December?

[sojourner]

yes Jesus was showing how easy it will be to heal people, he was showing on a small scale how it will be on a large scale when sickness will be no more , that is what WILL HAPPEN through Gods kingdom. imagine a world with nomore people sick .
And no resident will say: "I am sick." The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.isaiah 33;24 there will come a time when no people are sick

(Revelation 21:4) And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

(Revelation 22:2) down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.​

That is inconsistent with the Biblical world view.

 

[may]

That is inconsistent with the Biblical world view.

bible promises always comes true , regardless of what people may teach . it is only throughJehovah and his son Jesus, that all of the blessings for the future will be realized. and Jesus when on the earth was showing the power of his father Jehovah working through him. healing, bringing back to life, ect,ect, and that is the promise for the whole earth , and things are moving ever foreward to that grand purpose to have Jehovahs will done on the earth ALL TO THE PRAISE OF THE MOST HIGH PSALM 83;18 yes great blessing are in store

(Isaiah 25:8) He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].
​

(1 Corinthians 15:26) As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.
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[sojourner]

And this has to do with whether it's OK to celebrate the Nativity on December 25...how?

 

[may]

And this has to do with whether it's OK to celebrate the Nativity on December 25...how?

believe it or not it has a lot to do with it , pure worship is the way to go if we are to gain the promises in the bible , and mixing true with false does not go well with the true God .
many people have been deceived into believing that they worship the true God, while in reality they offend him.
Is the celebration of Christ’s birth supported in the Bible? What is behind this popular celebration held every December 25th?
the Christian Church in the 4th century found it convenient to take over the sacred pagan day of December 25th
the original pure Christian congregation was corrupted. Going from bad to worse, apostate Christians justified their course by giving the pagan celebrations a "Christian" name.
birthday of the sun became birthday of the Son of God:
early Christians did not celebrate the birthday of Jesus:
absolutely no biblical authority for December 25:
let’s rather be honest and turn Christmas back into the pagan feast that it was in the beginning:

Where, then, did the Christmas celebration of December 25th originate? The book Celebrations—The Complete Book of American Holidays by Robert J. Myers answers: "Prior to the celebration of Christmas, December 25 in the Roman world was the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. This feast, which took place just after the winter solstice of the Julian calendar, was in honor of the Sun God, Mithras."​

"Besides the Mithraic influence," Myers continues, "other pagan forces were at work." The Romans celebrated the licentious festival of the Saturnalia during the latter part of December, and, as Myers explains: "The clergy eventually brought the upside-down world of the Saturnalia into the Church itself." No wonder the book Christmas Customs Around the World reports: "The Puritans showed their disdain for this pagan festival by planning hard work for the day and passing a law forbidding the celebration of Christmas"!

 

[sojourner]

believe it or not it has a lot to do with it , pure worship is the way to go if we are to gain the promises in the bible , and mixing true with false does not go well with the true God .
many people have been deceived into believing that they worship the true God, while in reality they offend him.
Is the celebration of Christ’s birth supported in the Bible? What is behind this popular celebration held every December 25th?
the Christian Church in the 4th century found it convenient to take over the sacred pagan day of December 25th
the original pure Christian congregation was corrupted. Going from bad to worse, apostate Christians justified their course by giving the pagan celebrations a "Christian" name.
birthday of the sun became birthday of the Son of God:
early Christians did not celebrate the birthday of Jesus:
absolutely no biblical authority for December 25:
let’s rather be honest and turn Christmas back into the pagan feast that it was in the beginning:

Where, then, did the Christmas celebration of December 25th originate? The book Celebrations—The Complete Book of American Holidays by Robert J. Myers answers: "Prior to the celebration of Christmas, December 25 in the Roman world was the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun. This feast, which took place just after the winter solstice of the Julian calendar, was in honor of the Sun God, Mithras."​

"Besides the Mithraic influence," Myers continues, "other pagan forces were at work." The Romans celebrated the licentious festival of the Saturnalia during the latter part of December, and, as Myers explains: "The clergy eventually brought the upside-down world of the Saturnalia into the Church itself." No wonder the book Christmas Customs Around the World reports: "The Puritans showed their disdain for this pagan festival by planning hard work for the day and passing a law forbidding the celebration of Christmas"!

Look at what I've highlighted in red. Then take a look at Matthew 2. The Magi traveled a long way to celebrate the birth of the Christ. Then take a look at Luke 2. The Angels celebrated by singing a song to the shepherds. The shepherds celebrated by "glorifying and praising God" (LK. 2:20a). Of course the celebration of the birth of the Christ is Biblical.

Origins don't really matter. As I've said before, Christianity is pan-cultural. That means that Xy can (and does) work in any culture -- even pagan ones. Why is it so wrong to take a pagan festival and give it new meaning -- a Christian meaning -- and still retain the date of the festival? Wouldn't that serve to lend credence to the superiority of the Christian meaning?

Concerning your statement in blue: Notice that Puritanism is no longer extant.

 

[may]

Why is it so wrong to take a pagan festival and give it new meaning --

this reminds me of another time that a festival was set up ,
After they left Egypt, the Israelites made a golden calf to worship. In addition to the warning against idolatry, there is another important lesson in this account. The Israelites disobeyed clear direction from Jehovah. (Exodus 20:4-6) Yet, they did not intend to reject Jehovah as their God. They made sacrifices to the molten calf and called the occasion ". A FESTIVAL TO JEHOVAH Somehow they deceived themselves into thinking that God would ignore their disobedience. This was an insult to Jehovah, and it angered him greatly.—Exodus 32:5, same thing with the christmas festival

 

[Dream Angel]

this reminds me of another time that a festival was set up ,
After they left Egypt, the Israelites made a golden calf to worship. In addition to the warning against idolatry, there is another important lesson in this account. The Israelites disobeyed clear direction from Jehovah. (Exodus 20:4-6) Yet, they did not intend to reject Jehovah as their God. They made sacrifices to the molten calf and called the occasion ". A FESTIVAL TO JEHOVAH Somehow they deceived themselves into thinking that God would ignore their disobedience. This was an insult to Jehovah, and it angered him greatly.—Exodus 32:5, same thing with the christmas festival

Youll have to correct me if I am wrong, as I have not read the bible and I am going by the film I have seen "In the beginning" - its a lovely film and I thought it was quite accurate! The time they made the golden calf was when moses went up the mountain? at the time he recieved the ten commandments? Didnt they build that as they didnt believe moses anymore because he had been such a long time and they thought he had deserted them? They were praying to their God (s) whom they worshipped before they new of the "God" we know today, not necessarily the God of moses (or thats how the film portrayed it). However this is completely different as they were CLEARLY worshipping a different God which is against one of the ten commandements. The christmas festival is celebrating the birth of his son and therefore worshipping the true God so will not anger him!

"GOOD OVERCOMES EVIL"! I think this is why they put christmas on the pagan festival.

for example if you take fire to be the pagan festival and water to be the birth of christ. Would you not use the water to put out the fire? What your saying is, you would rather let the fire burn on and the "evil" continue- surely this would be a great insult to God, than stamping out the fire with Good!

 

[sojourner]

this reminds me of another time that a festival was set up ,
After they left Egypt, the Israelites made a golden calf to worship. In addition to the warning against idolatry, there is another important lesson in this account. The Israelites disobeyed clear direction from Jehovah. (Exodus 20:4-6) Yet, they did not intend to reject Jehovah as their God. They made sacrifices to the molten calf and called the occasion ". A FESTIVAL TO JEHOVAH Somehow they deceived themselves into thinking that God would ignore their disobedience. This was an insult to Jehovah, and it angered him greatly.—Exodus 32:5, same thing with the christmas festival

Your example is not cogent to the argument. Your exegisis is not on the mark here.
First of all, the narrative as we have it today dates from a later controversy surrounding the use of images in the worship of YHWH.

Second, It is not YHWH they want to replace, but leadership. Moses has left them, and they don't know what has happened to him. Moses' leadership is rejected in favor of what is seen to be a more convincing representation of deity. (This is similar to the people's request for a visible king.) They find comfort in the representations that they have been familiar with in Egypt.

Third, the language surrounding the calf does not indicate whether it is a calf, or a bull. That ambiguity is important, because, in ancient Canaanite culture, a calf represented Baal, the son of El (the creator God). A full-grown ox represented El.

Here we have a substitution of one religious tradition for the religion of YHWH. This is not so in the celebration of Christmas. We don't use other representations for the Holy Family. We don't substitute God's design for something else that's only sham. In the Nativity story, we celebrate the fulfillment of the prophecy and the promise of God with us. The dynamic is the opposite. That we have taken a pagan holiday and given it new and Biblical meaning, consistent with Biblical Tradition, is significant for the case of Christianity being a pan-cultural religion.

This is similar to Peter's experience in Acts 11, among the Gentiles. In that story, a "pagan" food ritual is taken and usurped for Christ by Peter. A good example of the same kind of dynamic at work in the Christmas question.

 

[Dream Angel]

May - you never answered my question from ages ago when I was saying about not celebrating birthdays at all - including Jesus'. I said, if you are not allowed to celebrate a birthday, can you show no joy at the birth of your child, as technically that is the childs birthday?

 

[may]

Youll have to correct me if I am wrong, as I have not read the bible and I am going by the film I have seen "In the beginning" - its a lovely film and I thought it was quite accurate! The time they made the golden calf was when moses went up the mountain? at the time he recieved the ten commandments? Didnt they build that as they didnt believe moses anymore because he had been such a long time and they thought he had deserted them? They were praying to their God (s) whom they worshipped before they new of the "God" we know today, not necessarily the God of moses (or thats how the film portrayed it). However this is completely different as they were CLEARLY worshipping a different God which is against one of the ten commandements. The christmas festival is celebrating the birth of his son and therefore worshipping the true God so will not anger him!

"GOOD OVERCOMES EVIL"! I think this is why they put christmas on the pagan festival.

for example if you take fire to be the pagan festival and water to be the birth of christ. Would you not use the water to put out the fire? What your saying is, you would rather let the fire burn on and the "evil" continue- surely this would be a great insult to God, than stamping out the fire with Good!

the point i was making was that calling false worship true worship, is not good in Jehovahs eyes. these were people who had Jehovah as their God , but had disobeyed him by doing things of false worship , then they got to calling it a festival to Jehovah. what they were doing was wrong in Jehovahs eyes , so calling it ....a festival to Jehovah..... did not make it right . its the same with taking on pagan symbols such as the cross , it is not good in Gods eyes especially when we know that it is a pagan symbol and has its roots in pagan worship .

​

(Exodus 20:4) "You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

(Nehemiah 9:18) Yes, when they had made for themselves a molten statue of a calf and began to say, ‘This is your God who led you up out of Egypt,’ and they went on to commit great acts of disrespect,

(Psalm 106:20) So that they exchanged my glory For a representation of a bull, an eater of vegetation.
​

(Romans 1:23) and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things.

 

[may]

May - you never answered my question from ages ago when I was saying about not celebrating birthdays at all - including Jesus'. I said, if you are not allowed to celebrate a birthday, can you show no joy at the birth of your child, as technically that is the childs birthday?

sorry i must have missed it . Did you know that the birthday celabration has its roots in false worship. that is not to say that when a baby is born we show no joy , it is a joyful thing indeed . but were you aware that the early christians did not celabrate birthdays because of the false things attached to it .
the birthday party was originally intended to make a person safe from evil and to insure a good year to come.’—Birthday Parties Around the World, 1967.
For example: "The reason [for using candles] goes back to the early Greeks and Romans who thought that tapers or candles had magical qualities. They would offer prayers and make wishes to be carried up to the gods by the flames of candles. The gods would then send down their blessings and perhaps answer the prayers.
The Bible has no record that any faithful servant celebrated his birthday. It records birthday celebrations of pagans .
How about the traditional greeting "Happy Birthday"? Says The Lore of Birthdays: "Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . originally the idea was rooted in magic. The working of spells for good and evil is the chief usage of witchcraft. One is especially susceptible to such spells on his birthday, as one’s personal spirits are about at the time. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day."—Page 20.
Although considered to be a harmless secular custom today, birthday celebrations are actually rooted in paganism.
Not surprisingly then, we read in The World Book Encyclopedia: "The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom."—Volume 3, page 416.

 

[Dream Angel]

Exactly! It was false worship!!! They were literally worshipping something else - the calf! Christmas isnt false worship. The pagan festival which shares the day (and for most who arent pagans have forgotten it exists!) is I think worshipping the Sun (Im not sure). Christmas isnt about worshipping the sun, it has nothing to do with the pagan festival! It is celebrating christs birth - that IS NOT false worship!

What christian festivals do you celebrate? If you look hard enough you will prob find soemone elses festival falls on the same day! Does that mean you are False worshipping! No

I think you need to understand what false worship means! False worship is worship something other than our God. Therefore Christmas IS NOT false worship! Schools dont teach that 25th is a pagan festival, they teach it was the birth fo christ! People dont worship the Sun (or whateve it is) on 25th. They pay respects to Christ. Therefore it is NOT false worship!

 

[may]

If you take a few moments to research this subject, you will find that Christmas has no roots in true Christianity. Many Bible scholars of various religious denominations acknowledge this.

 

[Dream Angel]

may - I think you focus too much on what the early christians did! After all, the early Christians would not have had the bible - does that mean the bible is wrong? If so you worship falsely!

The candles on the cake - all they really are is fire. It is not the item that it is evil, it is the way it is used! Does that mean to say all fire is bad. In winter, you dont light a fire to warm yourself up? All they were doing is praying to their Gods. Does that mean praying is pagan then? As long as we dont pray to their gods, it is not false worship!

Take a knife - good or evil? or is it how it is used that determines this. In the hands of a surgeon it is good and can save a life, in the hands of a bad person it can kill and take a life? Does that mean that surgeons shouldnt use knives to save people just because the first way it was used was to kill people in wars hundreds of years ago? No!

You mention the bible not stating birthdays only pagan! The bible also doesnt state many marriages! Only mutiple ones (Abraham I think). Does that mean marriage is pagan and its bad - No! Does it mean we should have mutliple partners! NO!

Remember, the bible was written by MEN hundreda of years AFTER the events. Some gospels were left out - maybe they mention birthdays!

Does the bible mention operations, medicines, tvs etc - NO!!!! because these things didnt exist then! But just because they didnt exist then doesnt mean to say they cant exist now! We have a lot more knowledge now than they did then!

 

[may]

may - I think you focus too much on what the early christians did!quote] yes that is quite right , they were taught by Jesus . and after all, Jehovah did say to listen to Jesus .
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him." and as matthew 28;19-20 says
Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."................... did Jesus say teach them pagan religions and mix it in with my teachings. no he didnt , he said teaching them to observe all the things i have commanded you. and Jesus did not have anything to do with pagan beliefs. and as a follower of Jesus we look to him as our great leader . mixing true with false is not the way to pure worship . of cause everyone is allowed to worship how they want too, but for true christians they would not take on pagan things as it would offend the true God .

 

[may]

The candles on the cake - all they really are is fire.!

did you know that birthday observance has its origin in astrology, which attaches great importance to one’s exact birth date? What about the birthday cake? It appears to be related to the Greek goddess Artemis, whose birthday was celebrated with moon-shaped honey cakes topped with candles
What do the candles mean? "Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods.

 

[may]

You mention the bible not stating birthdays only pagan! The bible also doesnt state many marriages! Only mutiple ones (Abraham I think). Does that mean marriage is pagan and its bad - No! Does it mean we should have mutliple partners! NO!

quote] Jehovah God instituted the marriage arrangment ,
The first human wedding was performed by Jehovah, as described at Genesis 2:22-24.

 

[sojourner]

"The reason [for using candles] goes back to the early Greeks and Romans who thought that tapers or candles had magical qualities. They would offer prayers and make wishes to be carried up to the gods by the flames of candles. The gods would then send down their blessings and perhaps answer the prayers.

I suppose the Jews (who began the worship of YHWH) never burned incense, whose smoke carried their prayers to heaven? I suppose the Christians have not continued that practice? (It is Biblical...) Seems to me that lighting Advent candles and a Christ candle when we celebrate the Incarnation is a good and Biblical thing to do, after all...

 

[sojourner]

Although considered to be a harmless secular custom today, birthday celebrations are actually rooted in paganism.

Worship of YHWH has its roots in pagan myth, as well. El, the Canaanite god of creation is the same El from which your name "Jehovah" is derived. Oops!

 

[may]

Worship of YHWH has its roots in pagan myth, as well. El, the Canaanite god of creation is the same El from which your name "Jehovah" is derived. Oops!

canaanite worship is far removes from true worship. and the true God does not want his people to be involved with pagan things, and that has always been the case .

(Exodus 33:2) And I will send an angel ahead of you and drive out the Ca´naan·ites, the Am´or·ites, and the Hit´tites and the Per´iz·zites, the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites;​

(Joshua 3:10) After that Joshua said: "By this YOU will know that a living God is in YOUR midst, and that he will without fail drive away from before YOU the Ca´naan·ites and the Hit´tites and the Hi´vites and the Per´iz·zites and the Gir´ga·****es and the Am´or·ites and the Jeb´u·sites.
(Deuteronomy 7:1) "When Jehovah your God at last brings you into the land to which you are going so as to take possession of it, he must also clear away populous nations from before you, the Hit´tites and the Gir´ga·****es and the Am´or·ites and the Ca´naan·ites and the Per´iz·zites and the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites, seven nations more populous and mighty than you are.......................