللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ وَلِيِّكَ
allahumma salli `ala waliyyika
O Allah, bless Your vicegerent

وَٱبْنِ أَوْلِيَائِكَ ٱلَّذِينَ فَرَضْتَ طَاعَتَهُمْ
wabni awliya'ika alladhina faradta ta`atahum
and the son of Your vicegerents the obedience to whom You have made incumbent upon us

وَأَوْجَبْتَ حَقَّهُمْ
wa awjabta haqqahum
and the observance of the right of whom You have made obligatory

وَأَذْهَبْتَ عَنْهُمُ ٱلرِّجْسَ
wa adhhabta `anhum alrrijsa
and from whom You have removed filth

وَطَهَّرْتَهُمْ تَطْهِيراً
wa tahhartahum tathiran
and whom You have purified with thorough purifying.

اَللَّهُمَّ ٱنْصُرْهُ وَٱنْتَصِرْ بِهِ لِدِينِكَ
allahumma insurhu wantasir bihi lidinika
O Allah, give him victory and make him the supporter of Your religion

وَٱنْصُرْ بِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَكَ وَأَوْلِيَاءَهُ
wansur bihi awliya'aka wa awliya'ahu
and through him, give victory to Your and his adherents,

وَشِيعَتَهُ وَأَنْصَارَهُ
wa shi`atahu wa ansarahu
followers, and backers.

وَٱجْعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ
waj`alna minhum
Include us with them.

اَللَّهُمَّ أَعِذْهُ مِنْ شَرِّ كُلِّ بَاغٍ وَطَاغٍ
allahumma a`idhhu min sharri kulli baghin wa taghin
O Allah, protect him against the evil of every transgressor and tyrant

وَمِنْ شَرِّ جَمِيعِ خَلْقِكَ
wa min sharri jami`i khalqika
and against the evils of all Your creatures.

وَٱحْفَظْهُ مِنْ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ
wahfazhu min bayni yadayhi wa min khalfihi
Guard him from ahead of him, behind him,

وَعَنْ يَمِينِهِ وَعَنْ شِمَالِهِ
wa `an yaminihi wa `an shimalihi
his right side, and his left side.

وَٱحْرُسْهُ وَٱمْنَعْهُ مِنْ أَنْ يوُصَلَ إِلَيْهِ بِسُوءٍ
wahrus-hu wamna`hu min an yusala ilayhi bisu'in
Watch him and defend him against anything that may cause evil to him.

وَٱحْفَظْ فِيهِ رَسُولَكَ وَآلَ رَسوُلِكَ
wahfaz fihi rasulaka wa ala rasulika
Save through him Your Messenger and the family of Your Messenger.

وَأَظْهِرْ بِهِ ٱلْعَدْلَ
wa azhir bihi al`adla
Manifest justice through him.

وَأَيِّدْهُ بِٱلنَّصْرِ
wa ayyid-hu bilnnasri
Aid him with victory.

وَٱنْصُرْ نَاصِرِيهِ
wansur nasirihi
Help his backers.

وَٱخْذُلْ خَاذِلِيهِ
wakhdhul khadhilihi
Frustrate those who intend to disappoint him.

وَٱقْصِمْ قَاصِمِيهِ
waqsim qasimihi
Terminate those who intend to eradicate him.

وَٱقْصِمْ بِهِ جَبَابِرَةَ ٱلْكُفْرِ
waqsim bihi jababirata alkufri
And, through him, terminate the tyrants of unbelief,

وَٱقْتُلْ بِهِ ٱلْكُفَّارَ وَٱلْمُنَافِقِينَ
waqtul bihi alkuffara walmunafiqina
kill the disbelievers, the hypocrites,

وَجَمِيعَ ٱلْمُلْحِدِينَ
wa jami`a almulhidina
and all atheists,

حَيْثُ كَانُوٱ مِنْ مَشَارِقِ ٱلأَرْضِ وَمَغَارِبِهَا
haythu kanu min mashariqi al-ardi wa magharibiha
wherever they are; in the east or the west of the earth

بَرِّهَا وَبَحْرِهَا
barriha wa bahriha
on the lands or in the oceans,

وَٱمْلَأْ بِهِ ٱلأَرْضَ عَدْلاً
wamla' bihi al-arda `adlan
and, through him, fill in the earth with justice,

وَأَظْهِرْ بِهِ دِينَ نَبِيِّكَ
wa azhir bihi dina nabiyyika
manifest the religion of Your Prophet,

صَلَّىٰ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ
salla allahu `alayhi wa alihi wa sallama
blessings and peace of You be upon him and his Household,

وَٱجْعَلْنِي ٱللَّهُمَّ مِنْ أَنْصَارِهِ وَأَعْوَانِهِ
waj`alni allahumma min ansarihi wa a`wanihi
make me, O Allah, of his supporters, helpers,

وَأَتْبَاعِهِ وَشِيعَتِهِ
wa atba`ihi wa shi`atihi
followers, and adherents;

وَأَرِنِي فِي آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَلَيْهِمُ ٱلسَّلاَمُ مَا يَأْمُلُونَ
wa arini fi ali muhammadin `alayhim alssalamu ma ya'muluna
allow me to see the hopes of the family of Muhammad, peace be upon them, come true,

وَفِي عَدُوِّهِمْ مَا يَحْذَرُونَ
wa fi `aduwwihim ma yahdharuna
and the hazards of their enemies come true.

إِلٰهَ ٱلْحَقِّ آمِينَ
ilaha alhaqqi amina
O God of Truth, respond.

يَا ذَا ٱلْجَلاَلِ وَٱلإِكْرَامِ
ya dha aljalali wal-ikrami
O Lord of Glory and Honor!

يَا أَرْحَمَ ٱلرَّاحِمِينَ
ya arhama alrrahimina
O most merciful of those who show mercy!




The following is what I want to focus on as that we might agree upon (obviously won't agree on everything in this prayer):


وَأَنْ تَمْلَأَ قَلْبِي نُورَ ٱلْيَقِينِ
wa an tamla'a qalbi nura alyaqini
and to fill in my heart with the illumination of certitude,

وَصَدْرِي نوُرَ ٱلإِيـمَانِ
wa sadri nura al-imani
my chest with the illumination of faith,

وَفِكْرِي نُورَ ٱلنِّيَّاتِ
wa fikri nura alnniyyati
my intellect with the illumination of honest intentions,

وَعَزْمِي نُورَ ٱلْعِلْمِ
wa `azmi nura al`ilmi
my determination with the illumination of knowledge,

وَقُوَّتِي نُورَ ٱلْعَمَلِ
wa quwwati nura al`amali
my strength with the illumination of work,

وَلِسَانِي نُورَ ٱلصِّدْقِ
wa lisani nura alssidqi
my tongue with the illumination of honesty,

وَدِينِي نُورَ ٱلْبَصَائِرِ مِنْ عِنْدِكَ
wa dini nura albasa'iri min `indika
my religion with the illumination of clear evidence from You,

وَبَصَرِي نُورَ ٱلضِّيَاءِ
wa basari nura alddiya'i
my sight with the illumination of brightness,

وَسَمْعِي نُورَ ٱلْحِكْمَةِ
wa sam`i nura alhikmati
my hearing with the illumination of wisdom,

وَمَوَدَّتِي نُورَ ٱلْمُوَالاَةِ لِمُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ
wa mawaddati nura almuwalati limuhammadin wa alihi
and my faculty of love with the illumination of sincere loyalty to Muhammad and his Household,



So to hearing, wisdom. Love - Welayat of Ahlulbayt (a). Strength, light of actions/work/acting. So there is a light for every feature of the human.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Imam Jaffar (a) also says:


Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,


يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ
The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,


فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ
So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,


أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ
These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

Elsewhere He said,


ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'

Also says:


The meaning of the taslim (greeting of peace) at the end of the prayer means security, that is, anyone who carries out the command of Allah and the sunnah of His Prophet out of humility to Him and showing fear, has security from the tribulations of this world and freedom from the punishment of the next world. Al-Salam (peace) is one of the names of Allah, which He entrusted to His creation so that they would make use of it in their behaviour, trusts and contracts; in confirming their companies and assemblies; and for the soundness of their social relations.

If you want to establish this salam in its proper place, and to fulfill its meaning, then fear Allah; and make your faith, your heart, and your intellect sound. Do not sully them by the injustice of acts of rebellion. Let your guardians be safe from you; do not weary, or bore or alienate them through your bad behaviour towards them, nor with your friend, nor with your enemy. If those who are close to someone are not safe from him, then those furthest from him are safest. Anyone who does not establish salam on the occasions when it should be established has no peace and no submission: he is a liar in his salam, even if he uses it as a form of greeting among people.

Know that man's existence lies between trials and afflictions in this world. Allah may test him with blessings, to see his thankfulness, or with hardship, to see if he will show steadfastness and nobility by obeying Him, or disgrace in rebelling against Him, although there is no way to reach His good pleasure and mercy except through His grace. The only means to obey Him is when he grants success: none can intercede with Him except with His permission and mercy.

My (Link's) comment: So we see even peace and security is light from God. And we need it to interact with each other.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Those of the light go to the light, and those of the dark go to the dark.
John 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

What is the "light"?
In this case light is something that reveals. And I think it means the truth.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
In this case light is something that reveals. And I think it means the truth.
And what is the "truth". Is it the message of the "devil"/"enemy", which was planted next the good seed (Mt 13:25), or is it the "message" of the son of man, which was nailed to the cross according to the "message" of the "devil" (Matthew 13). Do the "many" of Matthew 7:12 accept the "message" of the "son of man" or do they accept the message of the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:15). Is the "message" of the "enemy"/"devil" protected against being pulled up (Matthew 13:28-29) until the "end of the age", and if so, when does that happen.

Matthew 13:
28“And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29“But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I believe God is light and that he is the light of every light.

Now creation is not a unity like God, so these things come in separate dimensions, some we know of, some we don't.

The following is from a prayer after Ziyarat Auli-Yasin as taught by the 12th Imam (a):
As the Koran states that the book of the people/Jews, the OT, and the NT is from Allah and is true, and according to Isa son of Mariam (Yeshua), the world is ruled by the devil, then who is ruling the world. Is it ruled by way of light or darkness? According to Yeshua, who according to the Koran, is the only prophet given a proper name in the Koran, it is the "many" who are deceived by the "false prophets". Being as the "Christians" (approximately 2 billion), and the Muslims (around 2 billion), represent a majority, the "many" (Mt 7:12), both following self-proclaimed prophets, how is it that they are in the light, whereas the message of Yeshua was given in parables, so only that those with eyes to see could understand, such that they would have the eyes to see, with regard to any light projected. With respect to the Daniel of the OT, the "wicked" will not "understand". Wicked and committing wickedness are synonymous (Matthew 13:41 & 49), and according to John of the NT, sinning is transgressing the Law that God/Allah gave to the people/Jews. According to the Word of God, via the OT, those that multiply words, such as in your prayer, make sin unavoidable. (Proverbs 10:19)

Proverbs 10:19 When there are many words, wrongdoing is unavoidable, but one who restrains his lips is wise
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In this case light is something that reveals. And I think it means the truth.

When it comes to claims of 'truth' the fallible human perspective makes many diverse and conflicting claims. This makes variable subjective claims of truth a more than a bit nebulous
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In this case I think it means that it is shown how things really are.
"Things" require objective evidence. In this case science takes the cake with objective verifiable evidence and science does not claim to have the truth.

The problem with subjective religious claims of truth is there are to many diverse and conflicting claims of "Truth" that for anyone to be a reliable claim. What is the objective basis for choosing one over all the others?

The more emphatically one claims to know the absolute truth the more likely they are wrong.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
In this case light is something that reveals. And I think it means the truth.
The dilemma is that "truth" isn't what many believers think it is. To them it is false and untrue ideas that they end up believing due to social influence. These are ideas they learned as they developed and never had to reason through to a sound conclusion.

I dont think all religious dogmas are untrue, many have a symbolic meaning or purpose for the believer. However the literalist beliefs run risk of being largely irrational and even hostile to fact and reason, and to my mind that is the darkness that believers don't understand. Most religions don't directly address the attraction to dogma and the harm it caauses because they were formed at a time when human psychology wasn't undestood. Early human civilization was largely trial and error, and they sought any social habits that could maintain order. Religions were crude forms of social contract.

To my mind light and darl are simple metaphors, for good and bad. The Star Wars franchise used it. Most every religion uses it in some way. It becomes a matter of whether individuals have the intelligence and natural wisdom to understand good from bad, and often the more confident the believer the less they understand. There's a reason why religious extremists are seen as on the dark side, yet they believe they are absorbed in the light. What has failed in these people? I see it as fundamental flaws in their personality, and/or emotional needs, and/or just bad luck in time and place and were indoctrinated.

Ideally humans should be able to discern good from bad, and be able to aplpy it responsibly. But as we observe many can't, or won't, and that is due to how the human brain and our social habits evolved.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Those of the light go to the light, and those of the dark go to the dark.
In reality, there isn't really any such thing as "dark", it's just an abstract term we use to refer to there being relatively little or no (visible) light. Physically and psychologically though, we need both "light" and "dark", with too much or too little of either generally not being very good for us.

I think that gives the metaphor in an interesting context. :cool:
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In this case science takes the cake with objective verifiable evidence and science does not claim to have the truth.

When you say "science does not claim to have the truth", does "truth" here mean "a full and complete understanding of reality"? Surely objective verifiable evidence constitutes a set of truths.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
When you say "science does not claim to have the truth", does "truth" here mean "a full and complete understanding of reality"? Surely objective verifiable evidence constitutes a set of truths.
No, academic history does not claim to know "a full and complete understanding of reality." The knowledge" of academic history and science is always subject to change based on new discoveries and research. NO, there is no such thing as a "set of truths" in academic history and science, though the beliefs in ancient tribal religions are riddled with claims of absolute truths, and the refusal to change in response to the advancing knowledge of academic history and science. The usual strategy is to selectively pick and choose some evidence out of context to justify their "Truth."

The more emphatically one claims to know the absolute truth the more likely they are wrong.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As the Koran states that the book of the people/Jews, the OT, and the NT is from Allah and is true, and according to Isa son of Mariam (Yeshua), the world is ruled by the devil, then who is ruling the world. Is it ruled by way of light or darkness? According to Yeshua, who according to the Koran, is the only prophet given a proper name in the Koran, it is the "many" who are deceived by the "false prophets". Being as the "Christians" (approximately 2 billion), and the Muslims (around 2 billion), represent a majority, the "many" (Mt 7:12), both following self-proclaimed prophets, how is it that they are in the light, whereas the message of Yeshua was given in parables, so only that those with eyes to see could understand, such that they would have the eyes to see, with regard to any light projected. With respect to the Daniel of the OT, the "wicked" will not "understand". Wicked and committing wickedness are synonymous (Matthew 13:41 & 49), and according to John of the NT, sinning is transgressing the Law that God/Allah gave to the people/Jews. According to the Word of God, via the OT, those that multiply words, such as in your prayer, make sin unavoidable. (Proverbs 10:19)

Proverbs 10:19 When there are many words, wrongdoing is unavoidable, but one who restrains his lips is wise
Hardly any theist clinging to ancient tribal religions as absolutely true restrains their lips except in a cloistered monastery. In fact your posts and those of @Link tend to be rather long and rambling.
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ideally humans should be able to discern good from bad, and be able to aplpy it responsibly. But as we observe many can't, or won't, and that is due to how the human brain and our social habits evolved.

I would say that ideally, humans come to understand that there is no universal and external standard by which the concept of good and bad can be measured, that each of us is unique, a product of our specific biology and unique set of experiences, resulting in differing needs, wants, and subjective values. What constitutes good, bad, and neutral then, is derived collectively through negotiation and compromise to reconcile and accommodate our differing needs, wants, and subjective values as fairly as possible.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The knowledge" of academic history and science is always subject to change based on new discoveries and research.

So, that I made a post on this forum and you responded to it cannot be said to be true? Is this event vulnerable to new discoveries and research?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Those of the light go to the light, and those of the dark go to the dark.
John 3:20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

What is the "light"? Is it the Word of God, the Law and the prophets, who will return to rule the nations/Gentiles with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15)? Is it the encapsulated in the Commandments as the way to enter into life (Mt 19:17-18). Are the Progressives who lust after someone else's wife or some else's ox or ***, or his house/goods, or willing to make false witnesses against their neighbor, and steal whatever he can get away with, willing to abide with in the Law? If one actually believes in the "Word", the Law and the prophets, are they able to be swayed toward lawlessness. Apparently, even the "elect" can be deceived (Mt 24:14), but to regain their health, escape the "plagues" of "her", the daughters of Babylon, they will have to "come out of her" (Revelation 18:4). No one dies for the iniquities of another (Jeremiah 31:30). Making sacrifice of a son of man, nor of an unblemished sheep, does not heals one, nor does it make them whole and become healthy. If you don't believe that, go to your local hospital and or morgue. "Every one dies for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). Everyone will die. It is best to believe in the message of the son of man, and keep the Law, and forgo the "message" of the "enemy"/"devil" (Matthew 13:25), which are both planted in the same "field" (NT).

Matthew 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
The shadows of the morn are illumined in the evening
It is only those that claim to know the "truth"
hide in the darkness of the night from discerning.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So, that I made a post on this forum and you responded to it cannot be said to be true? Is this event vulnerable to new discoveries and research?
At present I do not recall which event you claimed to be true. If I said that it cannot be "said" to be true, that does not mean it is not possibly is true, depending on further confirmation.

It depends on the 'event' claimed to be 'true.' The fallible human judgement of observation is always open to independent confirmation even in a court of law. The older the event or the ability to confirm the observation makes claims of observation conditional based on independent confirmation. Claims of observing UFOs is an example.
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
At present I do not recall which event you claimed to be true.

Hum. I am curious now to see, should you respond to this post, if you will be able to recall having responded.

It depends on the 'event' claimed to be 'true.' The fallible human judgement of observation is always open to independent confirmation even in a court of law. The older the event or the ability to confirm the observation ,akes claims of observation conditional based on independent confirmation. Claims of observing UFOs is an example.

Ok, great. I agree.

Is it ever possible to independently confirm an event or the existence of a phenomenon and consequently consider the event or phenomenon true?

For example, would you considered my assertion that the planet Earth is an existent phenomenon in the Cosmos to be true? Is my assertion objectively verifiable?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Hum. I am curious now to see, should you respond to this post, if you will be able to recall having responded.
Awaiting a coherent response of the previous post. My response in post #13 is very relevant concerning the view of academic science and history.
Is it ever possible to independently confirm an event or the existence of a phenomenon and consequently consider the event or phenomenon true?

Yes, but a word of caution on what "may" be considered true and the claims of "truth." You may need to clarify how you are addressing these two different concepts. The existence of a "phenomenon?" is a little vague and need clarification concerning what may be considered true.
For example, would you considered my assertion that the planet Earth is an existent phenomenon in the Cosmos to be true? Is my assertion objectively verifiable?

Yes, something being "true" is different that claiming "truth." Clarification needed. Careful getting too esoteric and vague as to what we may consider as true referring to objects like the earth that obviously physically exist as true.

Your posts are wandering a bit around the mulberry bush and back again.

Awaiting your coherent response.
 
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