Did Charlemagne contribute more to Christianity than constantine?

[Spiderman]

I'm going to say that Charlemagne benefited Christianity more than constantine, even though Constantine was the first emperor to legalize and sanction christianity, and turn Christianity into the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The evidence is overwhelming however, that Charlemagne influenced our world far more in a way that his influence continues to this very day, far more than constantine.

Constantine turned the Roman Empire into a Christian Empire in 313, but the Roman Empire fell in 476.

Charlemagne restored the Roman Empire, was crowned" Emperor of the Romans" by the Pope in 800, creating the " Holy Roman Empire", which lasted until 1806, so the Christian Empire he founded , lasted over a thousand years, and some historians have very valid basis for saying it lasted longer, because Napoleon Bonaparte occupied the territories of the Holy Roman Empire, was crowned by the Pope like Holy Roman Emperors, and made Catholicism the official Religion of his Empire, and I have even heard that Charlemagne was who Napoleon invoked, his role model, whose footsteps Emperor Bonaparte was seeking to follow in , when he got control of Charlemagne's nation of France, and most of Europe, which hails Charlemagne as "Father of Europe".

Most of the Holy Roman Emperors were crowned by the Pope himself!

Charlemagne is a lot more influential in the European union, than any historical figure I know of, because their building in their headquarters of Belgium is called "the Charlemagne building", they give out Charlemagne prizes, medals, and awards to those who contribute to European unity, and have a Charlemagne page in their magazine

it would almost appear as if the European union is trying to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire.

Here is a map of Charlemagne's current Empire:

Okay, if Charlemagne ran it though, monastic orders and convents would flourish, abortion would be considered homicide, gay marriage would be banned, pornography censored in the media, internet, and entertainment industry, prayers would be in public schools, and it would be more difficult for Muslims, so it isn't Charlemagne's Empire, but they honor him as the Spiritual Father of the European union, almost like their patron Saint.

But Charlemagne's Holy Roman Emperors being the defenders of the Pope and Christianity for over a thousand years, and apparently inspiring the Empire of Napoleon Bonaparte, makes Charlemagne more influential on our world than Emperor Constantine.

Your thoughts?

 

[Spiderman]

Napoleon Bonaparte is considered the final Holy Roman Emperor by some historians, and he does qualify as being such. He occupied more land than Charlemagne, accomplished more ingenious military victories, but was not nearly as influential as Charlemagne.

Charlemagne didn't even know how to write, and it is questioned whether he even knew how to read, yet his spoken words were so powerful , that he became known historically as "the sponsor of medieval education".

He also was the greatest promotor of the rule of Saint Benedict that I know of, causing monastic orders to flourish to unprecedented levels, and he converted countless Pagans and Muslims to Christianity, and he turned Christianity into essentially the glue that held Europe together, a religion Europeans as a general rule had in common largely because of him!

Charlemagne's influence went far beyond his Holy Roman Empire, because he was appointed to be the greatest chief defender of the Papacy (Pope and cardinals), and the chief defender of Christianity in general.

Every Holy Roman Emperor after Charlemagne was usually a German Emperor (from what I can tell).

The Holy Roman Empire was the 1st Reich, and it was a small Empire compared to the Roman Empire at it's height, but the Holy Roman Empire was arguably more influential in our world, than the Roman Empire of Caesar Augustus (arguably the greatest Pagan Roman Emperor), because the Holy Roman Empire, the first Reich, was the Empire of the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperors were crowned by the Pope, took a vow to defend the Pope and the Church, and the Catholic Church was a huge chunk of the world, which was influenced heavily by the Holy Roman Empire.

The Holy Roman Empire was the Empire of the Church, defender of the Church, defender of Christendom, what united Europe more than anything else, largely due to the accomplishments of Charlemagne!

As the Empire of the Catholic Church, with an Emperor who was "defender of the Pope", the Holy Roman Empire was a total Catholic Theocracy of the Pope, that the world really never saw anything like it before or afterwards.

This is what the flag of the Holy Roman Empire looked like

The reason it was not like other Empires, is because it was the Empire of the Pope, defender of the Church, the Emperor had the title "Emperor of the Romans", (which to some extent included all Catholics), because as Catholics were called to honor the teaching authority of the Pope, and teachings of the Church, the Pope wanted Roman Catholics to honor his Emperor, and the Empire of the Pope, and the only Emperor known as "The Defender of the Church!" Michael the Archangel is also called "defender of the Church", who (in Scripture) kicked the rebellious Angels out of Heaven!

 

[Augustus]

Constantine turned the Roman Empire into a Christian Empire in 313, but the Roman Empire fell in 476.

Theodosius made it the official religion, not Constantine. Also Constantinople, the main city of Constantine's Roman Empire, fell in 1453.

Charlemagne restored the Roman Empire, was crowned" Emperor of the Romans" by the Pope in 800, creating the " Holy Roman Empire", which lasted until 1806, so the Christian Empire he founded , lasted over a thousand years, and some historians have very valid basis for saying it lasted longer, because Napoleon Bonaparte occupied the territories of the Holy Roman Empire, was crowned by the Pope like Holy Roman Emperors, and made Catholicism the official Religion of his Empire,

It's hard to discount the influence of Rome on Christianising the Franks though, so without a Christian Roman Empire, you might not get Christian Charlemagne in the first place.

It is hard to separate the "Romanisation" of Germanic tribes from their Christianisation as there are numerous contingencies.


For example from :Gothic Christianity - Wikipedia

to

Clotilde (c. 474–545), also known as Clothilde, Clotilda, Clotild, Rotilde etc. (Latin: Chrodechildis, Chlodechildis from Frankish *Hrōþihildi or perhaps *Hlōdihildi, both "famous in battle"), was a Queen of All the Franks. She was supposedly descended from the Gothic king Athanaric and became the second wife of the Frankish king Clovis I (r. 481–509) in 493.[2] The Merovingian dynasty to which her husband belonged ruled Frankish kingdoms for over 200 years[3][4] (450–758).

Venerated as a saint by the Roman Catholic Church as well as by the Eastern Orthodox Church, she played a role in her husband's famous conversion to Christianity and, in her later yea

Clotilde - Wikipedia

 

[Truthseeker]

I'm going to say that Charlemagne benefited Christianity more than constantine, even though Constantine was the first emperor to legalize and sanction christianity, and turn Christianity into the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The evidence is overwhelming however, that Charlemagne influenced our world far more in a way that his influence continues to this very day, far more than constantine.

Constantine turned the Roman Empire into a Christian Empire in 313, but the Roman Empire fell in 476.

Charlemagne restored the Roman Empire, was crowned" Emperor of the Romans" by the Pope in 800, creating the " Holy Roman Empire", which lasted until 1806, so the Christian Empire he founded , lasted over a thousand years, and some historians have very valid basis for saying it lasted longer, because Napoleon Bonaparte occupied the territories of the Holy Roman Empire, was crowned by the Pope like Holy Roman Emperors, and made Catholicism the official Religion of his Empire, and I have even heard that Charlemagne was who Napoleon invoked, his role model, whose footsteps Emperor Bonaparte was seeking to follow in , when he got control of Charlemagne's nation of France, and most of Europe, which hails Charlemagne as "Father of Europe".

Most of the Holy Roman Emperors were crowned by the Pope himself!

Charlemagne is a lot more influential in the European union, than any historical figure I know of, because their building in their headquarters of Belgium is called "the Charlemagne building", they give out Charlemagne prizes, medals, and awards to those who contribute to European unity, and have a Charlemagne page in their magazineView attachment 62239 View attachment 62238 View attachment 62241 it would almost appear as if the European union is trying to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire.

Here is a map of Charlemagne's current Empire:
View attachment 62245View attachment 62240

Okay, if Charlemagne ran it though, monastic orders and convents would flourish, abortion would be considered homicide, gay marriage would be banned, pornography censored in the media, internet, and entertainment industry, prayers would be in public schools, and it would be more difficult for Muslims, so it isn't Charlemagne's Empire, but they honor him as the Spiritual Father of the European union, almost like their patron Saint.

But Charlemagne's Holy Roman Emperors being the defenders of the Pope and Christianity for over a thousand years, and apparently inspiring the Empire of Napoleon Bonaparte, makes Charlemagne more influential on our world than Emperor Constantine.

Your thoughts?

View attachment 62242 View attachment 62244

I read about Charlemagne. He forced people he conquered to become Christians. Not good.

"He also campaigned against the Saxons to his east, Christianizing them (upon penalty of death) and leading to events such as the Massacre of Verden."

Charlemagne - Wikipedia

By the way, I am descended from him, but I suppose millions are.

 

[Spiderman]

Theodosius made it the official religion, not Constantine. Also Constantinople, the main city of Constantine's Roman Empire, fell in 1453.



It's hard to discount the influence of Rome on Christianising the Franks though, so without a Christian Roman Empire, you might not get Christian Charlemagne in the first place.

It is hard to separate the "Romanisation" of Germanic tribes from their Christianisation as there are numerous contingencies.


For example from :Gothic Christianity - Wikipedia

to

Clotilde (c. 474–545), also known as Clothilde, Clotilda, Clotild, Rotilde etc. (Latin: Chrodechildis, Chlodechildis from Frankish *Hrōþihildi or perhaps *Hlōdihildi, both "famous in battle"), was a Queen of All the Franks. She was supposedly descended from the Gothic king Athanaric and became the second wife of the Frankish king Clovis I (r. 481–509) in 493.[2] The Merovingian dynasty to which her husband belonged ruled Frankish kingdoms for over 200 years[3][4] (450–758).

Venerated as a saint by the Roman Catholic Church as well as by the Eastern Orthodox Church, she played a role in her husband's famous conversion to Christianity and, in her later yea

Clotilde - Wikipedia

It was Constantine's actions that were responsible for Christianity being sanctioned in the Roman Empire.

Also, with the fall of Rome that I mentioned, you are speaking of the Byzantine Empire. It is classified as a totally different Empire, because Rome had fallen.

 

[Augustus]

It was Constantine's actions that were responsible for Christianity being sanctioned in the Roman Empire.

There was a Pagan Emperor after Constantine though.

Julian (emperor) - Wikipedia

Also, with the fall of Rome that I mentioned, you are speaking of the Byzantine Empire. It is classified as a totally different Empire, because Rome had fallen.

Anachronistically by modern Euro-centric scholars perhaps. Not by the Romans of the day.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I read about Charlemagne. He forced people he conquered to become Christians. Not good.

"He also campaigned against the Saxons to his east, Christianizing them (upon penalty of death) and leading to events such as the Massacre of Verden."

Charlemagne - Wikipedia

By the way, I am descended from him, but I suppose millions are.

Sure, but the pagan Germanic tribes weren't exactly known for being nice, what with their rampant human sacrifice, slavery and general brutality. At the same time as that, their cousins to the North were ransacking monasteries and slaughtering the defenseless monks there (I've seen modern Heathens celebrate the Lindisfarne raid as a holiday). Oh, and those are some of my ancestors, but who cares.

 

[Spiderman]

Sure, but the pagan Germanic tribes weren't exactly known for being nice, what with their rampant human sacrifice, slavery and general brutality. At the same time as that, their cousins to the North were ransacking monasteries and slaughtering the defenseless monks there (I've seen modern Heathens celebrate the Lindisfarne raid as a holiday). Oh, and those are some of my ancestors, but who cares.

Thank you! I knew human sacrifice ran rampant in many Pagan religions, but I was not too familiar with those ones in particular.

I was also not aware of Heathens celebrating the Lindisfarne raid as a Holiday! People seem very eager to speak of Charlemagne's atrocities, which I have never once justified, but I have heard condemnation of his actions repeatedly, even in public schools, and I heard it from a Catholic priest say Charlemagne was essentially worse than the founder of Islam!

Not once have I heard about the atrocities of the people he was fighting, or any of those barbaric practices, slavery, forced prostitution of children even, or sacking monasteries to slaughter peaceful monks, none of it covered by Charlemagne's critics, or people who condemn violent Christians.

The football team where I live is "The Vikings", I have Vikings ancestors, and I have an attraction to some of the Viking culture and Religion, as well as Odin and Freyja, but I would say military actions that Christians , the patron Saint of Sweden, and Saint Olaf took against Vikings, it was well warranted, and the Vikings had it coming with so much violent criminal behavior, and terrible things they did to people.

Christians are sinners, and consequently, Christians have done some terrible things that are not Christian behavior. It is inevitable.

But I feel like bad things that Christians have done to their enemies, is well covered and condemned, where as the atrocities committed by pagans and enemies of Christendom, and rampant human sacrifice, it wasn't covered in the public schools that I went to.

Crusaders were seen as these terrible people, when the crusades were fights to reclaim land that violent jihadists had stolen in Spain, France, North Africa, and the middle East.

If crusaders had not won the Battle of Lepanto, and sunk the Navy of the Turkish Empire, St Peter's Basilica would be a mosque, Italy would have fallen to the Ottoman Empire and become muslim, and politicized Sharia law might dominate europe, where European nations have laws like Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, Churches or Synagogues are forbidden!

North Africa, Turkey, the Holy Land, and much of the middle East was Christian at one time. It was violently stolen by the sword, and Christians, including countless children, often taken as slaves.

The Turkish sex trade , was the worst slavery I have ever read about.

Christians were left with no other option, but to fight against a very real, present, violent, extreme threat to their freedom and safety!

 

[Onasander]

Alexander Severus was Christian before Constantine. And we had a few pagan emperors after Constantine, both in his Dynasty and after, including in the west.

Julian the Apostate got a Christian burial. Alexander Severus was declared a God after his death by the Senate (clearly not a anti Christian crowd yet, but also not understanding Christians either).

 

[Heyo]

I'm going to say that Charlemagne benefited Christianity more than constantine, even though Constantine was the first emperor to legalize and sanction christianity, and turn Christianity into the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The evidence is overwhelming however, that Charlemagne influenced our world far more in a way that his influence continues to this very day, far more than constantine.

Constantine turned the Roman Empire into a Christian Empire in 313, but the Roman Empire fell in 476.

Charlemagne restored the Roman Empire, was crowned" Emperor of the Romans" by the Pope in 800, creating the " Holy Roman Empire", which lasted until 1806, so the Christian Empire he founded , lasted over a thousand years, and some historians have very valid basis for saying it lasted longer, because Napoleon Bonaparte occupied the territories of the Holy Roman Empire, was crowned by the Pope like Holy Roman Emperors, and made Catholicism the official Religion of his Empire, and I have even heard that Charlemagne was who Napoleon invoked, his role model, whose footsteps Emperor Bonaparte was seeking to follow in , when he got control of Charlemagne's nation of France, and most of Europe, which hails Charlemagne as "Father of Europe".

Most of the Holy Roman Emperors were crowned by the Pope himself!

Charlemagne is a lot more influential in the European union, than any historical figure I know of, because their building in their headquarters of Belgium is called "the Charlemagne building", they give out Charlemagne prizes, medals, and awards to those who contribute to European unity, and have a Charlemagne page in their magazineView attachment 62239 View attachment 62238 View attachment 62241 it would almost appear as if the European union is trying to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire.

Here is a map of Charlemagne's current Empire:
View attachment 62245View attachment 62240

Okay, if Charlemagne ran it though, monastic orders and convents would flourish, abortion would be considered homicide, gay marriage would be banned, pornography censored in the media, internet, and entertainment industry, prayers would be in public schools, and it would be more difficult for Muslims, so it isn't Charlemagne's Empire, but they honor him as the Spiritual Father of the European union, almost like their patron Saint.

But Charlemagne's Holy Roman Emperors being the defenders of the Pope and Christianity for over a thousand years, and apparently inspiring the Empire of Napoleon Bonaparte, makes Charlemagne more influential on our world than Emperor Constantine.

Your thoughts?

View attachment 62242 View attachment 62244

Carolus Magnus was an interesting character and yes, he did promote Christianity and I also think that he did so more than Constantin. (Though with deeply immoral methods.) But he wasn't a deeply religious man, he was more a practical ruler. He added to the Benedictinian rules things like how to maintain a Monastic garden and which plants to cultivate. And even so he was illiterate (reading, writing and managing the household/palate was women's work) he put much emphasis on education. The Carolingian Minuscule was the standard used throughout the medieval period.