Convince me that God is loving

[Trailblazer]

That's unfortunate. Let me know how the meeting goes. I'm curious to find out if any (or how many) attempt to convert you.

The meeting went okay. The day got off to a bad start since I could not open my car door on the driver's side, so I had to get in through the passenger's side. I was really worried since I could only open that one door and it is a 4 door vehicle but I was determined to go to the meeting so I went.

I was also anxious since I had to drive clear over to the other side of the city and I am not familiar with the streets over there, but I was determined. I think it was a miracle that I was able to drive through downtown and up to the other side of town and find that Church. Then when I arrived, my door was magically working right again, and the door behind it also opened, so now there is only one door that does not open, but it has been that way for a long time.

Anyhow, the meeting was not what I expected. The ladies were just sitting around chatting about things they had been doing, not talking about their widowhood experiences. Then towards the end of the meeting the organizer of the group said that they used to share their stories but stopped doing that since they used to meet at a restaurant so it was hard to hear people speaking at the long table. Then she asked if anyone wanted to share and I talked a little bit about my experience since my husband passed, including all the con men from dating sites and my life situation now.

The women were older than me, some a lot older and the consensus was that they are not looking to remarry. I can understand that given their ages and life situations but my situation is a lot different. For one thing I am younger and have a lot more financial resources, and for another thing I have no children. Of course all these women had children and grandchildren, so they are not as alone as I am. My mother was widowed when she was 52, lived till 93, but never remarried, but she had three children.

Of course they said a prayer before lunch but they did not talk about God or Jesus, but nobody tried to convert me although one woman invited me to a service at that church. Of course I never said I was a Baha'i.

I am glad I went since I found out about a grief group that one off the woman is attending and another one she knows about, and both those groups are more convenient for me to drive to. They are both Bible-based, but I am curious to see what the Bible says about grief and loss. I think I am going to attend the one group that is every Saturday from 11 am to 1 pm for 10 weeks because it is out in the country not far from me. In fact, it is right around the corner from the old house I lived in for 17 years.

I have a Zoom appointment with my counselor tomorrow so I am going to ask her opinion, if she thinks it would be helpful for me or if she thinks I need it. I certainly don't want to make my feelings worse, but I do feel a need to be with other people who are in a similar situation. It is kind of disconcerting that the Baha'is don't have any kind of group support for members who have suffered grief and loss, but of course Christianity has many churches and many members.

 

[Madmogwai]

I never complained about the suffering that is caused by human free will decisions, I only ever complained about the suffering that is beyond our control, and clearly much of suffering is beyond our control, so it is not anyone's fault.
How do you conclude that Karma is unjust, Good or Bad karma is fished out in direct response to your actions.
Nothing can be more just.

I never expected God to intervene and save humans from their bad decisions. I never expected God to intervene at all. That is what atheists would expect God to do, if He existed.

I do not believe in karma from past lives since I do not believe in reincarnation. Nothing could be more unjust.
We are only responsible for the one life we live and what we do with it.

As a Baha'i, I believe we make mistakes and learn from them and move onwards and upwards.
Baha'is are enjoined to look at our own faults, not the faults of others.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[Madmogwai]

Isaiah 35:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

who needs Satan when you have this

 

[Brian2]

Isaiah 35:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

who needs Satan when you have this

In this case "evil" means the opposite of peace. iow not moral evil.

 

[Madmogwai]

In this case "evil" means the opposite of peace. iow not moral evil.

So are you saying not all Evil is of God.

 

[Brian2]

So are you saying not all Evil is of God.

I don't see that God is the one who does evil at all.
Does "of God" mean that God is ultimately responsible?
If so then it could be said that God is ultimately responsible because He created us and we ended up doing evil. It would be the same as saying that my mother is at least partially responsible for the evil stuff that I have done.

 

[Alien826]

The context is in a Prayer given for the Baha'i Fast (which starts on March 2nd for 19 days).

Here is an extract, it is mentioned near the end of this verse.

"Exalted art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by those whom Thou hast bidden to observe the Fast for the sake of Thy love and good-pleasure, who have demonstrated their allegiance to Thy law and followed Thy verses and precepts, and who have broken their fast while enjoying near access to Thee and beholding Thy countenance. By Thy glory! Since they are turning to the court of Thy good-pleasure, all their days are days of fasting. Were the mouth of Thy will to address them saying: "Observe, for My beauty's sake, the fast, O people, and set no limit to its duration," I swear by the majesty of Thy glory, that every one of them will faithfully observe it, will abstain from whatsoever will violate Thy law, and will continue to do so until they yield up their souls unto Thee, for they have tasted the sweetness of Thy call, and become inebriated with Thy remembrance and praise and with the words proceeding from the lips of Thy command....."

OK, I don't read that as any command to fast to death, as the fast breakers were limiting the fast within the prescribed limit of 19 days. The "until death" bit seems to apply to all "faithful observance".

The context enables us to appreciate that God does as God chooses, and the best choice we have, is to submit. There are quotes from older scriptures about the level of submission required to embrace and be strong in Faith, that God guides us in every age and Islam is all about submission. All this guidance is for our own benefit, so if God says an unlimited fast is to our greatest benefit, a believer will embrace that fast. So a couple of quotes from the Quran we can also consider.

Thus verse says ro me that God's plan for humanity will always dominate over our choices, that is because God knows of our choices before we do, an the plan encompasses those choices.

Quran 28:68 "Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!"

I see this verse indicates that it is God that sets the path and laws that humanity need to follow.

Quran42:13 "He has laid down for you the (same) way of life and belief which He had commended to Noah, and which We have enjoined on you, and which We had bequeathed to Abraham, Moses and Jesus, so that they should maintain the order and not be divided among themselves. Heavy is to idolaters what you invite them to. God chooses whom He please for Himself, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him."

So in context to @Trailblazer, it would be up to my dear friend what she chooses to do if God commanded anything to do with her cats

I don't see how that (last sentence) follows. It seems to me it's saying to obey God not matter what.

Knowing Trailblazer, I am willing to bet God would not offer her that choice

Hopefully not, but he did do that with Abraham when he commanded him to sacrifice his son. Revealing that he didn't mean it doesn't change the fact that Abraham believed he had a choice between doing something horrible and disobeying God.

 

[Alien826]

FYI, the Baha'i 19-day fast is only a fast from sunup till sundown. Even if we did that fast for the rest of our lives we would not die.

Good point. Not much fun though!

 

[Alien826]

If we suffer from the actions of others that is beyond our control, so it is our fate. Since God determines our fate, you can do the math.

So all suffering is the same, no matter how it is caused, 'cos it's all fate? But weren't you saying you were angry at God for non human caused suffering only?

In this life we are given many chances to get it wrong, learn from our mistakes, and then try again and get it right.
If our life is cut short by fate and we do not have as many chances as we needed, God will get recompense us in the afterlife. In addition to that, we can continue to progress forever in the afterlife.

Where does that come from? Even Jesus, in the parable of the sheep and goats, makes it clear that once death closes its door all chances of changing are finished.

What I object to (in general, not just you) is when theists come up against something that doesn't sound too good then add or subtract stuff to make it better. I can see why they do it, it's hard to defend the indefensible, but isn't scripture supposed to be the final determinant?

 

[Alien826]

I don't see that God is the one who does evil at all.
Does "of God" mean that God is ultimately responsible?
If so then it could be said that God is ultimately responsible because He created us and we ended up doing evil. It would be the same as saying that my mother is at least partially responsible for the evil stuff that I have done.

Are you familiar with the saying "the buck stops here"? President Truman had it on his desk, to indicate that as he had ultimate power (in the Administration) he had ultimate responsibility.

Your mother is not responsible for your evil because she could have no knowledge that you would turn out that way. (That's assuming you are evil, which I'm sure you're not). If she had the power to foresee that you would become evil and went ahead and had you anyway, then she would be responsible for what happened, wouldn't she? If you captured a fox and released it into your neighbor's hen house, would you try to avoid responsibility by blaming the fox for what happened? I'm sure the verdict would be that you had full knowledge of what foxes do in hen houses and you would have to pay to replace the hens.

 

[stvdv]

The teaching of Baha'u'llah says the Universe is a reflection of God, but God at the same time transcends the Universe. That is different from the teaching the the Universe is the illusionary appearance of God, which is what I understand about Advaita. Also the soul has the full image of God, but is not a part of God. I hope my understanding of what Advaita is about is adequate.

IMO:

In Hinduism there are 3 stages:
1) Duality = Dvaita
2) Non Duality = Advaita
3) Qualified Non-dualism = Vishishtadvaita

Teaching of Bahaullah as you described seems to me to be 3) Qualified Non-dualism

IMO, it's not about one is good and the other is not or better or different. All 3 can be used when we are on our Spiritual Quest. I believe God will Guide us right. IF you follow Bahaullah you get there, IF I follow Sai Baba I get there also.

Bottom line, God is beyond all 3 paths. The Paths are tools to be used, not the end Goal. Hence Paths may/will be different, BUT God is One.

I hope this clarifies a bit

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is important to note that even if there was no limit on the duration if the 19-day fast, nobody would die, since the Baha'i fast is only from sunup to sundown. It is no big deal. I often go for 12 hours without eating when I am too busy to eat.

Hopefully not, but he did do that with Abraham when he commanded him to sacrifice his son. Revealing that he didn't mean it doesn't change the fact that Abraham believed he had a choice between doing something horrible and disobeying God.

With the interpretation of that prayer, there is no official interpretation, so it can mean both, it just depends on our own frames of references. Setting no duration could also mean it is not limited to 12 hours a day as well. No duration of any time.

Abraham had Faith, Faith that God's Wisdom is above our own and there is purpose in every thing asked of us.

I see that the fast is a bounty, a gift to acknowledge the sacrifice and thank those that gave their lives for the unity of all humanity. All Martyrs that do not deny their faith over penalty of horrific torture and death, to me have partaken of that limitless fast.

I see the point of all these stories are about submission unto God , as if we choose to submit in 100% certitude of faith, God is able to receive us from all of our perplexities.

Another story can be offered, as this type of event also happened with the Bab, with the Commander of the firing squad, who interestingly were a Christian regiment. (We are told there is great wisdom in that fact as well, imagine a regiment of Christians killing the return of Christ, the very person they await)

Sam Khan the Commander of the firing squad did not want to execute the Bab, the Bab said if he was sincere, then carry out his orders, as surely God would receive him from that perplexity. That is exactly what happened. Sam suspended the Bab and Anis (chosen disciple) on a wall ordered the firing squad to shoot, when the smoke cleared from all the reportedly 750 musket shots, it was seen that they had all missed the mark. The Bab was no longer to be found, the ropes cut, the Bab uninjured back in his cell.

In the end, the wisdom of all that is of God, only unfolds to the extent we are willing to submit to God, over our own ideas and worldly desires, that is the quandary we face and that is the path we all get to walk in Faith. Many are the roads, but narrow the gate.

Regards Tony

 

[SDavis]

Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

There is nothing that any Christian will ever say that could convince you that God is loving if you don't already feel it _ you probably never will.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.

Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.

 

[Trailblazer]

@SDavis

Did you mean to comment on my post?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IMO:

In Hinduism there are 3 stages:
1) Duality = Dvaita
2) Non Duality = Advaita
3) Qualified Non-dualism = Vishishtadvaita

Teaching of Bahaullah as you described seems to me to be 3) Qualified Non-dualism

IMO, it's not about one is good and the other is not or better or different. All 3 can be used when we are on our Spiritual Quest. I believe God will Guide us right. IF you follow Bahaullah you get there, IF I follow Sai Baba I get there also.

Bottom line, God is beyond all 3 paths. The Paths are tools to be used, not the end Goal. Hence Paths may/will be different, BUT God is One.

I hope this clarifies a bit

I am seeing the spiritual journey as God providing the Gates of Love and Knowledge under an ongoing Covenant, in every age.

I see we then walk our chosen path, the path we lay out. As such not all paths will lead ro the given Gate in the age we live.

This is a good meditation

Matthew 7:13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

I agree, in the end, it is only God that guides our heart's. We can one and all, walk our paths sharing our Love and Unity.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So all suffering is the same, no matter how it is caused, 'cos it's all fate? But weren't you saying you were angry at God for non human caused suffering only?

All suffering is not caused by fate. Some suffering is the result of our free will choices and we are responsible for that suffering that we cause.

However, if another person made a free will choice that caused us to suffer (such as a rape) we are not responsible for that suffering since it was our fate.

If we had an accident on the highway and we were not the cause of that accident that was our fate. The person who caused it was responsible, but since that was our fate to be a victim, God is also responsible.

The key is that we had no control over either of these events so they were our fate. Since God is in charge of fate, God is partially responsible for these incidents.

Where does that come from? Even Jesus, in the parable of the sheep and goats, makes it clear that once death closes its door all chances of changing are finished.

After we die, our chances of effecting a change in our character are gone, since we no longer have free will to make choices and learn and grow thereby and perfect our character, but we can still advance by the mercy of God and the prayers of others. I believe we can also get help from those who are more advanced than us in the spiritual world. Scriptures do not cover this but you can read about it in other books written by psychic mediums who contacted spirits and those spirits communicated what they are experiencing.

What I object to (in general, not just you) is when theists come up against something that doesn't sound too good then add or subtract stuff to make it better. I can see why they do it, it's hard to defend the indefensible, but isn't scripture supposed to be the final determinant?

Scripture is the final determinant, but have you noticed how many different scriptures there are and how that do not always agree with other scriptures? Then of course we have the interpretation factor, as not all people interpret the same scripture to mean the same thing. Do you see the problem?

Also, scripture is very vague about what the afterlife will be like. Some religious people are satisfied with that but some of us look outside of scriptures for additional information.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you familiar with the saying "the buck stops here"? President Truman had it on his desk, to indicate that as he had ultimate power (in the Administration) he had ultimate responsibility.

Your mother is not responsible for your evil because she could have no knowledge that you would turn out that way. (That's assuming you are evil, which I'm sure you're not). If she had the power to foresee that you would become evil and went ahead and had you anyway, then she would be responsible for what happened, wouldn't she? If you captured a fox and released it into your neighbor's hen house, would you try to avoid responsibility by blaming the fox for what happened? I'm sure the verdict would be that you had full knowledge of what foxes do in hen houses and you would have to pay to replace the hens.

The fact that God has foreknowledge and thus knows what is going to happen in the future is not the cause of what happens. There is no logical connection whatsoever.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

What causes things to happen are human free will decisions and the ensuing actions.
Does an astronomer's knowledge that an eclipse will take place at some time in the future cause that ellipse to take place? If we plan a trip to Hawaii so we know we are going to Hawaii next year, does our knowledge of that cause us to go to Hawaii? No, what causes it is the choice we made and the actions we took to make the trip possible.

Why would God's knowledge of future events be any different? The principle is the same.

God is not responsible for the choices humans make. If humans choose to commit evil they are fully responsible because they have free will to choose. Every court of law knows that.

 

[stvdv]

I see we then walk our chosen path, the path we lay out. As such not all paths will lead ro the given Gate in the age we live

I did not say nor imply that paths are dead ends. Just continue walking until you reach "The Goal", with God being your guide

Note: "My chosen Path" is between "me and God", hence it cannot but lead to God

Hence

Note: The importance of Faith
@stvdvRF

 

[Alien826]

The fact that God has foreknowledge and thus knows what is going to happen in the future is not the cause of what happens. There is no logical connection whatsoever.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

What causes things to happen are human free will decisions and the ensuing actions.
Does an astronomer's knowledge that an eclipse will take place at some time in the future cause that ellipse to take place? If we plan a trip to Hawaii so we know we are going to Hawaii next year, does our knowledge of that cause us to go to Hawaii? No, what causes it is the choice we made and the actions we took to make the trip possible.

Why would God's knowledge of future events be any different? The principle is the same.

God is not responsible for the choices humans make. If humans choose to commit evil they are fully responsible because they have free will to choose. Every court of law knows that.

I think you are missing the point. I'm talking about God's actions, not his knowledge though the two are linked.

If I am simply watching two people fight, I am not responsible when one or both of them gets hurt. (Leave out whether I should have intervened).

If I did something that caused them to fight, then I am responsible, at least partially. If I knew that they would fight as a result of something I did then it gets worse.

Is that clear so far? If you don't agree, we might as well give up.

So God created the universe including us. That's the action. He knew that, given the nature of the universe, there would be suffering of various sorts. He went ahead and created the universe as it is anyway. So, just as I would be responsible if I knowingly caused the people to fight, so God is responsible for everything that has happened in the universe following his creative action. It doesn't have to be bad things, we can be responsible for good things too.

I don't know how I can make it any more plain than that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you are missing the point. I'm talking about God's actions, not his knowledge though the two are linked.

If I am simply watching two people fight, I am not responsible when one or both of them gets hurt. (Leave out whether I should have intervened).

If I did something that caused them to fight, then I am responsible, at least partially. If I knew that they would fight as a result of something I did then it gets worse.

Is that clear so far? If you don't agree, we might as well give up.

Yes, I agree If you did something that caused them to fight, then you are partially responsible.

So God created the universe including us. That's the action. He knew that, given the nature of the universe, there would be suffering of various sorts. He went ahead and created the universe as it is anyway. So, just as I would be responsible if I knowingly caused the people to fight, so God is responsible for everything that has happened in the universe following his creative action. It doesn't have to be bad things, we can be responsible for good things too.

God is partially responsible for everything that has happens in the universe following his creative action, but only because God made it possible by His creative action.

Partially responsible means that God is not fully responsible for everything that happens, good or bad.
God is not responsible for human free will choices and actions since God takes no part in them.

God gave humans free will making it possible for humans to choose to commit evil acts.

If a car manufacturer makes a car that can go very fast, and a man buys the car and chooses to drive way over the speed limit and thereby kills people in an accident, the car manufacturer is not held responsible.