Creationists vs. Scientists. Who Cares?

[Khale]

Maybe I am the only one who thinks this, but why does either camp (science and religion) care so much about the beginning of the earth.

For religion, it doesn't particularly matter whether or not your deity/s created the earth. The message stays the same. Plus, how many texts state that you must believe in that your deity created the earth? The majority of religions I know of simply say that you need to believe in the deity itself, if that; the rest is just icing-ish on the cake.

For science, it doesn't particularly matter what the religion camp believes. If you, after years of trying, finally convince one of them that you are right, what have you changed in their life? Nothing. They now know a single fairly useless fact that will only help them out in pre-school jeopardy. (There may be some other uses, but this is an angry rant!)


In conclusion, please, explain to me why it matters.

 

[Engyo]

This is almost a Buddhist outlook. When the Buddha was asked how the earth came to be, and where people came from, he said that it doesn't really matter. What matters is what one does here, now, today, in this life; not the origins question.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For science, it doesn't particularly matter what the religion camp believes.

Ignorance matters, and it greatly matters when attempts are made to have it injected into the science curriculum.

 

[michel]

I Know, I know, I know - and yet I still NEED to question that....... I wish I didn't. I wish I could addopt the Buddhist way of looking at this, which I KNOW is the way to see it.

I think the root of my problem is in that my Father was an engineer (his whole life was therefore devoted to science & logic). He (for a reason that is not necessary to explain) built a rigid steel barrier because he could never stand emotion - he shut emotion out of his life - everything had to be disected to a science 'level'.

I am sure I have inherited that trait from him; it is certainly what has kept me going for many years (pretending I was Mr average) when I needed to do so, in order to support my family. Now, I have probably swung to periods of ridiculous emotionalism, and yet that blasted trait of 'I need to know' still exists.

The main reason I have replied to this thread in such a manner is that I still strive for the acceptance, to help me rid myself of this self administered punitive trait .

Is there anything you can suggest - reading material especially devoted to this discipline; methods of gaining acceptance ? I would be so pleased if you could help me.

 

[jeffrey]

I agree, it doesn't really matter. I think a lot of us just have a quest for knowledge, like for me, I still for the life of me figure out how a tv works. I mean to be able to take a picture, transform it into a unseen wave, at the other end have a device that recieves that wave and transforms it into the exact same picture that was at the other end. It amazes me. But I guess in the end, to me, it doesn't really matter how it works, as long as it does work.

 

[Melody]

I agree that it doesn't really matter. They teach evolution in school and I make sure my kids know that they're placing a lot of faith in evolution as well. Past that point....it's not a big deal to me.

 

[cmotdibbler]

That's funny, my wife's church teaches a mild form of creationism and I make sure my kids know that is only based on faith.

 

[Original Freak]

It matters and here's why...

If your a fundamentalist...and all the evidence shows your wrong you either change you entire belief system or try to prove it right...hence the creatinist side.

If your a scientist and you have a bunch of evidence showing something but someone comes along and tries to manipulate that evidence and incorrectly use it to prove their point you want to correct those errors and the credability of your work.

 

[cmotdibbler]

Exactly Freak,
Biblical literalists and biologists will never play nice together since the issue of origins is hugely important to both groups. There just is precious little wiggle room to even incorporate even a small bit of the other side's view. (My bias toward the biological sciences is showing... geologists and astronomers also have a vested interest in debunking young earth creationism, also I cannot comment about the origins beliefs of non-christians).

Origins is less of a firebrand issue to moderate christians since they can include some aspects of evolution in the creation event (ID, old earth creationism, etc). Scientists/engineers/physicians outside the fields of biology or geology don't deal with origins issues on a daily basis which is where quite a few of the ID scientists come from. Insert the usual warning about over-generalizing the issue.

But while the spiritual and scientific-types struggle with these issues on a personal and professional levels where it really gets heated is when either side tries to promote their viewpoint in the educational system and anytime you start talking about religion, politics and children the media goes into a feeding frenzy. I don't really see a solution that would make everyone happy.

 

[Scuba Pete]

There is a great deal of over-simplification here and even more gross generalization.

I am a "fundamentalist" and I have no issues with science.

Science does not try to identify the impetus for our existence. That's for religion!

Religion does not try to describe the mechanics of our existence. That's for science!

You can not describe the spiritual in terms of the physical.

You can not describe the physical in terms of the spiritual.

Those who do so (theists and atheists alike) have flawed agendas.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Religion does not try to describe the mechanics of our existence. That's for science!

Have you ever been to Kansas?

 

[Original Freak]

Have you ever been to Kansas?

You beat me to it....

 

[Scuba Pete]

I lost my dog Toto there.

 

[Khale]

Ignorance matters, and it greatly matters when attempts are made to have it injected into the science curriculum.

You know, I was thinking about this when I wrote this thread and in cases where religion is being injected into the government run education system; that could be a problem. However ignorance on certain situations isn't exactly life threatening. If a person believes that the world was created by a deity what harm is being done?

Is there anything you can suggest - reading material especially devoted to this discipline; methods of gaining acceptance ? I would be so pleased if you could help me.

The best advice I could give you is to suround yourself with people who have a variety of beliefs. You don't need to be 100% accepting to start, but as long as you at least listen acceptance will gradually come. So really, all you need to do is keep hanging around here.

If your a fundamentalist...and all the evidence shows your wrong you either change you entire belief system or try to prove it right...hence the creatinist side.

I believe this is the point I was trying to make, finding that the earth wasn't created in seven days should not change your entire belief system. Religions aren't based entirely on their creation stories.

If your a scientist and you have a bunch of evidence showing something but someone comes along and tries to manipulate that evidence and incorrectly use it to prove their point you want to correct those errors and the credability of your work.

As, I stated above, I can understand if people are tryinng to force it into the government run education system. However, I was reffering more to the people who go out of their way to quash others beliefs in a divine creation.

 

[cmotdibbler]

In my post I *said* it was a over-generalization. The point was why origins is such a hot issue for fundamentalists and scientists. I merely claim that it gets particularly heated when creationists try to put creationism or ID into the science curriculum.

As far as science not taking on issues of spirituality, I'm not so sure. Already we are seeing interesting developments in in the field of neuroscience that coupled with the genomics and proteomics research that could shed some light on many aspects of human behavior. If they are trying to link genetics to personality traits, mental illness, socialization, etc. who's to say nobody will take a look at a relationship between genetics and spiritual beliefs?

Should science stop at this point just because it might make some people uncomfortable?
How to perform such a study to quantitate religious belief and taking into account environmental factors will certainly be as difficult as the studies trying to find a correlation between intelligence and genetics.

Hypothetically, let's say it is some time in the future and the various genetic pathways important to human behavior are well understood. It is shown in studies that over-expression of gene X results in a 70% probability that an individual will be a fundamentalist belief in the local diety. You being a fundamentalist get a genome scan (GATTACA style) and find that yes, gene X is overexpressed. Would you re-examine your faith? Prenatal testing shows that your child will not be expressing the gene (will be an atheist). Being a fundamentalist, what do you do?

BTW, there has been a study linking human spirituality about a god gene (VMAT2) by behavioral geneticist Dean Hamer at NIH. There are critics of the study in both the religious and scientific communities. But what this boils down to is that science is starting to address issues of spirituality. Whether they should is a whole different issue.

 

[Scuba Pete]

However ignorance on certain situations isn't exactly life threatening. If a person believes that the world was created by a deity what harm is being done?

Deut has yet to prove that belief in a world created by God is in fact "ignorance". As soon as he can prove that God had no hand in the creation of the world, then we can ascribe to his blind faith.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Deut has yet to prove that belief in a world created by God is in fact "ignorance".

Why do you find it necessary to distort my postition? You are clearly intelligent enough to understand the difference between castigating theism as ignorance and castigating creationism as ignorance, so I find no way to explain your comments other than as disingenuous demogoguery. You're typically better than that.

 

[Khale]

Deut has yet to prove that belief in a world created by God is in fact "ignorance". As soon as he can prove that God had no hand in the creation of the world, then we can ascribe to his blind faith.

The point of this thread was that it doesn't matter whether or not he believes it was ignorance. He doesn't need to prove it anymore than you do.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You know, I was thinking about this when I wrote this thread and in cases where religion is being injected into the government run education system; that could be a problem. However ignorance on certain situations isn't exactly life threatening. If a person believes that the world was created by a deity what harm is being done?

What harm would it do if we simply got rid of all classes on geology, anthropology, and paleontology? What about teaching alchemy in chemistry classes, or astrology along with atronomy and physics? Perhaps we should take time in biology to suggest that AIDS may be God's response to homosexual abominations?

Personally, I'm a big fan of home schooling. If parents wish to bring up their children steeped in nonsense, it is fine with me - though I certainly pity the kids. But I want my grandkids studying science in science class.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You are clearly intelligent enough to understand the difference between castigating theism as ignorance and castigating creationism as ignorance

That's the POINT Deut. Intolerance is wrong no matter WHICH side of the argument you side with. Those who claim "intelligence" as the basis for their bias are no different from those who claim to be "enlightened". Condescension will never be "OK" in my book.

Your labeling of any and all faith based concepts as "rubbish" exposes your bias towards the physical. It's your right to believe that all faith is garbage, but please extend the same right for those who have a bias towards the spiritual to see your blind reliance on science as garbage also.