Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[Falvlun]

I agree; what God's doing is not forgiveness.

Forgiveness is typically defined as the process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.[1][2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines forgiveness as 'to grant free pardon and to give up all claim on account of an offense or debt'.

LINK

Note the part where to forgive, you give up all claim on the debt owed. In other words, there is nothing to be paid if forgiveness occurs. If you demand payment before forgiveness, then what you are doing is not forgiving.

Go to dictionary.com. Every single definition for forgive also supports this:

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

If you have forgiven something, there is nothing left to pay. And if the debt has already been payed, there is nothing to forgive.

Forgiveness is a release from the penalty; it's the erasing of debts.

Within Christian theology, what Jesus did was to pay the debt. And God accepted this payment. That is not forgiveness. That's requiring a debt to be payed in full.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And in a sense, Falvlun, in that theology it's sort of a double jeopardy:

1. Jesus 'paid for the sins in full', yet
2. God gets to judge and punish everyone

 

[waitasec]

... that theology it's sort of a double jeopardy:

1. Jesus 'paid for the sins in full', yet
2. God gets to judge and punish everyone

oops.

 

[waitasec]

I agree; what God's doing is not forgiveness.

LINK

Note the part where to forgive, you give up all claim on the debt owed. In other words, there is nothing to be paid if forgiveness occurs. If you demand payment before forgiveness, then what you are doing is not forgiving.

Go to dictionary.com. Every single definition for forgive also supports this:



If you have forgiven something, there is nothing left to pay. And if the debt has already been payed, there is nothing to forgive.

Forgiveness is a release from the penalty; it's the erasing of debts.

Within Christian theology, what Jesus did was to pay the debt. And God accepted this payment. That is not forgiveness. That's requiring a debt to be payed in full.

but gods ways are higher than our ways...
his judgement is just even though our sins were paid for
:sarcastic


______________________
great post...well done!!!

 

[Quantrill]

I do grasp it. You're simply wrong. Your scriptures don't need to be provided to show you that forgiveness as defined, isn't your God's definition.

Can you grasp that?

lol 'my type of forgiveness'

You mean 'forgiveness'

You can believe what you want. The Bible disagrees with you.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

So now you might be willing to support your previous assertion of more than one Eden?

Or maybe that's where you think I am?

Start another thread. Do a little study. Its off subject here.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You're contradicting yourself then
Why is he unable to just forgive?

He can forgive.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

But at least, as the thread plays out we are gathering a list of all the contradictions in your God hypothesis

God has no inability
Can't just forgive

God gives something to himself
Calls it 'sacrifice'

You guys basically need to redefine every single word to make God look even vaguely Good

.. or does 'Good' also have a different meaning?

No, we just learn more about God. We are not interested in making Him appear anything to you except as the Bible decalres.

Quantrill

 

[Thief]

Start another thread. Do a little study. Its off subject here.

Quantrill

You brought it up...you go study.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You can believe what you want. The Bible disagrees with you.

Quantrill

The Bible is merely a book and doesn't have an opinion

It's you who disagrees with me.

Too bad the English language defines the word in my favor, and not yours

 

[Quantrill]

Why can't God allow sin to go unjudged?

You say it as if it were so obvious that i simply had to accept it.

I could very well say this: 'God cannot cease to be God, God can allow sin to go unjudged.'

So what?

Because it is contary to His Holy nature. All sin is against God. And His nature reacts to sin in judgement only.

Yes, you can say what you like. Only it is contridictory to God as given in the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[Heathen Hammer]

No, we just learn more about God. We are not interested in making Him appear anything to you except as the Bible decalres.

Quantrill

And the bible makes him appear pretty ******

You're not 'learning' anything by pretending words mean something else. You're increasing your ignorance.

Oh wait, i guess you just redefined what 'learn' means, too :clap

You basically live in Orwell-land.

 

[Thief]

Because it is contary to His Holy nature. All sin is against God. And His nature reacts to sin in judgement only.

Yes, you can say what you like. Only it is contridictory to God as given in the Bible.

Quantrill

The item is red is incorrect.
Sin against your fellow man is only that.
Sin against the spirit...will not be forgiven.

 

[Quantrill]

You brought it up...you go study.

No, I responded to what you said. I will, and do.

Quantrill

 

[gnosisofthomas]

He didn't die for our sins... The real sacrifice of Christ was God descending into the limitations of matter to save us. He was killed because worldly rulers saw Him as a threat to their power. After the crucifixion, various different Christians tried to make sense of His death, as can be seen in early Christian writings. They came up with many different reasons as to why it happened. The belief that won out as orthodoxy was established, was that He died for our sins.

The Gnostic scriptures present an entirely different view, seeing the crucifixion largely in mythological terms, and most saw it as a necessary step to continue His mission. Jesus is sometimes presented in these scriptures as floating above the cross, laughing because the Romans think they can kill Him, when He is eternal... The Apocalypse of Peter even goes so far as to prophesy that belief in His death as a sacrifice will actually harm future generations of Christians, saying: "And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."

 

[Quantrill]

And the bible makes him appear pretty ******

You're not 'learning' anything by pretending words mean something else. You're increasing your ignorance.

Oh wait, i guess you just redefined what 'learn' means, too :clap

You basically live in Orwell-land.

We who are Christian believe the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[Thief]

No, I responded to what you said. I will, and do.

Quantrill

Nay...you mentioned two Edens....

Where did you get that idea?
And how do you apply it to the topic title?

 

[Quantrill]

The item is red is incorrect.
Sin against your fellow man is only that.
Sin against the spirit...will not be forgiven.

All sin is against God.

Quantrill

 

[Heathen Hammer]

We who are Christian believe the Bible.

Your ability to engage in actual conversation is becoming harder and harder in the face of opposition you cannot counter, I see.

Resort to blankfaced rote statements of faith.

Nothing new to see here.

 

[Thief]

All sin is against God.

Quantrill

You cannot defend that statement.