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Creation and Evolution

A Troubled Man

Active Member
When the solution is simple, God is answering.

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.
Albert Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Albert Einstein
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Fondi is a hack and stands in the minority with those like him and they're up against a mountain or testable evidence. So it's hard to even take him serious. As we can clearly see below...he's completely wrong.






We've explained to you over and over and over that Evolution is not about the (origins) of life. It deals with the change in life over time. Evolution isn't one thing. It encompasses many mechanism. One of them is (Descent With Modification). With that alone I have shattered your assertion that ("evolution is not real"). I don't need to introduce any other evidence than that. The fact of the matter is NO ONE disagrees with that mechanism. Not creationist and certainly not biologist.

Depends on the definition one uses for evolution. To some evolutionists, "evolution = change" even if the change is the size or shape of a bird's beak. That is NOT what most people think of when the word "Evolution" is used, as you well know. Thus, it is misleading to claim "Evolution" means simply "descent with Modification". Evolutionist Jeffrey H. Schwartz wrote that natural selection may be helping species adapt to the changing demands of existence, but it is not creating anything new.(Sudden Origins-Fossils, Genes, and the Emergence of Species, pp. 317-320)
Evolution cannot explain the origins of the very thing it claims to explain, i.e. the diversity of life. It is a theory without a foundation, and claiming that life's beginning doesn't concern evolution is just a convenient way to dodge the question.

 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What's more, rusra, the Bible, if taken literally, gives a nonsensical story of the order of creation over those six days, nor does it "explain" the mechanism by which life began.

As mentioned in other posts, the creative "days" of Genesis are not 24-hour periods.
Of course, the Bible does explain the mechanism by which life began. "How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions." (Psalm 104:24,25) "You ar worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things." (Revelation 4:11)



 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
Evolution cannot explain the origins of the very thing it claims to explain, i.e. the diversity of life.d

Yes, it does, as it's second postulate after that of Natural Selection.

It is a theory without a foundation, and claiming that life's beginning doesn't concern evolution is just a convenient way to dodge the question.

That would be an excuse to dodge understanding what evolution is all about.
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
Of course, the Bible does explain the mechanism by which life began. "How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions." (Psalm 104:24,25) "You ar worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things." (Revelation 4:11)

"goddidit" is not an explanation, it's an assertion.
 
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Albert Einstein

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
Albert Einstein. It is clear he was a Believer in a impersonal creator God.
 
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Albert Einstein

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
Albert Einstein
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You want to talk facts? Okay, here are a few facts:

Creationism cannot explain any of the above. Evolution, on the other hand, can and does. Evolution, despite your assertions to the contrary, is quite real.



No, it doesn't. The Bible merely asserts that god magically poofed everything into existence. It doesn't explain anything.

Beyond that (and this is something that has already been explained to you numerous times) evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. Evolution simply deals with life's diversity.

To say that evolution is flawed because it doesn't explain where life came from is no different than saying that meteorology is flawed because it doesn't explain where the Earth came from. It's dismissal by false association.

Your list of "proofs" for evolution, though long, really doesn't amount to "proof" at all. To cite just one example, "suboptimization" in living things, including DNA, is, in fact, shortsightedness on the part of researchers. Claiming some of DNA is "junk" as some researchers have, is simply wrong. Such DNA constructs regulatory RNA used to control the cells development. "The sheer existence of these exotic regulators suggests that our understanding about the most basic things.. is incredibly naive." (Biologist Joshua Plotkin - Nature magazine)
The fact that living things share common "building material" certainly does not prove evolution. Rather, it is evidence for a Creator who reuses design patterns.
To properly understand any science, it is necessary to understand origins of what is studied, be it meteorology or biology.


 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
The fact that living things share common "building material" certainly does not prove evolution. Rather, it is evidence for a Creator who reuses design patterns.

Seems more like it would be evidence that a creator is using the same "building materials" and not the same design patterns, considering the alleged designs of species are so different from one another.

For example, I can reuse a design pattern on my cnc router and make the final product out of wood, metal or plastic.
 
Yes, those are exactly the kind of lies Einstein referred to as being systematically repeated.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." From what I see he is saying that lies are that he believed in a personal god. That would make him a deist he could not agree that personal god could allow evil in the world. If my understanding is wrong correct me.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Depends on the definition one uses for evolution. To some evolutionists, "evolution = change" even if the change is the size or shape of a bird's beak. That is NOT what most people think of when the word "Evolution" is used, as you well know.

Well I'll be honest, I don't know what an "evolutionist" is. I can say that those of us that accepts the facts of evolution do find the size of bird beaks to be an important aspect of evolution (e.g. Natural Selection)....possibly (sexual selection) as well.


Thus, it is misleading to claim "Evolution" means simply "descent with Modification".

No it's not. Descent With Modification is one of the most recognized aspects of evolution. It's certainly not the only process. This process is not contested by creationist. They object to common ancestry.

Feedback: Not So Common Descent - Answers in Genesis
“Creationists agree with the idea of “descent with modification” but not with the notion of a single common ancestor.”



Evolution cannot explain the origins of the very thing it claims to explain, i.e. the diversity of life.

Again, not "origin of life" but certainly HAS and DOES explain the diversification of life. This is certainly the case with non-human and human primates (What have we got in common with a gorilla? Insight into human evolution from gorilla genome sequence).

It is a theory without a foundation, and claiming that life's beginning doesn't concern evolution is just a convenient way to dodge the question.

You may posit all you like about the origins of life. You're certainly welcome to assert your brand of religion has the answer but the problem you and others like you face is you're incapable of presenting any evidence to your guesses. Evolution is about change in life. What this means is its focus is on existing life. Biologist certainly hypothesize about the origin of life but are humble enough to conclude we just don't know. What is known is that life is evolving and genetics continue to show all life on the planet is related.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Y
To properly understand any science, it is necessary to understand origins of what is studied, be it meteorology or biology.

FALSE...Biologist understand the diversification of life on this planet without ever knowing the origin of life at all.....:rolleyes:
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
To cite just one example, "suboptimization" in living things, including DNA, is, in fact, shortsightedness on the part of researchers. Claiming some of DNA is "junk" as some researchers have, is simply wrong. Such DNA constructs regulatory RNA used to control the cells development.

Some non-coding DNA does serve other functions, no one argues that point. That was well-known before the phrase "junk DNA" was ever coined.

However there have been a number of experiments done where large sections of non-coding DNA were removed or replaced with randomized sequences and the organisms were unaffected. (Example: Megabase deletions of gene deserts result in viable mice : Abstract : Nature)

These sections clearly serve no vital function. The health of the organism is completely unaffected by their loss. Why, if they serve no purpose, would a "designer" bother with them?

The fact that living things share common "building material" certainly does not prove evolution. Rather, it is evidence for a Creator who reuses design patterns.

"Common design, common designer"

I hear this one a lot. However, the wings of a bird, bat, pterosaur, and dragonfly are, so it's claimed, all designed by the same designer as well, even though their forms are drastically different.

Different design, different designer?

Another concept of design that I've seldom seen acknowledged in these type of debates is that, in things we know are designed, the designer can - at any time - go back and scrap the original templates and completely rebuild its designs from the ground up. Evolution, however, would never permit such a thing to happen, because evolution is simply a matter of population genetics and is restricted by the laws of physics and phylogeny.
In evolution, you cannot have an entire suite of functional mutations arise all at the same time as though choreographed to achieve a certain end. Despite what some assert, evolution would never permit one kind of animal to suddenly change into something completely different.
Designers, on the other hand, are not hindered by such rules, especially if they use magic powers instead of natural processes because then there are no rules at all. A designer like a god would be able to create anything it wants, any way it wants, and it would be able to go back and completely change its creations design any time it wanted to. Its creations would not be expected to fall into any nested hierarchy because they would not be the result of common ancestry, and the relationships of said creations wouldn't even have to make sense.

A nested hierarchy like this:

tree3.jpg


which is found by sequencing the genomes of various species, is not what we would expect from a designer. No designed objects that we currently possess (AFAIK) could be made to fit such a tree, let alone one that is confirmed through multiple fields of research (trees like the above are confirmed not only through genetics but also through morphology, physiology and embryological research). The ancestral patterns that emerge through studies of such things as genetic orthologues are patterns of descent, not design.

To claim that "The fact that living things share common "building material" certainly does not prove evolution. Rather, it is evidence for a Creator who reuses design patterns." is a non-starter. Human designers to not "reuse design patterns" as a hard and fast rule, and supernatural designers, as I explained above, would have no reason to at all.
 
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flame93

Member
Even Roman Catholic Church accepted evolution in a sense of physical creation, while spiritual creation is a matter of god. I don't know why there is collective stupidity about "god putting dinosaurs bones to test our faith" in a modern world?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Even Roman Catholic Church accepted evolution in a sense of physical creation, while spiritual creation is a matter of god. I don't know why there is collective stupidity about "god putting dinosaurs bones to test our faith" in a modern world?

The Roman Catholic Church also accepted the inquisitions, with their torture of innocents. Shall I continue on as to what the RC Church accepts? And we should follow them in their acceptane of such teachings and practices?
I don't know who said god put dinosaur bones to test our faith, but it certainly wasn't me.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
FALSE...Biologist understand the diversification of life on this planet without ever knowing the origin of life at all.....:rolleyes:

Biologists CLAIM to understand the diversification of life... but have it all wrong.
But then, much of what scientists "knew" about other sciences also turned out to be wrong. It seems evolutionists are unique in one respect: despite the lack of evidence for their theory, they have convinced themselves and many others that evolution is inviolate dogma, and should not be questioned.
 
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