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Conservatives approve gay rulings

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
But to my mind, at least, leaving gay and lesbian Jews in the lurch because one of the Torah authors clearly misunderstood what God was trying to convey, and yet God creates people to be gay and lesbian as well as straight, is simply not an option.
If the scriptural basis for refusing to perform a same-sex Jewish wedding is "because one of the Torah authors clearly misunderstood what God was trying to convey," and if "God creates people to be gay and lesbian as well as straight," and if we are all created Btzelem Elohim, would this not impel us to support and defend such marriages? Would you, for example, perform such a marriage?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
If the scriptural basis for refusing to perform a same-sex Jewish wedding is "because one of the Torah authors clearly misunderstood what God was trying to convey," and if "God creates people to be gay and lesbian as well as straight," and if we are all created Btzelem Elohim, would this not impel us to support and defend such marriages? Would you, for example, perform such a marriage?

I would not perform a same-sex kiddushin marriage, because kiddushin (the traditional methodology of Jewish marriage) is simply unable to legally function like that. And while I think it is extremely unfortunate that the Rabbis constructed it in that fashion, and I wish they had not, I also think that modern rabbis lack sufficient authority to re-write the halachot of kiddushin from the ground up, which they would have to do in order to make it effective for two people of the same gender.

As I said, I am not a fan of kiddushin marriage in any case, even for heterosexuals. I am a fan of the Brit Ahuvim marriage designed by Rabbi Rachel Adler, and altered for increased halachic clarity and effectiveness by Rabbi Amitai Adler, her son. This marriage is based in the halachot of partnership, rather than the halachot of acquisition. I advocate this model even to heterosexual couples. I would absolutely marry two people of the same sex using this model of marriage-- in fact, I have done so.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I would not perform a same-sex kiddushin marriage, because kiddushin (the traditional methodology of Jewish marriage) is simply unable to legally function like that. And while I think it is extremely unfortunate that the Rabbis constructed it in that fashion, and I wish they had not, I also think that modern rabbis lack sufficient authority to re-write the halachot of kiddushin from the ground up, which they would have to do in order to make it effective for two people of the same gender.

As I said, I am not a fan of kiddushin marriage in any case, even for heterosexuals. I am a fan of the Brit Ahuvim marriage designed by Rabbi Rachel Adler, and altered for increased halachic clarity and effectiveness by Rabbi Amitai Adler, her son. This marriage is based in the halachot of partnership, rather than the halachot of acquisition. I advocate this model even to heterosexual couples. I would absolutely marry two people of the same sex using this model of marriage-- in fact, I have done so.

My girlfriend is Hindu and I'm Christian, I would totally have you marry us just to screw with my parents and her parents head.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
My girlfriend is Hindu and I'm Christian, I would totally have you marry us just to screw with my parents and her parents head.

Ha! Unfortunately, while I will absolutely do same-sex weddings, both individuals have to be Jewish. But it would be amusing, you're right.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Ha! Unfortunately, while I will absolutely do same-sex weddings, both individuals have to be Jewish. But it would be amusing, you're right.

Lol understandable.

I always wondered why religious institutions were so against it. From what I saw it just meant that same-sex "marriage" would be considered as legitimate as regular marriage for all the perks and what not. It didn't mean that a religious institution would have to perform it.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
G-d clearly says its an abonimation and is prohibited.

Yes, that is the traditional Orthodox understanding. We choose to believe that those pesukim can mean something else, and that it is not the will of God to believe that homosexuality is an abomination, nor should it be prohibited. Many of our halachists have decided that there are excellent reasons to find new and different halachic solutions, and some, like myself, believe that extremely radical solutions should be taken in the interests of basic human decency, and a theological conviction that God is not cruel or unreasonable.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If the scriptural basis for refusing to perform a same-sex Jewish wedding is "because one of the Torah authors clearly misunderstood what God was trying to convey," and if "God creates people to be gay and lesbian as well as straight," and if we are all created Btzelem Elohim, would this not impel us to support and defend such marriages? Would you, for example, perform such a marriage?
I would not perform a same-sex kiddushin marriage, because kiddushin (the traditional methodology of Jewish marriage) is simply unable to legally function like that.
I do not understand. Please explain.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I do not understand. Please explain.

Kiddushin is predicated on the laws of acquisition as the Rabbis set them forth. In those halachot, there are ways in which women can acquire movable property, land, and certain contractual rights. But they cannot acquire other people in the way a man acquires a woman as a wife or a concubine. The halachic system simply is not constructed with a way for them to do that. It is a kind of acquiring that there is literally no legal way for them to effect. So a woman can neither acquire a man in marriage nor another woman.

A man does have the power to make such an acquisition, but he can only effectively acquire a woman. He cannot acquire another man, because the law does not provide a way for men to be acquired in such a way. A man can acquire another man as a slave or indentured servant, but not as a husband or male concubine (if there were such a thing). There literally exists no mechanism for that kind of acquisition of one man by another in the halachah, and in fact it is specified that attempts to use legal formulae of acquisition on another man have no legal effect.

In order to change these things, and make mechanisms for kiddushin to work with men acquiring other men, women acquiring other women, or for that matter, women becoming the "dominant" partner in the transaction and acquiring men, we would have to re-draw the way that kiddushin marriage works, past its basic foundations, into its roots in the halachot of acquisition, and re-draw them. In other words, we would have to re-create a major section of halachah from the level of Mishnah up.

We don't have the authority to do that. We don't have anywhere close to the authority to do that. It would require the authority of a full Sanhedrin, with ordination of the level not seen since the time of the Tanna'im.

Much as I might believe that gay marriage is right, and Jewish people of the same sex should be able to marry one another, I also believe in the centrality and importance of law, and the functioning of halachah as the framework of Judaism. There is quite literally no way I can, as a halachist, reconcile kiddushin and same-sex marriage-- despite my feelings about the subject.

However, the same issues that make kiddushin non-viable as an option for same sex marriage also make it, IMO, irretrievably problematic as a way of constructing heterosexual marriages also. I really recommend reading Rachel Adler on this-- despite my occasional disagreements with her, I think nobody's done a finer critical analysis of this set of issues than she has. It's absolutely brilliant.

She recognizes-- quite rightly-- that despite the legitimate problems with kiddushin, there is no available halachic solution in terms of altering kiddushin marriage while keeping it halachically valid. Therefore, her solution is ingenious: she sidesteps the whole morass. Rather than getting bogged down in a halachic battle that is unwinnable, she instead creates an entirely new model of marriage, grounded in halachah, but something never done or seen before. As kiddushin is grounded in the halachot governing the transaction of acquisition, her marriage, Brit Ahuvim, is grounded in the halachot governing the formation of partnerships.

The result is a distinctively Jewish marriage ceremony and contract which not only is egalitarian, able to be used by both hetero and gay couples, and is free of troublesome imbalances of power and devaluation, but which is dissolvable at the will of either party, thus also solving the agunah problem (in kiddushin marriages, just as the man acquires the woman, even so only the man has the power to initiate divorce proceedings).

The original Brit Ahuvim, as set forth in Adler's book, left some halachic problems unaddressed. The version I use is the one modified by her son, Rabbi Amitai Adler, a Conservative rabbi, which solves most of the halachic issues unaddressed previously-- at least, solves to Conservative standards. I'm sure none of it would pass muster in Orthodoxy.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the traditional Orthodox understanding. We choose to believe that those pesukim can mean something else, and that it is not the will of God to believe that homosexuality is an abomination, nor should it be prohibited. Many of our halachists have decided that there are excellent reasons to find new and different halachic solutions, and some, like myself, believe that extremely radical solutions should be taken in the interests of basic human decency, and a theological conviction that God is not cruel or unreasonable.
I don't know what bible you use.

This is from the bible that I use.

Deutereonomy 18

22. You shall not lie down with a male, as with a woman: this is an abomination.

G-D states it is an abomination. So no I don't accept gay marriages.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the traditional Orthodox understanding. We choose to believe that those pesukim can mean something else, and that it is not the will of God to believe that homosexuality is an abomination, nor should it be prohibited. Many of our halachists have decided that there are excellent reasons to find new and different halachic solutions, and some, like myself, believe that extremely radical solutions should be taken in the interests of basic human decency, and a theological conviction that God is not cruel or unreasonable.
Who is "we"?

And why do you feel you speak for G-D more than what G-D said?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Who is "we"?

And why do you feel you speak for G-D more than what G-D said?

We is the Conservative movement.

And what I feel is that I don't need to respond to intolerant and non-pluralistic Charedi questions in the Conservative DIR.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
We is the Conservative movement.

And what I feel is that I don't need to respond to intolerant and non-pluralistic Charedi questions in the Conservative DIR.
I am not charedi.

All I am doing is quoting the Torah verbatim.

If you don't believe in it then we are obviously following different bibles and have different values.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the traditional Orthodox understanding. We choose to believe that those pesukim can mean something else, and that it is not the will of God to believe that homosexuality is an abomination, nor should it be prohibited. Many of our halachists have decided that there are excellent reasons to find new and different halachic solutions, and some, like myself, believe that extremely radical solutions should be taken in the interests of basic human decency, and a theological conviction that God is not cruel or unreasonable.

As you know, you and I already spoke about this. The only problem I have with what you wrote here is that you make it seem like your way is the right way because God is understanding, and the orthodox way is wrong because God would need to be cruel.

You may not like that God, perhaps, makes people homosexual against their will in the purpose of a Tikkun, according to some orthodox opinions, but you can in no way say God is cruel because he does. Elu Ve Elu, no?
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
However, the same issues that make kiddushin non-viable as an option for same sex marriage also make it, IMO, irretrievably problematic as a way of constructing heterosexual marriages also. I really recommend reading Rachel Adler on this-- despite my occasional disagreements with her, I think nobody's done a finer critical analysis of this set of issues than she has. It's absolutely brilliant.

She recognizes-- quite rightly-- that despite the legitimate problems with kiddushin, there is no available halachic solution in terms of altering kiddushin marriage while keeping it halachically valid. Therefore, her solution is ingenious: she sidesteps the whole morass. Rather than getting bogged down in a halachic battle that is unwinnable, she instead creates an entirely new model of marriage, grounded in halachah, but something never done or seen before. As kiddushin is grounded in the halachot governing the transaction of acquisition, her marriage, Brit Ahuvim, is grounded in the halachot governing the formation of partnerships.

The result is a distinctively Jewish marriage ceremony and contract which not only is egalitarian, able to be used by both hetero and gay couples, and is free of troublesome imbalances of power and devaluation, but which is dissolvable at the will of either party, thus also solving the agunah problem (in kiddushin marriages, just as the man acquires the woman, even so only the man has the power to initiate divorce proceedings).

Sounds like a plan to me. Pretty intelligent and well articulated. It will be interesting to look at, within the broader context of homosexuality.
 
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