"Days" in Genesis

[Big_TJ]

Hi.
I have a few questions (based on JW's teachings) for my JW friends :

1) What scriptural evidence is there to support JW's teaching that the "day" in Genesis was not a literal 24 hours? Please do not quote 2 Peter (and others) which only tells us that a "day" can have different meanings than "24 hours" (we all know that). What I am looking for is scriptural reason for rejecting that the "day" in Genesis is not a 24hour day.

2) IF the writer had wanted to convey that the "day" mentioned in Genesis was similiar to a 24 hour day as we know it, how, in your opinion, would be the clearest way that the writer could have written the verses?

3) What, in your opinion, is the significance of the writer of Genesis keep using the words "And there came to be evening and there came to be morning" before mentioning " a [x] day?"

4) I have heard someone suggested that anytime a number (or reference to a number) is used before the word "day" then the "day" is always a literal 24 hours. Can you think of any example (outside of Genesis) that would suggest this ascertion is incorrect? I really dont think it is correct but I am yet to find a situation which would prove it wrong.


Thanks in advance!

 

[Pegg]

Hi.
I have a few questions (based on JW's teachings) for my JW friends :

1) What scriptural evidence is there to support JW's teaching that the "day" in Genesis was not a literal 24 hours? Please do not quote 2 Peter (and others) which only tells us that a "day" can have different meanings than "24 hours" (we all know that). What I am looking for is scriptural reason for rejecting that the "day" in Genesis is not a 24hour day.

2) IF the writer had wanted to convey that the "day" mentioned in Genesis was similiar to a 24 hour day as we know it, how, in your opinion, would be the clearest way that the writer could have written the verses?

3) What, in your opinion, is the significance of the writer of Genesis keep using the words "And there came to be evening and there came to be morning" before mentioning " a [x] day?"

4) I have heard someone suggested that anytime a number (or reference to a number) is used before the word "day" then the "day" is always a literal 24 hours. Can you think of any example (outside of Genesis) that would suggest this ascertion is incorrect? I really dont think it is correct but I am yet to find a situation which would prove it wrong.


Thanks in advance!

Hi BigTJ

1. The 'day' in genesis does not have to be literal for a few reasons. There are numerous verses within the first few chapters of genesis itself where the same word applies to different lengths of time:

• Genesis 1:5 God himself is said to divide day into a smaller period of time, calling just the light portion “day.” And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night
• Genesis 2:4 all the creative periods are called one “day”: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day (all 6 days) that Jehovah God made the heavens and the earth
• There are also examples where 'day' (yom) is used for more then a 24hour period such as Zechariah 14:8 which speaks of an entire season as a 'day'. At Genesis 30:14 the harvest is called “The day of harvest” yet a harvest takes place over several weeks, not just one 24hour period.

2. The writer was writing in Hebrew, not english. So he didnt use the word 'day'...he used the word 'YOM' which is a hebrew word that can be used for many different lengths of time.

3. Evening and Morning in our view is figurative. The WT states this about it:
Since the length of each creative day exceeded 24 hours (as will be discussed later), this expression does not apply to literal night and day but is figurative. During the evening period things would be indistinct; but in the morning they would become clearly discernible. During the “evening,” or beginning, of each creative period, or “day,” God’s purpose for that day, though fully known to him, would be indistinct to any angelic observers. However, when the “morning” arrived there would be full light as to what God had purposed for that day, it having been accomplished by that time.

4. Yes i can think of an example where this rule does not apply... there are 7 days mentioned in genesis, each of the first 6 days state that there came to be 'evening and morning', but it does not state that that 7th day had an evening and morning...this is significant because it indicates that the 7th day has not come to a completion yet.
Genesis1:31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.
2 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making
When Moses wrote Genesis, it was in the 15th century bce, and Moses said that the 7th day was a rest day.... If the 'day' refereed to a literal 24 hours, then why was God still 'resting' (progressive action) almost 3,000 years later? This is evidence that the 'day' was not considered by Moses to be 24hours.

 

[Big_TJ]

Thanks for your attempt to answer, Pegg; really appreciate it. However, you broke almost all the rules:

1) What you gave to me is reasons why a "day" can mean something different than 24 hours; we all know that - even the present use of the word "day" can mean different than a 24 hour period. What I was looking for is this: Since a "day" can mean any period of time (which include 24 hours) on what scriptural basis does the JW reject that the "day" mentioned in Genesis was an actual "24 hours"?

2) yes we know that the writer of Genesis used the word "yom" which can mean a period of time. Again, on what basis does the JW reject that the "period of time" does equate to 24 hours?

3) with regards to the claim that a number in front of the word "day" makes the "day" literal, I asked for any evidence outside of Genesis (since it is not widely accepted that the "day" in Genesis is NOT24 hours). You only provided Genesis as evidence. So, can you give me any examples that will not likely be disputed?

4) regarding the "resting" used in your response, isn't this translation found ONLY in the JW's bible (NWT)?

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for your attempt to answer, Pegg; really appreciate it. However, you broke almost all the rules:

1) What you gave to me is reasons why a "day" can mean something different than 24 hours; we all know that - even the present use of the word "day" can mean different than a 24 hour period. What I was looking for is this: Since a "day" can mean any period of time (which include 24 hours) on what scriptural basis does the JW reject that the "day" mentioned in Genesis was an actual "24 hours"?

the scriptural basis is found in the book of Genesis itself where the 12 hours of light was called 'day'
12 hours is 12 less then 24.

2) yes we know that the writer of Genesis used the word "yom" which can mean a period of time. Again, on what basis does the JW reject that the "period of time" does equate to 24 hours?

on the basis that Moses also called all the days of creation, one day.

3) with regards to the claim that a number in front of the word "day" makes the "day" literal, I asked for any evidence outside of Genesis (since it is not widely accepted that the "day" in Genesis is NOT24 hours). You only provided Genesis as evidence. So, can you give me any examples that will not likely be disputed?

Im sure every scripture in the bible is disputed...and every explanation or view is also disputed as you know.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night.

2Peter 3:8 '... one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day'

4) regarding the "resting" used in your response, isn't this translation found ONLY in the JW's bible (NWT)?

some translations dont use the word rest/rested at all....so im not sure if this is an issue.

 

[Big_TJ]

hmm. . . interesting responses; Thanks Pegg.


Just one follow up question to your response to point #3: Can you think about any situation outside of the bible or outside of religion, where the a number is used infront of the word "day" and the "day" is not a literal day(no longer than a 24 hour period) as we know it? I want to see if the ascertion of the fellow is incorrect. As I stated, I think it is but haven't found anything (which is not disputed) to prove it wrong.

Thanks again, Pegg!

Also, for other JWs on the board, would love to get your views on this topic. Pegg's argument is very interesting but I really would love to hear other views.

 

[Pegg]

hmm. . . interesting responses; Thanks Pegg.


Just one follow up question to your response to point #3: Can you think about any situation outside of the bible or outside of religion, where the a number is used infront of the word "day" and the "day" is not a literal day(no longer than a 24 hour period) as we know it? I want to see if the ascertion of the fellow is incorrect. As I stated, I think it is but haven't found anything (which is not disputed) to prove it wrong.

the only examples i can think of is when there is a celebration which continues over several days...ie, the '4th day of christmas' ... when speaking of an extended celebration such as christmas, the 4th day of that celebration would equate to a total of 48hours, not 24.

or an even better example is when a match of 'test cricket' is played, they play for up to five days. On each day there are usually three two-hour sessions.....which means each 'day' amounts to only 6hours of play per day, not 24.

But other then these two examples, the best (imo) would be that 'day' quite literally refers to the 12 hours of the light...the other 12 hours are called 'night'. And when someone says I went out for dinner on the 5th July, they dont mean they went out for 24 hours. Or if they say "On the 4th day of the holidays, we went to the zoo", they dont mean they spent 24hours at the zoo.

 

[Big_TJ]

Sweet!
So with all the examples you mentioned, Pegg, there is no situation that you can think of where a number is used in front of (or in reference to) the word "day" and that "day" is greater than 24 hours, correct?

The point I am trying to get at is this: If we cannot find any example outside of the bible where a number is used in reference to the word "day" and it means longer than a literal day as we know it, wouldn't it be a stretch to view a situation inside the bible where a number is used in reference to the word "day" and the "day" is longer than a literal 24 hours?

In other words, when whoever was dictating to Moses when he assumingly wrote Genesis uses a term such as "the first day" what is it likely that Moses got from this term? It is likely that Moses did not understand what he was writing down?

Thanks again, Pegg.

 

[dantech]

Can I ask,

Why does it matter to you so much if the days of creation lasted 8 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, or 245893215643 years? What difference does it make to you?

Thanks

 

[cataway]

hmm. . . interesting responses; Thanks Pegg.


Just one follow up question to your response to point #3: Can you think about any situation outside of the bible or outside of religion, where the a number is used infront of the word "day" and the "day" is not a literal day(no longer than a 24 hour period) as we know it? I want to see if the ascertion of the fellow is incorrect. As I stated, I think it is but haven't found anything (which is not disputed) to prove it wrong.

Thanks again, Pegg!

Also, for other JWs on the board, would love to get your views on this topic. Pegg's argument is very interesting but I really would love to hear other views.

other views . ...... thats funny stuff

 

[Big_TJ]

Can I ask,

Why does it matter to you so much if the days of creation lasted 8 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, or 245893215643 years? What difference does it make to you?

Thanks

To me it's call "learning", specificallly learning the "whys" of things. I always know of JW's teaching that the "day" in Genesis is not a literal "day" as we know it, however I never heard why they think it doesn't (apart from the fact that "day" can mean many things).

So it only makes sense (imho) to ask this on a JW DIR.

Thanks for your curiosity!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The point I am trying to get at is this: If we cannot find any example outside of the bible where a number is used in reference to the word "day" and it means longer than a literal day as we know it, wouldn't it be a stretch to view a situation inside the bible where a number is used in reference to the word "day" and the "day" is longer than a literal 24 hours?

Interesting question....I was just thinking that in certain languages, "A Day" can also mean an "Age" or "a point of time in an Age".
For example, "Today, is the day that we have access to all technologies, internet,...etc." It means, in our time, or our age....

 

[Pegg]

In other words, when whoever was dictating to Moses when he assumingly wrote Genesis uses a term such as "the first day" what is it likely that Moses got from this term? It is likely that Moses did not understand what he was writing down?

Thanks again, Pegg.

well frankly, Moses didnt use the word 'day'

He used the hebrew word Yom. So you would need to ask the people who translated the hebrew scriptures into english to find out what they thought Yom meant to them at the time.

That same word is used throughout the scriptures in a variety of ways (even by Moses) which shows that it doesnt mean a strict 24hours as an english person might view it.

 

[Big_TJ]

Interesting question....I was just thinking that in certain languages, "A Day" can also mean an "Age" or "a point of time in an Age".
For example, "Today, is the day that we have access to all technologies, internet,...etc." It means, in our time, or our age....

Yea; you are correct; we know that. The context would be used as a guide to tell whether the day is literal or a metaphor. What I am trying to understand from the JW's point of view is why they think the "day" in Genesis is not literal. What I seem to hear a lot when I ask this question is " day can mean a period of time" which, in my opinion, doesn't really answer the question.

The closest I came to getting a direct answer was Pegg's response that Moses also refer to the entire creation period as a day. Not a strong arguement in my opinion, but at least it's a much better response than I had gotten in the past.

 

[Big_TJ]

well frankly, Moses didnt use the word 'day'

He used the hebrew word Yom. So you would need to ask the people who translated the hebrew scriptures into english to find out what they thought Yom meant to them at the time.

That same word is used throughout the scriptures in a variety of ways (even by Moses) which shows that it doesnt mean a strict 24hours as an english person might view it.

Ok, noted.

One other related question: Do you know if the JW's teaching that the creation day is not a literal day, or that the evening and morning mentioned in Genesis was not literal "evening and morning" dates back to Charles Russell's time?

 

[allright]

The best indication the days are not 24 hours is that for the first six days the Bible ends each day "so the evening and morning were the ______ day."
The seventh day is never said to end nor is evening or morning mentioned Were still living in the
seventh day

 

[Pegg]

Ok, noted.

One other related question: Do you know if the JW's teaching that the creation day is not a literal day, or that the evening and morning mentioned in Genesis was not literal "evening and morning" dates back to Charles Russell's time?

Hi,

Yes it does. In 1912, the bible students began to put together an 8hour long photographic slide and motion picture production, complete with color and sound, called the “Photo-Drama of Creation.” when brother Russel appears in the film, he uses the word 'epoch' and says each creative day spanned millions of years.

I was amazed when i saw that film (you will find it on you tube) because I realised just how thorough the bible students had been studying the intricate details of the bible....it wasnt only doctrines they were overturning, but even long held false understandings of the hebrew language.

 

[Big_TJ]

Hi,

Yes it does. In 1912, the bible students began to put together an 8hour long photographic slide and motion picture production, complete with color and sound, called the “Photo-Drama of Creation.” when brother Russel appears in the film, he uses the word 'epoch' and says each creative day spanned millions of years.

I was amazed when i saw that film (you will find it on you tube) because I realised just how thorough the bible students had been studying the intricate details of the bible....it wasnt only doctrines they were overturning, but even long held false understandings of the hebrew language.

Thanks, Pegg; I will have a look at this. Always appreciate your patience with me; I know i ask a lot of stupid questions at times. :yes:

 

[Pegg]

Thanks, Pegg; I will have a look at this. Always appreciate your patience with me; I know i ask a lot of stupid questions at times. :yes:

you are most welcome... your questions arn't stupid, all questions are good.

 

[Big_TJ]

The best indication the days are not 24 hours is that for the first six days the Bible ends each day "so the evening and morning were the ______ day."
The seventh day is never said to end nor is evening or morning mentioned Were still living in the
seventh day

This seems to be a stretched interpretation, but I get your point.

Thanks for your input.