Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[jamesmorrow]

Exactly, at no point in time did God exist...but God did exist at a point. The point doesn't have to be related to time, in time, temporal, or what have you. It isn't until the point changes or begins to change that the "state of existence" enters time.

i find it ironic how you use descriptions of time to describe the existence of something BEFORE the existence of time.....you claim that god sat BEFORE he moved, yet simultaneously deny the existence of BEFORE.

 

[jamesmorrow]

That's why it's a "miracle."

thats why its a MIRACLE?........not a MYSTERY?????? post 776...

 

[jamesmorrow]

First of all, I never said that "Jesus is 100% limited but also 100% unlimited." I said that Jesus is fully God and fully human.
Second, I never claimed the Incarnation to be a "miracle." I said it was a mystery, and I said it was a metaphor -- neither of which is a "miracle."

If you're gonna dis me, you can at least quote me correctly.

oops, better check your own words before claming not to have typed them.

 

[Thief]

Mm, possibly.
But either or, it is his fault. We are only rats in the maze. God built the maze, and raised the rats.

Well if it IS His fault....
then it does stand to reason He would do something about it.
and then sending His Son to die for us becomes a valid argument.

I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

[sojourner]

thats why its a MIRACLE?........not a MYSTERY?????? post 776...

the miracle was walking on the water. The mystery is God becoming Incarnate. The two are completely different things.

OOPS!!! Your bad!

 

[sojourner]

oops, better check your own words before claming not to have typed them.

Already double checked. You're confused.:areyoucra

 

[filthy tugboat]

This is just completely FALSE. Are you having that much difficulty answering objections that you keep denying basic elementary stuff. I mean, cmon now. You obviously dont know the difference between order and disorder if you think randomly tossed cards in the air is an example of order. In fact, just by being "randomly" tossed in the air makes it disorderly.

How are you defining order/disorder? It looks like you are defining it subjectively as in, "I can't predict the order these cards will land in, therefore it is disorderly." Objectively, the cards being thrown in the air is following a strict order that is determined by prior factors and if done again exactly the same would land in the exact same order.

Then, as I read everything else you typed, you are down playing the significance of life permitting/prohibiting universes, which is crazy, because these two concepts are scientific FACTS.

You have never demonstrated the significance of life permitting/prohibiting universe, you have assumed it, something I challenged the moment you tried to present it. If you cannot demonstrate that significance then retract the claim, stop assuming that life permitting/prohibiting universes somehow contribute to the probability in an objective way.

If you look at it without attributing a subjective label that is irrelevant to the universe, this universe is no more or less likely than any other, which makes the argument from design an ineffectual argument.

 

[F0uad]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

Yes, I know I will get a lot of comments saying "Jesus is no man! He is God!" Well, technically isn't he a demigod? Half man half God? And even if you don't consider him to be, it just made people suffer from sadness, especially Mary the mother of Jesus.

There are 4 Major problems in believing a human who had no sins should be ''sacrificed'' for the others.


Number 1. It contradicts the laws that God<<Jesus(p) made and Jesus(p) upholded according to the scriptures.

Number 2. Its unjust to punish a innocent man for the sins of others.

Number 3. The biblical scriptures (NT and OT) clearly says that each sinner should get punished for hes own sin (every-one is accountable for hes/her deeds) so therefore Jesus(p) could have never taken away your sins.

Number 4. The Death itself contradicts the bible because the scriptures also clearly says if Man dies once he stays dead and he will become ''Spirit'' so Jesus(p) as man could never have died and come back to live according to hes own words, only god could have died. But saying God died is blaspheming even according to Christian teaching.


So the Text is in disagreement over and over with this teaching, and you make a valid point by raising the question can't god just forgive you if he wants: The Answer is YES he can and he will ''if you repent and ask forgiveness'' like in The Torah, Bible and Quran is told.

 

[jamesmorrow]

the miracle was walking on the water. The mystery is God becoming Incarnate. The two are completely different things.

OOPS!!! Your bad!

you're a slippery litte bugger arent you..... so tell me why is walking on water not a mystery and incarnation not a miracle? and why is jesus limited by physics when it comes to suffering pain, yet not limited by physics when it comes to walking on water? give me a reason other than convenience or "its a miracle"

 

[FearGod]

you're a slippery litte bugger arent you..... so tell me why is walking on water not a mystery and incarnation not a miracle? and why is jesus limited by physics when it comes to suffering pain, yet not limited by physics when it comes to walking on water? give me a reason other than convenience or "its a miracle"

i wonder what his reply will be now
maybe as usual,i didnt say so and so

 

[jamesmorrow]

i wonder what his reply will be now
maybe as usual,i didnt say so and so

at least he tries to save face. we gotta give him that...A+ for slippery buggerism.

 

[sojourner]

you're a slippery litte bugger arent you..... so tell me why is walking on water not a mystery and incarnation not a miracle? and why is jesus limited by physics when it comes to suffering pain, yet not limited by physics when it comes to walking on water? give me a reason other than convenience or "its a miracle"

Just trying to be theologically and scholastically honest. Miracles usually denote actions by a person that are outside the norm of human experience, (such as walking on water or turning water to wine). Mystery denotes a theological truth that we just can't explain, (such as Jesus being both fully human and fully Divine, or Jesus being fully present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist). I don't know how miracles happen. I've never sought to explain them. I've also never insisted that the miracles presented in the Gospels were actual, historical events.

 

[sojourner]

i wonder what his reply will be now
maybe as usual,i didnt say so and so

If you don't want me to say that, then you need to be more precise in assigning quotes to me that I never made. It's slipshod and irresponsible. And just bad form.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Just trying to be theologically and scholastically honest. Miracles usually denote actions by a person that are outside the norm of human experience, (such as walking on water or turning water to wine). Mystery denotes a theological truth that we just can't explain, (such as Jesus being both fully human and fully Divine, or Jesus being fully present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist). I don't know how miracles happen. I've never sought to explain them. I've also never insisted that the miracles presented in the Gospels were actual, historical events.

here is what gets me. you label a logical impossibility(I.E. the coexistence of two opposing absolutes), TRUTH....despite the fact that you are fully aware its even conceptually impossible. i dont know whether its plain stupidity, ignorance, a mental disorder, intellectual dishonesty, religious indoctrination or perhaps a lethal combination of all of the above, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

an iron can't simultaneously be burning hot and freezing cold. its impossible... not a mystery that we cant explain, but an impossibility we understand and have the knowledge to explain is not possible.... to label it a mystery instead is to distort reality in desperation to sustain your nonsensical belief in unrealistic imaginary fairy tales.

 

[sojourner]

here is what gets me. you label a logical impossibility(I.E. the coexistence of two opposing absolutes), TRUTH....despite the fact that you are fully aware its even conceptually impossible. i dont know whether its plain stupidity, ignorance, a mental disorder, intellectual dishonesty, religious indoctrination or perhaps a lethal combination of all of the above, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

an iron can't simultaneously be burning hot and freezing cold. its impossible... not a mystery that we cant explain, but an impossibility we understand and have the knowledge to explain is not possible.... to label it a mystery instead is to distort reality in desperation to sustain your nonsensical belief in unrealistic imaginary fairy tales.

Are they? Are humanity and Divinity "opposing absolutes?" How do you know? How do you know Jesus isn't the nexus of the two? How can you be so sure that it's impossible to be fully both? If it were "conceptually impossible," no one would have conceived of it, right? Why is the Trinity dependent upon an iron? What knowledge do you have that explains "it's not possible?" Or perhaps you have some secret knowledge of God (and humanity) that no one else has? To label it a mystery is to acknowledge that I don't know all about it, and that I don't have enough hubris to claim that I have all the answers.

Why does God have to be encapsulated in a particularity?

 

[jamesmorrow]

Are they? Are humanity and Divinity "opposing absolutes?" How do you know? How do you know Jesus isn't the nexus of the two? How can you be so sure that it's impossible to be fully both? If it were "conceptually impossible," no one would have conceived of it, right? Why is the Trinity dependent upon an iron? What knowledge do you have that explains "it's not possible?" Or perhaps you have some secret knowledge of God (and humanity) that no one else has? To label it a mystery is to acknowledge that I don't know all about it, and that I don't have enough hubris to claim that I have all the answers.

Why does God have to be encapsulated in a particularity?

either jesus was limited by the laws of nature, or he was unlimited by the laws of nature.....if jesus was only PARTIALLY limited by the laws of nature, then he was a HALF/PART/DEMI GOD.....much like the fictional character hercules........ in this case you can make the claim that jesus was limited by physical pain and death, yet not limited by gravity and other things....

but you are not saying that, are you??? you are saying that jesus was simultaneously fully HUMAN(100% LIMITED) NATURAL and fully GOD(100% UNLIMITED) SUPERNATURAL........which is the illogical contradictory nonsense of two opposing absolutes, who's absolute qualities do not allow for coexistence.

now, you can continue your adolescent act and continue being difficult, but it wont change reality one bit. an iron cant be burning hot and freezing cold at the same time. its not a mysterious fact of life we dont have the answer to, its a self refuting concept of your imagination that does not represent reality

 

[sojourner]

either jesus was limited by the laws of nature, or he was unlimited by the laws of nature.....if jesus was only PARTIALLY limited by the laws of nature, then he was a HALF/PART/DEMI GOD.....much like the fictional character hercules........ in this case you can make the claim that jesus was limited by physical pain and death, yet not limited by gravity and other things....

but you are not saying that, are you??? you are saying that jesus was simultaneously fully HUMAN(100% LIMITED) NATURAL and fully GOD(100% UNLIMITED) SUPERNATURAL........which is the illogical contradictory nonsense of two opposing absolutes, who's absolute qualities do not allow for coexistence.

now, you can continue your adolescent act and continue being difficult, but it wont change reality one bit. an iron cant be burning hot and freezing cold at the same time. its not a mysterious fact of life we dont have the answer to, its a self refuting concept of your imagination that does not represent reality

First of all, an iron isn't God, so we can throw that comparison out the window -- hopefully not above someone's Porsche...

Thing is, God is not 100% unlimited. This is your argument, your entire reasoning depends upon it -- and it's patently false. God is not "supernatural." In fact, God is eminently natural. God is immanent to us through the natural order.

Additionally, we're told in the bible that, though Jesus was God, he didn't consider Divinity a thing to be exploited, and so he humbled himself -- and being found in human form, became obedient to the point of death.

I don't know why or how miracles occur. But I know that they do. I've witnessed them -- by 100% human beings. Your argument does not work because things are not so absolute as you wish them to be.

 

[Thief]

First of all, an iron isn't God, so we can throw that comparison out the window -- hopefully not above someone's Porsche...

Thing is, God is not 100% unlimited. This is your argument, your entire reasoning depends upon it -- and it's patently false. God is not "supernatural." In fact, God is eminently natural. God is immanent to us through the natural order.

Additionally, we're told in the bible that, though Jesus was God, he didn't consider Divinity a thing to be exploited, and so he humbled himself -- and being found in human form, became obedient to the point of death.

I don't know why or how miracles occur. But I know that they do. I've witnessed them -- by 100% human beings. Your argument does not work because things are not so absolute as you wish them to be.

Here you are really getting wishy washy.

God is either able to alter things as they go by.....or He is not able.
That's what marks an event as a miracle.
It doesn't fit the 'natural scheme of things.

Walking on water...raising the dead....feeding thousands at a moment's notice....healing people at touch or distance....

If He is bound by the natural things He made....he boxed Himself into a corner.
He will be able to change the course of things, if that redirection requires more than policy or money, and the cooperation of your 'higher ups'.

In any case...Jesus didn't die for you....and your sins are your own.

 

[jamesmorrow]

First of all, an iron isn't God, so we can throw that comparison out the window -- hopefully not above someone's Porsche...

Thing is, God is not 100% unlimited. This is your argument, your entire reasoning depends upon it -- and it's patently false. God is not "supernatural." In fact, God is eminently natural. God is immanent to us through the natural order.

Additionally, we're told in the bible that, though Jesus was God, he didn't consider Divinity a thing to be exploited, and so he humbled himself -- and being found in human form, became obedient to the point of death.

I don't know why or how miracles occur. But I know that they do. I've witnessed them -- by 100% human beings. Your argument does not work because things are not so absolute as you wish them to be.

of course. god is not comparable to an iron, because that analogy is just too easy to understand, and we wouldnt wanna have that. we wanna fight tooth and nail to keep the illusion of mystery alive...but of course we wont explain how its a flawed comparison, or provide a better one to replace it in order to provide a better understanding of god, because we know of none that makes sense of our nonsense


you must be the first christian i have run across who claims that god is not supernatural(not above the laws of nature) by redefining supernatural events, such as gravity defying water walking as natural....... im curious, how exactly does your reasoning work there.... if gravity is a natural force(a law of nature), how does breaking/defying a natural force not make a being supernatural(beyond/above/not limited by nature)???? youll have to enlighten me there

 

[sojourner]

That's what marks an event as a miracle.
It doesn't fit the 'natural scheme of things.

Yes, but especially "natural" human beings perform miracles. Maybe they're not all that "unnatural" -- just beyond our understanding.

If He is bound by the natural things He made....he boxed Himself into a corner.

I would hesitate to say "bound by the natural things God made." But, being fully human, Jesus was certainly bound by natural law, just as any other human being.