Differences-2

[Merlin]

in the general debate under the Differences thread, we have had a really nice polite contributor confirming that his sect of the Christian religion (LDS) believes that without certain rituals performed by priests of his sect, people cannot be fully admitted to heaven.

I personally do not challenge that belief. I cannot, because nobody knows. They have as much right to claim that as any other group. The question I would ask is would any other member of any other religion or sect be prepared to confirm that they also honestly believe that only members of their denomination or religion can be properly saved.

It would be really interesting to know how many religions or sub-religions entertain the same belief.

 

[jonny]

I think it would also be helpful if everyone included their definition of "saved" with their response. The LDS believe that almost everyone will receive a portion of God's glory because we don't believe in Hell the same way that many Christians do.

 

[Merlin]

I think it would also be helpful if everyone included their definition of "saved" with their response. The LDS believe that almost everyone will receive a portion of God's glory because we don't believe in Hell the same way that many Christians do.

Good idea Jonny. Maybe you could kick it off by giving us your LDS definition of 'Saved'.

 

[Merlin]

in the general debate under the Differences thread, we have had a really nice polite contributor confirming that his sect of the Christian religion (LDS) believes that without certain rituals performed by priests of his sect, people cannot be fully admitted to heaven.

I personally do not challenge that belief. I cannot, because nobody knows. They have as much right to claim that as any other group. The question I would ask is would any other member of any other religion or sect be prepared to confirm that they also honestly believe that only members of their denomination or religion can be properly saved.

It would be really interesting to know how many religions or sub-religions entertain the same belief.

WE all know that RC, JW, LDS and Moslem all believe sincerely that people need to be of their faith to enter heaven. It is a reasonable belief. I wanted to have a quiet rational discussion about the authority for these beliefs. Any views?

 

[Scott1]

WE all know that RC, JW, LDS and Moslem all believe sincerely that people need to be of their faith to enter heaven. It is a reasonable belief. I wanted to have a quiet rational discussion about the authority for these beliefs. Any views?

If by RC you mean Roman Catholic, you are misinformed.

 

[Aqualung]

WE all know that RC, JW, LDS and Moslem all believe sincerely that people need to be of their faith to enter heaven. It is a reasonable belief. I wanted to have a quiet rational discussion about the authority for these beliefs. Any views?

If by LDS you mean latter day saints, you are misinformed.

 

[dan]

Anyone who lives up to their beliefs as far as they have learned them will be saved. This is LDS doctrine. All God requires is that you live up to the light you've been provided with. If you have been offered greater light and have refused it then you have a problem. Mother Teresa is more saved than most LDS folks, so to say we believe that only mormons can be saved is a fallacy. The ordinances that make salvation possible will be performed for all who need them, regardless of their membership in the church. The church does, however, paint a difference between justification (saved) and sanctification.

 

[blueman]

The LDS belief system originated in the 19th century and philosophically differs in a material way from 1st century christianity and the origin of the church as a result of Jesus's life, ministry, death and resurrection. Both ancient and modern christianity do not differ in the basic foundation of salvation, which fudamentally is as follows:

- You cannot enter heaven based on good works or morality. Meaning, no matter how good our works are or how good we perceive them to be, we will never meet the standards of rightiousness associated with God Almighty. Romans 3:23 tells us as much when it states "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and Ephesians 2:8,9 states that For by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

- Salvation and righteousness comes through redemption, not works. Redemption is through Jesus and not through man (i.e., priests, pastors, spiritual advisors and the like). Jesus stated that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6). Romans 10:9,10 provide the basic foundation for salvation and that is through Jesus Christ.

"God gives us free will to accept or reject His purpose for our lives"

WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET

 

[dan]

The LDS belief system originated in the 19th century and philosophically differs in a material way from 1st century christianity and the origin of the church as a result of Jesus's life, ministry, death and resurrection. Both ancient and modern christianity do not differ in the basic foundation of salvation, which fudamentally is as follows:

- You cannot enter heaven based on good works or morality. Meaning, no matter how good our works are or how good we perceive them to be, we will never meet the standards of rightiousness associated with God Almighty. Romans 3:23 tells us as much when it states "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and Ephesians 2:8,9 states that For by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

- Salvation and righteousness comes through redemption, not works. Redemption is through Jesus and not through man (i.e., priests, pastors, spiritual advisors and the like). Jesus stated that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me. (John 14:6). Romans 10:9,10 provide the basic foundation for salvation and that is through Jesus Christ.

"God gives us free will to accept or reject His purpose for our lives"

WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET

So what role do good works have in the faith that makes you eligible for salvation?

 

[Darkdale]

WE all know that RC, JW, LDS and Moslem all believe sincerely that people need to be of their faith to enter heaven. It is a reasonable belief.

I don't think it is that rational a belief.

 

[Aqualung]

I don't think it is that rational a belief.

Nope. And as scott spoke for the RC, and I spoke for the LDS, it's not something we beleive in the first place! :sarcastic strange . . .

 

[jonny]

I think it would also be helpful if everyone included their definition of "saved" with their response. The LDS believe that almost everyone will receive a portion of God's glory because we don't believe in Hell the same way that many Christians do.

We don't really use the term "saved" too much in the LDS church. Using the definition of that term that most Christians are familiar with, LDS members believe that almost everyone will be saved because everyone will eventually return to live with God and recieve some degree of his glory.

On the other hand, while we believe that everyone will be saved, we do not believe that everyone will be exalted. In the Bible we learn that there are "many mansions" (John 14:2).

Exaltation is also called eternal life in LDS scripture. In D&C 132:23-24 we learn a little about eternal life and exaltation - "But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. This is eternal lives - to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law."

The emphasis of families in the LDS church also comes from the doctrine of exaltation. We believe that eternal marriage is a necessary ordinance in order to receive exaltation and that families who receive this ordinance and endure to the end will remain a family in the next life. Understanding that we believe that this ordinance is a pre-requisite to entrance into the highest kingdom of God helps explain why the church places so much emphasis on authority. First, I know of no other church that has an ordinance that seals families for eternity. In order to be sealed in the temple, partners must be baptised, confirmed, and endowed in the LDS church. Men must be ordained to the Melchedidek Priesthood.

Anyway, I'm sure this might bring up some more questions, but I wanted to clarify the difference between "saved" and "exalted" in the LDS church.

If you have questions about the LDS plan of salvation, I recommend posting them in this thread that I started the other day: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20653

 

[Merlin]

If by RC you mean Roman Catholic, you are misinformed.

I am not Roman Catholic, but have studied with them for several months. I also am quite a good friend of a Catholic monk who lives in a nearby monastry. Catholics certainly believe that only they go to heaven. It is based on their belief that the Pope is a direct spiritual descendant of St Peter, who in turn was ordained by Jesus.

I do not challenge that view, just state it for the record.

 

[Merlin]

We don't really use the term "saved" too much in the LDS church. Using the definition of that term that most Christians are familiar with, LDS members believe that almost everyone will be saved because everyone will eventually return to live with God and recieve some degree of his glory.

On the other hand, while we believe that everyone will be saved, we do not believe that everyone will be exalted. In the Bible we learn that there are "many mansions" (John 14:2).

Exaltation is also called eternal life in LDS scripture. In D&C 132:23-24 we learn a little about eternal life and exaltation - "But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. This is eternal lives - to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law."

The emphasis of families in the LDS church also comes from the doctrine of exaltation. We believe that eternal marriage is a necessary ordinance in order to receive exaltation and that families who receive this ordinance and endure to the end will remain a family in the next life. Understanding that we believe that this ordinance is a pre-requisite to entrance into the highest kingdom of God helps explain why the church places so much emphasis on authority. First, I know of no other church that has an ordinance that seals families for eternity. In order to be sealed in the temple, partners must be baptised, confirmed, and endowed in the LDS church. Men must be ordained to the Melchedidek Priesthood.

Anyway, I'm sure this might bring up some more questions, but I wanted to clarify the difference between "saved" and "exalted" in the LDS church.

If you have questions about the LDS plan of salvation, I recommend posting them in this thread that I started the other day: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20653

do you not think that the reference to 'many mansions" (John 14:2)is more likely to suggest that there are places in heaven for Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Jesus was saying that as the first member of the new Christian religion, he was going to prepare a place for that religious subgroup.

 

[Merlin]

If by LDS you mean latter day saints, you are misinformed.

sorry, maybe I express myself badly. In my discussions with Mormons, they do kindly make clear that without one of their priests laying on hands and performing a set ritual, I cannot achieve full salvation (that is my expression not theirs).

I was trying to open a discussion on the basis that several religious groups have this claim to ultimate superiority. It was just a quiet opportunity for all of us to examine the basis for these beliefs without any acrimony, just rational debate.

 

[Merlin]

"God gives us free will to accept or reject His purpose for our lives"

WWW.LIFE-CHOICE.NET

May God give us :-

the patience to wait for his purpose to be revealed,
the wisdom to recognise his call
the strength to carry out his task

Amen

 

[James the Persian]

I am not Roman Catholic, but have studied with them for several months. I also am quite a good friend of a Catholic monk who lives in a nearby monastry. Catholics certainly believe that only they go to heaven. It is based on their belief that the Pope is a direct spiritual descendant of St Peter, who in turn was ordained by Jesus.

I do not challenge that view, just state it for the record.

You are certainly misinformed. Roman Catholicism teaches, as does the Orthodox Church, that salvation is found in the Church but that we do not know where salvation is found outside of her. Neither Orthodox nor RCs presume to judge the state of a man's soul or to limit God to saving only those who are formal members of the Church. In other words, we know that you can be saved if you are in the Church but we do not know who can be saved outside of Her. Another aspect of the same idea is that more is expected of those who receive more. Hence, in our view, the Orthodox Christian will be held to a higher standard than that of the heterodox or non-Christian. So far as I know this is precisely the same belief as that of the RCs (discounting the aspect of where the Church, in fact, is).

James

 

[Merlin]

You are certainly misinformed. Roman Catholicism teaches, as does the Orthodox Church, that salvation is found in the Church but that we do not know where salvation is found outside of her. Neither Orthodox nor RCs presume to judge the state of a man's soul or to limit God to saving only those who are formal members of the Church. In other words, we know that you can be saved if you are in the Church but we do not know who can be saved outside of Her. Another aspect of the same idea is that more is expected of those who receive more. Hence, in our view, the Orthodox Christian will be held to a higher standard than that of the heterodox or non-Christian. So far as I know this is precisely the same belief as that of the RCs (discounting the aspect of where the Church, in fact, is).

James

if Roman Catholic priests teach that salvation is found in the Roman Catholic Church, and that they do not know where else it can be found, then by implication they are suggesting that nowhere else can it be found. Obviously they know about other Christian sects, and other religions, therefore they must have rejected those as possibly offering salvation(because they know about them and yet do not know if they offer anything).

 

[James the Persian]

if Roman Catholic priests teach that salvation is found in the Roman Catholic Church, and that they do not know where else it can be found, then by implication they are suggesting that nowhere else can it be found. Obviously they know about other Christian sects, and other religions, therefore they must have rejected those as possibly offering salvation(because they know about them and yet do not know if they offer anything).

No, that's not true. You fail to understand the importance of Catholic (by which I mean both Orthodox and Roman) ecclesiology. Nobody is saved except by God's grace. We know that God's grace is present in the Church. We do not know where else it is present. God can bestow His grace on whoever and wherever He wants. This does not mean that we have rejected other Christian groups as offering any possibility of salvation, just that we have rejected them as being a part of the Church. It is possible even for someone outside of the Church to be saved (though we have no idea of knowing who that may be) but it is better, salvation is more secure, if one enters the Church. The point is that it is God, not a set of religious doctrines, who offers salvation. It is possible to be in the Church and not be faithful to God, and hence not attain salvation and it is equally possible to be faithful to God whilst being deluded by heterodox, or even heretical, teachings, and therefore still be saved. Of course, Roman Catholic soteriology is rather different from ours so I'll not go into what is meant by salvation, but the ecclesiological aspects of this are identical as far as I can see, for both our churches. I'm sure an RC will chip in and correct me if I've misunderstood their position.

James

 

[Aqualung]

sorry, maybe I express myself badly. In my discussions with Mormons, they do kindly make clear that without one of their priests laying on hands and performing a set ritual, I cannot achieve full salvation (that is my expression not theirs).

I was trying to open a discussion on the basis that several religious groups have this claim to ultimate superiority. It was just a quiet opportunity for all of us to examine the basis for these beliefs without any acrimony, just rational debate.

Once again, you are misinformed. Salvation, as jonny tried to point out, is not found only within the church. That would be rediculous. That would mean that anybody who was born in, say, africa in 1700s would go to hell, because the church wasn't around then and there. To say that we beleive that perosn will go to hell is to distort the facts completely. To say that you have to be a member of the church and follow certain ordinances (such as being baptised, being endowed, being sealed for time and eternity to your spouse) are necessary for exaltation in the highet degree is correct. But if you never even hear of the church, but still live a good life, you will certainly be saved, and resurected into a degree of glory unlike anything here on earth, and unlike anything you could ever imagine.