Deists: do you believe God ever intervenes?

[Deidre]

Deists, wondering your thoughts on an after-life, and if you believe that God intervenes. Since God could very well be capable of anything, I don’t see why he wouldn’t or couldn’t ‘intervene’ at times. But, I don’t believe in heaven or hell, at least not in the way it’s characterized in the Abrahamic faiths.

Look forward to gaining some insight into how other Deists think on these subjects.

 

[JRMcC]

Deists, wondering your thoughts on an after-life, and if you believe that God intervenes. Since God could very well be capable of anything, I don’t see why he wouldn’t or couldn’t ‘intervene’ at times. But, I don’t believe in heaven or hell, at least not in the way it’s characterized in the Abrahamic faiths.

Look forward to gaining some insight into how other Deists think on these subjects.

This is an interesting post, I wonder why no one has responded yet. I used to be a deist, and for me the line between God intervening and things working out according to God's long-term plan was blurred.

 

[columbus]

No.
I don't believe God is a sentient being. So God cannot have plans or wishes, much less unfulfilled plans and wishes.

Or, you could say that God is intimately involved in absolutely everything all the time, without exception. Sorta like gravity, which never "intervenes". It just is. It doesn't play favorites or change its mind or notice our human concerns at all. Gravity is beyond our control.
So is God.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I do have faith in what could be called an afterlife. It is a faith belief, there is absolutely no evidence for it. I simply prefer to live in a world where it is true. And since there is no evidence on the subject nobody can demonstrate that I am wrong.
I believe that the most important part of a living thing is really a part of God. When we dump our meat-self that part returns to God, our identity ceases to exist(along with our problems), and our meat returns to the cycle of nature.
Tom

 

[Deidre]

This is an interesting post, I wonder why no one has responded yet. I used to be a deist, and for me the line between God intervening and things working out according to God's long-term plan was blurred.

Thanks for your thoughts to it. Yes, I too happen to see it as a blurry kind of thing. I don't have such details if you will, worked out in my mind as to how exactly God would or why he would intervene. Perhaps, that is the beauty of Deism...not having to know. Not wanting to know, either. I don't know who or what a god is, and there is an unsettling kind of mysterious beauty in that.

No.
I don't believe God is a sentient being. So God cannot have plans or wishes, much less unfulfilled plans and wishes

VERY interesting comment. Why do you suppose God can't have wishes?

Or, you could say that God is intimately involved in absolutely everything all the time, without exception. Sorta like gravity, which never "intervenes". It just is. It doesn't play favorites or change its mind or notice our human concerns at all. Gravity is beyond our control.
So is God.
Tom

I happen to think that if there exists an actual God of the universe...One who created everything in it...that he allows us to ruin it. And in those moments, we can choose to learn from our own ruin, or continue ruining. But, he could intervene if he chose to. Like a parent with a child...he lets the child play outside. The child falls. The parent watches from the window, and the child cries out, but eventually, gets back up...and begins playing again. The parent smiles that his child learned how to work through his own pain. This is my image of who and what a Deity is. If that makes sense.

 

[Deidre]

I do have faith in what could be called an afterlife. It is a faith belief, there is absolutely no evidence for it. I simply prefer to live in a world where it is true. And since there is no evidence on the subject nobody can demonstrate that I am wrong.
I believe that the most important part of a living thing is really a part of God. When we dump our meat-self that part returns to God, our identity ceases to exist(along with our problems), and our meat returns to the cycle of nature.
Tom

''meat self?'' ^_^ I've never in a million years heard of that saying. lol

I like a lot, how you've worded this. In your idea of an after life...is there a judgement day that precludes entering into it?

 

[lovemuffin]

No.
I don't believe God is a sentient being. So God cannot have plans or wishes, much less unfulfilled plans and wishes.

Or, you could say that God is intimately involved in absolutely everything all the time, without exception. Sorta like gravity, which never "intervenes". It just is. It doesn't play favorites or change its mind or notice our human concerns at all. Gravity is beyond our control.
So is God.

Along these lines, there's a paragraph about the problem of "omnipotence" in the mainstream theistic traditions that I find profound:

"Certainly, the power to let a flower blossom out of a small seed, an animal appear out of the conjunction of two cells, or even the universe be out of nothing prior to it, is more than a moral power. It is undoubtedly a divine power inherent in the nature of things, but different from the alleged omnipotence of the will of a monotheistic God who, despite being all-powerful and good, “permits” the existence of evil.

Divine power, as in the examples of nature, is immanent in the nature of things themselves, which brings us much closer to the trinity of the cosmotheandric insight. Divine full-power is not disconnected from the (divine) potency inherent in the very nature of beings. It is not the omnipotence of a separated God, commanded from the outside. It is not the omnipotence of the will." (The Rhythm of Being, Panikkar)
​

Although, out of context it may seem more pantheistic (or at least panentheistic) than Deist in the sense of a clock-maker God who creates the world.

 

[Deidre]

Along these lines, there's a paragraph about the problem of "omnipotence" in the mainstream theistic traditions that I find profound:

"Certainly, the power to let a flower blossom out of a small seed, an animal appear out of the conjunction of two cells, or even the universe be out of nothing prior to it, is more than a moral power. It is undoubtedly a divine power inherent in the nature of things, but different from the alleged omnipotence of the will of a monotheistic God who, despite being all-powerful and good, “permits” the existence of evil.

Divine power, as in the examples of nature, is immanent in the nature of things themselves, which brings us much closer to the trinity of the cosmotheandric insight. Divine full-power is not disconnected from the (divine) potency inherent in the very nature of beings. It is not the omnipotence of a separated God, commanded from the outside. It is not the omnipotence of the will." (The Rhythm of Being, Panikkar)
​

Although, out of context it may seem more pantheistic (or at least panentheistic) than Deist in the sense of a clock-maker God who creates the world.

Very well stated, well named.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Deists, wondering your thoughts on an after-life, and if you believe that God intervenes. Since God could very well be capable of anything, I don’t see why he wouldn’t or couldn’t ‘intervene’ at times. But, I don’t believe in heaven or hell, at least not in the way it’s characterized in the Abrahamic faiths.

God, IF It exists, can not intervene. To do so would be to undermine or spoil the test, if you will, of how we exercise free will. I believe that's the only reason for God making the universe--to spawn self-aware creatures with moral free will. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly. Instead, God isolates us in a completely natural, rational universe behind a 13 billion year old firewall.

If God exists, it's reasonable to suppose there's an afterlife. But why would God and the "heavenly host" want to have all that eternal pain and tribulation going on. The only judges would be ourselves, ensconced in a judgement seat bathed in the light of Truth, unable to lie to ourselves. (There's a movie out now, A Girl Like Her, that puts that process up on the big screen in living color, albeit in this life.) Those unable to face Truth of the evil of who or what they were, would have an oblivion button handy. The people who invented hell as a manipulative tool of fear would be among the quickest to push it.

BTW, gender, a necessity for higher reproduction in the natural universe, wouldn't be necessary in a hereafter. Beyond that I'm unable to speculate since gender and sex are such an important part of living this life, I can't emote anything else. I'll just have to cross that bridge if and when I get there.

I like your tag line, "to thine own self be true". I believe that to do so, you (we) have to know thyself, and know what Truth is. I believe we have to balance selfishness and selflessness under the principle of enlightened self-interest. I'm number one, but so is everybody else.

This is an interesting post, I wonder why no one has responded yet. I used to be a deist, and for me the line between God intervening and things working out according to God's long-term plan was blurred.

I see the only possible plan for God, long term or otherwise, to have us live in the rational universe and exercise our moral free will. It's a test, and divine intervention would spoil the pudding. The importance of free will can't be over-emphasized. It's the one and only reason we're here, or for the universe being created. It's a profound gift.

If you aren't a deist, what are you now? BTW, no one can claim any certainty about the supernatural, what came "before" the universe, or if there' s anything "through" the space-time gaps in the fabric of the universe. So any reasonable philosophy dealing with the divine would have to be under an overarching agnostic umbrella--ergo my agnostic-deism, and the necessity of agnostic hyphenation for any philosophy concerning the divine.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Like a parent with a child...he lets the child play outside. The child falls. The parent watches from the window, and the child cries out, but eventually, gets back up...and begins playing again. The parent smiles that his child learned how to work through his own pain. This is my image of who and what a Deity is. If that makes sense.

But to take this analogy further, what if the child falls and severely injures himself, needing urgent medical treatment. Obviously a human parent would intervene, but what does God do? It seems like nothing.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

But to take this analogy further, what if the child falls and severely injures himself, needing urgent medical treatment. Obviously a human parent would intervene, but what does God do? It seems like nothing.

Exactly, showing us how important our free will is.

 

[Deidre]

Exactly, showing us how important our free will is.

I don't know if free will always comes into play. If a God exists, in a scenario like this, I chalk it up to 'life happens.'
Too bad there isn't a category or label that suits a person who is between atheism and deism. lol I'm leaning more towards agnosticism/atheism. Open to the idea of a deity existing, but since we will never really 'know' with certainty, I don't want to spend too much time pondering all the possibilities that might exist.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I don't know if free will always comes into play. If a God exists, in a scenario like this, I chalk it up to 'life happens.'

Again, exactly, life happens. Every bad thing that happens to good people and vice versa, results in the same question, Why? The answer is the same thing every time: God's commitment (if God exists) to maintaining our free will by not intervening. Revealed religion on the other hand has to do some version of the Book of Job shuffle where the final answer, in that extensive tome, is God saying, it's none of your business. Other self-serving cynical responses to that question (among many) are "God helps those who help themselves", or "Your faith must not have been strong enough".

Too bad there isn't a category or label that suits a person who is between atheism and deism. lol I'm leaning more towards agnosticism/atheism. Open to the idea of a deity existing, but since we will never really 'know' with certainty, I don't want to spend too much time pondering all the possibilities that might exist.

But that's only two possibilities, agnostic-atheism or agnostic-deism. And like I say, the only difference between deism and atheism, for mankind, is hope. Hope is uplifting. No hope is a downer. Yes, there is no evidence either way, but then again since there is no evidence, why not choose the reasoned path that makes us feel better.

Edit: BTW, I've recently come to the realization that the perfect absence of evidence for or against God is kind of an anomaly. If God doesn't exist, then it seems likely that some evidence would have presented itself from "before" the Big Bang. How could an unconscious cause have willed that it be hidden so well? But then you can't use the absence of evidence as evidence for the absence of evidence.

Still.

 

[columbus]

VERY interesting comment. Why do you suppose God can't have wishes?

Because wishes are the result of a being with limited perception and power being dissatisfied with Creation and imagining one that better suits. We humans are prone to that. An omnimax God is incapable of it.
It is illogical to posit an omnimax God that is dissatisfied with Creation.

By "omnimax" I mean "omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent". Modern Abrahamic religionists commonly describe God that way.
Tom

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Because wishes are the result of a being with limited perception and power being dissatisfied with Creation and imagining one that better suits. We humans are prone to that. An omnimax God is incapable of it.
It is illogical to posit an omnimax God that is dissatisfied with Creation.

By "omnimax" I mean "omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent". Modern Abrahamic religionists commonly describe God that way.
Tom

But there's one other quality God has, It's alone. God could create a septabajillion angles, but they wouldn't be free agents he could exchange thoughts with knowing those thoughts were their own. It couldn't be surprised, or disappointed, or delighted, or It's work appreciated. Only all knowing. An omnipotent being should also have the power to set some information beyond It's own ability to predict--not that God couldn't take it all back at a moment's notice.

Please note my small but appropriate divine comedy, here:

***BIG BANG!***

<<><>><<><>>

<<><><><>><<><><><>>

<<><>The Universe Begins<><>>


God (Voiceof James Earl Jones) : Gabriel, isn't this a beautiful universe I created?
Gabriel (Voice of Sylvester Stallone): Yes Boss.
God: (Sigh). Adam, what about you, what do you think of the universe?
Adam (voice of Eddie Murphy): Oh, it’s absolutely delightful. I particularly like those sparkly little galaxies, and you just can't beat a brilliant sunset by the ocean or a thunderstorm over the Grand Canyon. I won't even go into women, you hit the jackpot with that one. But those black holes are a holy terror. And WHY is everything SO----FAR----APART. Man-o-man, the nearest star is 4 light years away. What were you thinking? And couldn't you at least do something about those damn mosquitoes. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here, but if I'd have arranged things......
God: (Sigh)………(Smile)

 

[columbus]

But there's one other quality God has, It's alone.

I don't believe everything I am told by religionists.

Gravity is unique. Doesn't mean it wishes it dropped more rain on the Sahara desert and decides to change.
Tom

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

The punishment during worldly life ceased when Allah swt revealed the Torah.
Before Torah there were miraclous punishment for those who challenged The Supreme Creator.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I don't believe everything I am told by religionists.

Gravity is unique. Doesn't mean it wishes it dropped more rain on the Sahara desert and decides to change.
Tom

(Gravity????) I equate Truth with God, and just as there can only be one whole Truth, there can only be one God. If, somehow, things started out with polygods, they would all naturally accrete into one, or one would eventually dominate and absorb the rest. As for angels and such, see my little play above.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The punishment during worldly life ceased when Allah swt revealed the Torah.
Before Torah there were miraclous punishment for those who challenged The Supreme Creator.

All the divine revelation we have (so far) is either misinterpretation, hearsay, or fabrication. As such, none of it has any divine authority, only that based on the charisma of it's issuer. All such religions have been backing and filling since records were written. So if all you can do is point to some ancient prophet, please understand you're going to need God to come down and validate your parking. But since God hasn't interfered since the Creation, if then, it ain't happening.--Shalom

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

All the divine revelation we have (so far) is either misinterpretation, hearsay, or fabrication. As such, none of it has any divine authority, only that based on the charisma of it's issuer. All such religions have been backing and filling since records were written. So if all you can do is point to some ancient prophet, please understand you're going to need God to come down and validate your parking. But since God hasn't interfered since the Creation, if then, it ain't happening.--Shalom

Dude just wait for the death and see if u will be talking tough and brave like u do now