Democracy is broken

[dianaiad]

I wouldn't worry.
Democracy has always been broken.
Its flaws are fundamental.
And yet it endures.

Yep. who was it who said that Democracy is the worst government possible...except for all the others?

Oh, yeah. Churchill said it. Actually he said that 'it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government possible, except for all the others."

So he was quoting an aphorism....that he probably made up.

he also said this:

How is that word “democracy” to be interpreted? My idea of it is that the plain, humble, common man, just the ordinary man who keeps a wife and family, who goes off to fight for his country when it is in trouble, goes to the poll at the appropriate time, and puts his cross on the ballot paper showing the candidate he wishes to be elected to Parliament—that he is the foundation of democracy. And it is also essential to this foundation that this man or woman should do this without fear, and without any form of intimidation or victimization. He marks his ballot paper in strict secrecy, and then elected representatives and together decide what government, or even in times of stress, what form of government they wish to have in their country. If that is democracy, I salute it. I espouse it. I would work for it.” —House of Commons, 8 December 1944

All hail Winston Churchill. He's absolutely right. Everything that is wrong with democracy is wrong because someone doesn't like how it works and thinks he could do a better job if he were in charge.

You never know; the critic might actually be right about that....but I wouldn't want to live under his rule, however kind, just or 'progressive' it is. I LIKE democracy. I like it BECAUSE of all it's flaws and irritations. I like the arguments. I like the fights. I like the compromises, even when those compromises irritate me. I like knowing that I can, if I bestir myself and enter into a fight, can say what I want and MAYBE change a mind or two.

Or that my own mind might be changed, in turn.

Democracy is messy, chaotic, and constantly on the verge of implosion. That's what makes it great.

 

[sun rise]

It's coming, in fact I would say it is already here to a degree but not through the government but through social pressure, privately owned companies censoring certain materiel, and censorship through omission.
Candace Owens is being labeled as an "agent of hate"

So you want the government to tell private businesses what they can and can't do?

 

[dianaiad]

Of course democracy is broken, since it's rather unrealistic. Humans are not primarily rational animals. We're instinctually pleasure-seeking and tribalistic, too. Social media and advertising, and consumer "culture" overall, just milks it all for all it's worth. They have psychologists working with them. It's not a new thing. It's been going on since about the '50s. There's documentary about it called The Century of the Self that I recommend. It's just gotten worse. Corporate news is mostly nonsense made for ratings, too. We don't have a real public media in America. There's NPR but that's it, and it's not listened to much since it's listeners are stereotyped as liberal snobs.

Er...that's like saying that calling a rock in a river is stereotyping rocks in rivers.

...and I AM a snob. Not liberal, mind you, but my Sirius presets are on symphony and opera channels.

But still, they are just giving us what we think we want.

Oh, no. They are giving us what they think we SHOULD want. And they are convincing themselves that they are correct about that.

Countries with more authoritarian countries don't have the same issues because they block or censor the Internet and have state-run media.

Yeah, and those countries honestly don't last very long, comparatively.

 

[Srivijaya]

Healthy democracy is based on choices and is struggling because the choices on offer don't address the underlying issues. The issues are not being addressed due to vested interests and a lack of vision.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, and those countries honestly don't last very long, comparatively.

They've been around longer than America. European countries and other countries like Australia also have censors and more robust public media.

 

[Nakosis]

Healthy democracy is based on choices and is struggling because the choices on offer don't address the underlying issues. The issues are not being addressed due to vested interests and a lack of vision.

Folks are easily manipulated by feelings and self interest. I think we've learned how to use that to manipulate democracy.

 

[dianaiad]

They've been around longer than America. European countries and other countries like Australia also have censors and more robust public media.

Were you aware that the United States of America has the longest lasting constitution in the world today?


That one threw me, when I found out about it.

Were you also aware that the United States of America has the longest lasting GOVERNMENT present in the world today, except for a couple of very small nations/kingdoms that just managed to hide during all the recent wars?

Yep, that goes even for the UK, because of the sea-change it experienced when the monarchy gave up it's role of 'ruler,' and settled for 'reigning' instead. Queen Elizabeth, bless her soul, does not rule. She reigns.

England's royalty hasn't RULED in quite some time. The king DID rule during the American Revolution--which was a good part of the problem, come to think. Even Queen Victoria did some ruling...but Queen Elizabeth does not, and neither will her son and grandson, when their turn comes to reign.

So America, the US, that 'brash young newcomer' that I have always been taught to think of ourselves as, is actually the grand old state that has lasted longer than anybody still around.

Of course there are other governments that have lasted longer, but they aren't here any more, either. WE are. We might well not last as long as some of them, but....

(shrug) don't say that any nation 'has been around longer than America.'

Because, I'm sorry, but they just haven't. I know...surprised me, too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Were you aware that the United States of America has the longest lasting constitution in the world today?


That one threw me, when I found out about it.

Were you also aware that the United States of America has the longest lasting GOVERNMENT present in the world today, except for a couple of very small nations/kingdoms that just managed to hide during all the recent wars?

Yep, that goes even for the UK, because of the sea-change it experienced when the monarchy gave up it's role of 'ruler,' and settled for 'reigning' instead. Queen Elizabeth, bless her soul, does not rule. She reigns.

England's royalty hasn't RULED in quite some time. The king DID rule during the American Revolution--which was a good part of the problem, come to think. Even Queen Victoria did some ruling...but Queen Elizabeth does not, and neither will her son and grandson, when their turn comes to reign.

So America, the US, that 'brash young newcomer' that I have always been taught to think of ourselves as, is actually the grand old state that has lasted longer than anybody still around.

Of course there are other governments that have lasted longer, but they aren't here any more, either. WE are. We might well not last as long as some of them, but....

(shrug) don't say that any nation 'has been around longer than America.'

Because, I'm sorry, but they just haven't. I know...surprised me, too.

Styles of government come and go. A government isn't a country. America is a very young country. It's an artificial one, too. Even in terms of governance, democracies are not very old. The oldest form of governance is monarchy. Humans tend to be hierarchical in large groups. American democracy is also in decline as we become more of an oligrachy over time, the rise of populism, Trump's dictatorial tendencies, the erosion of civil liberties and privacy, the militarization of the police, etc. So America is becoming less of a democracy with each passing year.

 

[dianaiad]

Styles of government come and go. A government isn't a country. America is a very young country. It's an artificial one, too. Even in terms of governance, democracies are not very old. The oldest form of governance is monarchy. Humans tend to be hierarchical in large groups. American democracy is also in decline as we become more of an oligrachy over time, the rise of populism, Trump's dictatorial tendencies, the erosion of civil liberties and privacy, the militarization of the police, etc. So America is becoming less of a democracy with each passing year.

Perhaps...but that wasn't what your claim was. Now you are moving the goalposts.

As for whether America is becoming less of a democracy with each passing year...well, it never WAS a pure democracy. America is a republic. That's different.

Democracy, for us, works on the local level, but not on the state or federal level. We have a huge amount of information that we all have to deal with, that we never had to deal with before. Now the individual American actually can see how the sausage is made.

And we are having problems dealing with that, I'm afraid.

I AM having problems figuring out how you can call us an 'artificial' country. We are a country, period, and we became so the same way every other nation became a 'country," by colonization and conquest. Just like the UK became a country, or Germany did, or France did...or any European or Asian nation.

Nothing 'artificial' about that. Just same old, same old. We have just been, recently, better at it. Whether we REMAIN as we are?

Who knows?

But there is nothing at all artificial about us.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Perhaps...but that wasn't what your claim was. Now you are moving the goalposts.

As for whether America is becoming less of a democracy with each passing year...well, it never WAS a pure democracy. America is a republic. That's different.

Democracy, for us, works on the local level, but not on the state or federal level. We have a huge amount of information that we all have to deal with, that we never had to deal with before. Now the individual American actually can see how the sausage is made.

And we are having problems dealing with that, I'm afraid.

I AM having problems figuring out how you can call us an 'artificial' country. We are a country, period, and we became so the same way every other nation became a 'country," by colonization and conquest. Just like the UK became a country, or Germany did, or France did...or any European or Asian nation.

Nothing 'artificial' about that. Just same old, same old. We have just been, recently, better at it. Whether we REMAIN as we are?

Who knows?

But there is nothing at all artificial about us.

I didn't move any goalposts. America is a very young country. I didn't say anything to contradict that.

America is an artificial country since it is a country made up of recent immigrants with no common culture, traditions, ethnicity, etc. The indigenous people were killed off and displaced for the most part, their cultures destroyed. That is not how most nations form. Organic nations (like in much of the old world, such as in Europe, Much of Asia and so on) form by tribes in a larger area join together forming ethnic groups. They have common or similar langauges and culture. They just join to build a larger entity. Their nationality and ethnicity are the same. A German is a German ethnically and in terms of nationality, for instance. An American is only an American by citizenship.

 

[Rival]

Were you aware that the United States of America has the longest lasting constitution in the world today?
9

That one threw me, when I found out about it.

Were you also aware that the United States of America has the longest lasting GOVERNMENT present in the world today, except for a couple of very small nations/kingdoms that just managed to hide during all the recent wars?

Yep, that goes even for the UK, because of the sea-change it experienced when the monarchy gave up it's role of 'ruler,' and settled for 'reigning' instead. Queen Elizabeth, bless her soul, does not rule. She reigns.

England's royalty hasn't RULED in quite some time. The king DID rule during the American Revolution--which was a good part of the problem, come to think. Even Queen Victoria did some ruling...but Queen Elizabeth does not, and neither will her son and grandson, when their turn comes to reign.

So America, the US, that 'brash young newcomer' that I have always been taught to think of ourselves as, is actually the grand old state that has lasted longer than anybody still around.

Of course there are other governments that have lasted longer, but they aren't here any more, either. WE are. We might well not last as long as some of them, but....

(shrug) don't say that any nation 'has been around longer than America.'

Because, I'm sorry, but they just haven't. I know...surprised me, too.

I'm sorry but this is hilarious. Oldest nation? That's some American exceptionalism right there.

Also it's the British monarchy. Not the English.

 

[dianaiad]

I didn't move any goalposts. America is a very young country. I didn't say anything to contradict that.

America is an artificial country since it is a country made up of recent immigrants with no common culture, traditions, ethnicity, etc. The indigenous people were killed off and displaced for the most part, their cultures destroyed. That is not how most nations form.

Then you need a 'history 101' class. That is PRECISELY how nations are formed. In fact, there hasn't been a nation I know of that didn't form that way, from Egypt to Greece to Rome, to the Europeans who fought back Rome: from France to the UK...

How in the world do you think that the UK 'formed?"

Good heavens, St. Frankenstein...the only reason that the USA is NOT presently the longest lived government on the planet is because there are one or two very small areas that nobody else wanted. So they weren't conquered.

Organic nations (like in much of the old world, such as in Europe, Much of Asia and so on) form by tribes in a larger area join together forming ethnic groups. [/quote]

No. They formed by tribes who beat the )(*)& out of each other, and the strongest tribe imposed its culture upon the conquered.

BTW, that went for the native Americans, as well.

They have common or similar langauges and culture.

Uh, no.

Have you ever heard of the history of English? Why English is currently the 'official' language everybody uses for commerce and why all aircraft controllers (and commercial airline pilots) all use English? It's because the groups that speak English (and there are several 'Englishes,' btw) have been winning all the wars. It is used now for the same reason that Latin was the language of choice for scholars and diplomats for centuries; because the 'tribes' were NOT getting on all that well together, and Rome just kept conquering people.

It's also a language that pretty much swallows up the good stuff from all the other languages....but that's not the point I'm going to make.

They just join to build a larger entity. Their nationality and ethnicity are the same. A German is a German ethnically and in terms of nationality, for instance. An American is only an American by citizenship.

....and just how many centuries must a family call a nation 'home' before he is 'American' by birthright as well as 'citizenship?" I can count my ancestry back to before 1492, actually, being descended from Eric the Red. part of my family hails back to 1620. That would make my family 'from America' for 400 years.

........but something tells me that it doesn't matter; you would figure that it would require at least ten more years than any of US can count.

OK...to the point...English. English is weird. It is actually descended from German...high German. That's where we get our grammar and a lot of our vocabulary. English kept that, as well as a great deal of Latin, from the wars back and forth between the Celts and Rome. Then, of course, came William the Conquerer, who brought Norman French over, and we got most of our vocabulary from them; though we kept the Germanic grammar. English is the ultimate 'creole' language, and it is so because of all the back and forth conquering everybody did.

Hey, if you want to see what Norman French did, read the first bit of 'Ivanhoe,' by Sir Walter Scott; there is a conversation at the very first between Gurth and Wamba about how even after four generations, there was precious little assimilation going on.

Eventually, however, things settled. However, don't go thinking that the Anglo-Saxons (and notice that the Anglos and the Saxons weren't all that assimilated; they just had a common foe in the Normans) and the Normans 'got together' because of common cultures and language.

Because that just ain't so. I don't know where you got your historical information, but it sure as shooting didn't come from a text book. At least, I hope it didn't.

Oh....and English bears absolutely NO resemblance to Gaelic or Welsh...and the folks who speak either wouldn't thank you for telling them that they became part of the UK because all their neighbors were just like them, and that they shared common cultures and languages.

There is nothing at all 'artificial' about the USA, either in the way it was founded, or the people who live here. I claim my birthright...by FOUR CENTURIES...right here. My kids can track their ancestry back considerably farther than that. Yes, a bunch of my ancestors came from Scotland, centuries ago, but again I have to ask you;

Just how long does my family have to LIVE HERE in order to be viewed as 'native,' or to belong here, or to be more than just a 'citizen?"

.....just when I thought I had seen it all, I have to admit, someone comes up with something that completely flabbergasts me. You managed to do that. "Artificial?" Americans aren't Americans, just 'citizens' of an 'artificial country?"

Great googly moogly.

 

[dianaiad]

I'm sorry but this is hilarious. Oldest nation? That's some American exceptionalism right there.

What's wrong with American exceptionalism? What's wrong with pride in one's homeland, and patriotism?

BTW, I didn't call it the oldest nation. I said 'oldest government." Well, at least until the last sentence, but that was a miss type. I meant 'government."

Also it's the British monarchy. Not the English.

And you are criticizing ME for 'American exceptionalism?"

I have news for you, Rival. There is something very exceptional about America, and I'm not going to tiptoe around facts because it might make European and/or British snobs take offense.

The USA IS the oldest government existing on the planet today, with a couple of very small exceptions...and that includes the UK.

And no Brit has the right to criticize an American for taking pride in his country, or for pointing out facts. But you go ahead; don't take my word for this. San Marino might be THE oldest one. Other than that?

Sorry. It's us. Britain has changed her method of governing too fundamentally to claim to be older. If you don't like that, I'm sorry, but it's true.

Personally, I would rather consider us to be the brash young newcomer; the eager youngster trying all sorts of new things. But we are the...not grandpa, but certainly the older brother among the nations of today.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Democracy is broken and in need of fixing.

In today's landscape of "social" media and the perverse delusional idea that "everybody" and their mothers are unbiased "reporters" on these platforms, we have hit a dangerous wall. Internet companies are only aggravating an already bad situation.

Companies like google, even companies like Netflix, are no longer serving you with actual news or a proper view of all info or media available. What they serve you with, is a BUBBLE view of the world in all its aspect, based on your "preferences". Aka, based on the data they gathered on you (which a lot of times, if not most of the time, is gathered and stored ILLEGALLY btw) and which they collect into "super profiles" on you in their giant data centers.

From your newsfeeds in "apps" to the (political) advertisements you see. Today's internet is accomplishing the exact opposite of what common sense would have expected it would accomplish.

In the 90s, when the internet was spreading into every living room and creeping unto every device, we figured that it would OPEN UP the world. That any and all information would be at our fingertips. That (actual) news would be able to spread faster. That people would no longer have to rely on gossip and hearsay, or just a handfull of news outlets.

The exact opposite is true today. The vast majority of people is put into an ever shrinking "bubble". The shape of the bubble is determined by what these people ALREADY believe, what their opinions ALREADY are. The more data the facebooks and googles of this world have on you, the smaller the bubble of information becomes.

This means that if you are a YEC and do google searches or whatever, then pro-YEC sites will be more dominantly featured in the result list. Meaning that while you started out engulfed in scientific ignorance, the googles of this world will push you in even deeper then you already were, in some kind of ultimate confirmation bias.

This is extremely worrying. It means that people's ideas and beliefs are challenged less and lessm or even not at all.

If we then look at various elections of the last several years, we see quite some impact of all this. More and more people have no clue what they are voting for, because they are terribly misinformed or quite simply "manipulated" by fake news, propaganda and populistic compaigning on social media.

We saw it with Brexit, we saw it with Trump and now we see it with the push to the populistic extreme right in the various european elections.

This is an absolutely detrimental situation for a democracy. Worst of all: countries like china and russia are taking notice. They have been caught red handed several times with lobbying / hacking on social media to get the people they want elected. Through such practices, they are actively trying (and succeeding) in destablizing western democracies from the inside out.

By electing terrible people based on ignorance or just plain false information, we are collectively destroying our secular nations through implosion.


I say it is very much time to take a step back and re-evaluate how a democracy should work, how the voting should be organized and how treatment of politicians themselves needs to change.

As a disclaimer, I have no idea of how practical this would be, or if it would be even managebly possible at all... But as far as I see, there are 3 major problems that need to be addressed:

1. Today, literally ANYONE can get elected into office. ANYONE. All it takes, is enough popularity. This is a terrible situation to be in, by itself. ESPECIALLY coupled with an ignorant collective of voters. To me, it makes no sense that ANYONE is able to take on such responsability. I say that we need a system where politicians first need to take some kind of test or exam, by which they first have to prove that they are actually qualified and capable to take on such a responsability. And additionally, a test of "specialisation" in context of the department where they would end up. For example, a lawyer has NO BUSINESS being the minister of health. Try someone who actually did some medical studies instead...

2. Today, literally ANYONE can vote as long as they aren't minors. This too, makes no sense to me. The vast majority of people that vote for some party, actually have no idea what they are really voting for. They think they should vote for party A, because party A has been spamming them about a single issue they agree with (which is easy to do on social media through "trends" and data analytics). So they think that A is the party for them. But they aren't aware that on that particular point, party B has the exact same stance. They also don't know that party A, has dozens more points - many of which they do NOT agree with. So the people are led by misinformation, incomplete information, populistic manipulation and social media advertisements / marketing campaigns. I say that we should reform this as well. Yes, ANYONE should be able to vote, just like ANYONE should be able to become an electable politician. HOWEVER.... I say, you first need to demonstrate that you are a responsible voter and that you KNOW and UNDERSTAND what it is exactly that you are voting for. Perhaps some sort of test a month before the elections, where you need to prove that you actually know and understand what the different parties stand for, what their policy points are, etc. Only if you pass, you get the ticket that allows you to vote.
Another option might be to stop letting people vote directly for a party. Instead, serve like 100 general statements concerning current issues where you get 5 options from "completely disagree" to "completely agree". After your 100 answers, the software matches you with a party that most closely matches your answers and boom, your vote automatically goes to them.

3. Politicians get away with FAR to much. Consider politicians being members of a board of directors at a private company. Consider how little room for mistake they'ld have there. Consider what happens to these directors when they make mistakes. Consider what happens to these directors if they are caught lying to the public to protect their seat or to manipulate any kind of data point. In a private company, this is "rewarded" with getting immediately fired. In politicis however, it seems that this behaviour is actually rewarded with promotion and/or golden handshakes. Isn't that right, Nigel Farage?
It's disgusting. There needs to be some law in place that allows for proper prosecution of politicians who deliberatly lie in order to manipulate public opinion. There need to be swift and correct consequences attached to misinformation, manipulation, lying, boycotting, etc.



So, that's how I see it.
Sorry if it turned out a bit of a rant..... But I had to. I see our secular democratic world being destroyed from within by lying, manipulating, populist pricks and there doesn't seem to be anything we can do about that. And it's only getting worse.

And if I am right (and I'm fairly certain that I am) that this is heavily connected to "social media" and all the nasty crap that comes with that, then this isn't going to change any time soon. In fact, it's only going to get much much worse.

Wake up, people from the west. Wake up.

Put that phone away.
Delete that failbook account.
Delete that instagram.
Stop using whatsapp.
Stop with all that nonsense and start thinking for yourself again.

INFORM and EDUCATE yourselves as well as your fellow citizens.

We can still turn this around.
But I fear that the "point of no return" is closing in on us very very fast.

I'm a decent log chain away from armed insurrection, myself.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

What's wrong with American exceptionalism? What's wrong with pride in one's homeland, and patriotism?

Believing your country special is fine. Believing your country is exempt from the rules it seeks to impose on others is not. Patriotism is great, when it's expressed by wanting to make your country the best it can be. Patriotism (Nationalism) is malignant when insisting it is the best, no matter what.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then you need a 'history 101' class. That is PRECISELY how nations are formed. In fact, there hasn't been a nation I know of that didn't form that way, from Egypt to Greece to Rome, to the Europeans who fought back Rome: from France to the UK...

How in the world do you think that the UK 'formed?"

Good heavens, St. Frankenstein...the only reason that the USA is NOT presently the longest lived government on the planet is because there are one or two very small areas that nobody else wanted. So they weren't conquered.

Organic nations (like in much of the old world, such as in Europe, Much of Asia and so on) form by tribes in a larger area join together forming ethnic groups.

No. They formed by tribes who beat the )(*)& out of each other, and the strongest tribe imposed its culture upon the conquered.

BTW, that went for the native Americans, as well.



Uh, no.

Have you ever heard of the history of English? Why English is currently the 'official' language everybody uses for commerce and why all aircraft controllers (and commercial airline pilots) all use English? It's because the groups that speak English (and there are several 'Englishes,' btw) have been winning all the wars. It is used now for the same reason that Latin was the language of choice for scholars and diplomats for centuries; because the 'tribes' were NOT getting on all that well together, and Rome just kept conquering people.

It's also a language that pretty much swallows up the good stuff from all the other languages....but that's not the point I'm going to make.



....and just how many centuries must a family call a nation 'home' before he is 'American' by birthright as well as 'citizenship?" I can count my ancestry back to before 1492, actually, being descended from Eric the Red. part of my family hails back to 1620. That would make my family 'from America' for 400 years.

........but something tells me that it doesn't matter; you would figure that it would require at least ten more years than any of US can count.

OK...to the point...English. English is weird. It is actually descended from German...high German. That's where we get our grammar and a lot of our vocabulary. English kept that, as well as a great deal of Latin, from the wars back and forth between the Celts and Rome. Then, of course, came William the Conquerer, who brought Norman French over, and we got most of our vocabulary from them; though we kept the Germanic grammar. English is the ultimate 'creole' language, and it is so because of all the back and forth conquering everybody did.

Hey, if you want to see what Norman French did, read the first bit of 'Ivanhoe,' by Sir Walter Scott; there is a conversation at the very first between Gurth and Wamba about how even after four generations, there was precious little assimilation going on.

Eventually, however, things settled. However, don't go thinking that the Anglo-Saxons (and notice that the Anglos and the Saxons weren't all that assimilated; they just had a common foe in the Normans) and the Normans 'got together' because of common cultures and language.

Because that just ain't so. I don't know where you got your historical information, but it sure as shooting didn't come from a text book. At least, I hope it didn't.

Oh....and English bears absolutely NO resemblance to Gaelic or Welsh...and the folks who speak either wouldn't thank you for telling them that they became part of the UK because all their neighbors were just like them, and that they shared common cultures and languages.

There is nothing at all 'artificial' about the USA, either in the way it was founded, or the people who live here. I claim my birthright...by FOUR CENTURIES...right here. My kids can track their ancestry back considerably farther than that. Yes, a bunch of my ancestors came from Scotland, centuries ago, but again I have to ask you;

Just how long does my family have to LIVE HERE in order to be viewed as 'native,' or to belong here, or to be more than just a 'citizen?"

.....just when I thought I had seen it all, I have to admit, someone comes up with something that completely flabbergasts me. You managed to do that. "Artificial?" Americans aren't Americans, just 'citizens' of an 'artificial country?"

Great googly moogly.[/QUOTE]
No, nations aren't typically formed through mass displacement and genocide of the original inhabitants. Colonialism and imperialism were always a thing but people aren't generally just wiped out, their cultures snuffed out and totally replaced. Even Rome didn't do that, typically.

My point is just that Americans aren't an ethnic group, were imported from other lands (sometimes against their will) and America is quite a new country. It's an Enlightenment experiment, actually (one that I think has largely failed from the start but I digress).

 

[dianaiad]

Believing your country special is fine. Believing your country is exempt from the rules it seeks to impose on others is not. Patriotism is great, when it's expressed by wanting to make your country the best it can be. Patriotism (Nationalism) is malignant when insisting it is the best, no matter what.

Well, when you can show me where I have made THAT claim, you can accuse me of "American Exceptionalism." I made a claim of fact. this has nothing at all to do with 'exceptionalism.' Either the USA is the 'oldest democracy' still existing, or it isn't. Either it is the oldest government still existing, or it isn't. Whether you like it or not, save for San Marino (and San Marino keeps getting put under someone else's aegis so might not count) the USA is the oldest democratic government still existing, and the oldest government still existing.

Sorry that this offends the snobs among us, but them's the facts.

 

[dianaiad]

No, nations aren't typically formed through mass displacement and genocide of the original inhabitants. Colonialism and imperialism were always a thing but people aren't generally just wiped out, their cultures snuffed out and totally replaced. Even Rome didn't do that, typically.

Yes it did. Unless you can show me how the UK still is divided and everybody...and I do mean everybody...still speaks Anglo-Saxon, and how the British Parliament debates are held in Gaelic, Cornish or Welsh?

there hasn't been a nation formed YET that wasn't conquered by another group, speaking another language, killing off the rebellious and forcing their culture upon the losers.

This not me saying that this is a good thing. It's just how it was done. By everybody...and nobody apologized for it until the USA got so strong that it figured it could apologize for the way it became a nation.

Great Britain was a prime example of that. ....or have you noticed that India, South Africa and Australia all speak English, and that wholesale destruction of the indigenous peoples was just SOP?

Spain did it. Portugal did it. Germany, the Netherlands and France did it. Certainly Rome did it, in Latin spades.

..................and the winners wrote the histories. I'm not claiming that the USA is the 'best' at anything. I'm just giving easily provable (or if I'm wrong, easily disproven) FACTS.

Whitewashing human history so that you can feel all virtuous about your own history while you criticize the USA doesn't help.

Hypocrisy bugs me. It's one thing to point out that you don't like America or Americans. It's quite another to pretend that America is 'artificial,' and that somehow all virtue belongs to everybody ELSE.

My point is just that Americans aren't an ethnic group, were imported from other lands (sometimes against their will) and America is quite a new country. It's an Enlightenment experiment, actually (one that I think has largely failed from the start but I digress).

And so was Great Britain, and France, and pretty much every other nation. America has been around now for nearly half a millennium. Just how long do you think it TAKES to become a nation where families who have been there for four hundred years can claim to be 'native?"

the FACT is, we're here. We've been here for centuries. We got here exactly the same way all the European and Asian nations got here, by colonization, conquest and assimilation. Some of that was 'good,' most wasn't...just like everybody else. The winners imposed their culture on the losers. Just like everybody else.

I HOPE that humans are growing up and realizing that this isn't all that good a method of nation building, but when I look at the world around me, I see that no....everybody is still doing it that way.

and everybody but America has had major changes in their forms of government SINCE the USA was founded as a government. Everybody else.

Do not pretend that Europe and Great Britain and China and all of the other nations of the world are somehow exempt from this. You aren't. We are still here. YOUR forms of government are newer....and most of 'em have attempted to emulate ours, with greater and lesser success.

Just get over it. Your effluvium is just as odorific as ours. More so. WE didn't start the slave trade, for instance.

And until we came along, nobody, but NOBODY, was apologizing to the losers in any conquest.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes it did. Unless you can show me how the UK still is divided and everybody...and I do mean everybody...still speaks Anglo-Saxon, and how the British Parliament debates are held in Gaelic, Cornish or Welsh?

there hasn't been a nation formed YET that wasn't conquered by another group, speaking another language, killing off the rebellious and forcing their culture upon the losers.

This not me saying that this is a good thing. It's just how it was done. By everybody...and nobody apologized for it until the USA got so strong that it figured it could apologize for the way it became a nation.

Great Britain was a prime example of that. ....or have you noticed that India, South Africa and Australia all speak English, and that wholesale destruction of the indigenous peoples was just SOP?

Spain did it. Portugal did it. Germany, the Netherlands and France did it. Certainly Rome did it, in Latin spades.

..................and the winners wrote the histories. I'm not claiming that the USA is the 'best' at anything. I'm just giving easily provable (or if I'm wrong, easily disproven) FACTS.

Whitewashing human history so that you can feel all virtuous about your own history while you criticize the USA doesn't help.

Hypocrisy bugs me. It's one thing to point out that you don't like America or Americans. It's quite another to pretend that America is 'artificial,' and that somehow all virtue belongs to everybody ELSE.



And so was Great Britain, and France, and pretty much every other nation. America has been around now for nearly half a millennium. Just how long do you think it TAKES to become a nation where families who have been there for four hundred years can claim to be 'native?"

the FACT is, we're here. We've been here for centuries. We got here exactly the same way all the European and Asian nations got here, by colonization, conquest and assimilation. Some of that was 'good,' most wasn't...just like everybody else. The winners imposed their culture on the losers. Just like everybody else.

I HOPE that humans are growing up and realizing that this isn't all that good a method of nation building, but when I look at the world around me, I see that no....everybody is still doing it that way.

and everybody but America has had major changes in their forms of government SINCE the USA was founded as a government. Everybody else.

Do not pretend that Europe and Great Britain and China and all of the other nations of the world are somehow exempt from this. You aren't. We are still here. YOUR forms of government are newer....and most of 'em have attempted to emulate ours, with greater and lesser success.

Just get over it. Your effluvium is just as odorific as ours. More so. WE didn't start the slave trade, for instance.

And until we came along, nobody, but NOBODY, was apologizing to the losers in any conquest.

The UK is made up of different countries (while the UK itself could be considered a country, oddly). They speak different languages because they're different ethnic groups. I'm not sure why you mentioned that.

British colonialism is related to but not quite the same thing as what I'm talking about. I never said that America was the only one that did it, either. I'm not going to repeat myself.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Well, when you can show me where I have made THAT claim, you can accuse me of "American Exceptionalism." I made a claim of fact. this has nothing at all to do with 'exceptionalism.' Either the USA is the 'oldest democracy' still existing, or it isn't. Either it is the oldest government still existing, or it isn't. Whether you like it or not, save for San Marino (and San Marino keeps getting put under someone else's aegis so might not count) the USA is the oldest democratic government still existing, and the oldest government still existing.

Sorry that this offends the snobs among us, but them's the facts.

Can you stop the reflexive defensive tapdancing for just one post?

A. I didn't say you made any claim, I was commenting on American exceptionalism and when it's bad.

2. As for "Oldest government still existing", it isn't. IIRC Egypt claims the title as the world's oldest continuous political entity, and Iceland claims the title for world's longest unbroken government.

Oldest Democratic government? Well that's different to "oldest government" isn't it? But Even so, Iceland and Great Britain beat American Democracy as "oldest".