Concerning the Islamic Conception of Jesus

[Trailblazer]

Christians believe this because that is exactly what the New Testament teaches, and nothing else. Claiming that it teaches anything else is wrong. Plain wrong.

And nothing else?

As I just pointed out in my previous post, the NT teaches a whole lot of other things.
But Christians are so obsessed with the resurrection that they only look at one tree and miss the rest of the forest.

The two most important trees in the forest are as follows:

When asked which is the greatest commandment, the Christian New Testament depicts Jesus paraphrasing the Torah: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," before also paraphrasing a second passage; "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Great Commandment - Wikipedia

 

[Sundance]

The problem is that Jesus did not say that; the authors of the NT said that about Jesus.

No, that is not clear as day.
Firstly, Jesus did not say that; the authors of the NT said that about Jesus.
Secondly, even if Jesus did say that we do not know what Jesus meant by temple.
Thirdly, Jesus did not say “The temple that He spoke of was His Body.” Someone else said that because they assumed Jesus meant His body, so that does not answer the second question.

That depends upon what you mean by "the Jewish Messiah." If you mean the Messiah who would fulfill all the messianic prophecies, clearly Jesus was not that Messiah, since he did not fulfill all those prophecies. To say Jesus will fulfill the rest of them when he returns won't work, because Jesus has not returned. I can say I am going to buy a private island after I win the lottery but until I have won the lottery that is just something I am hoping for.

Maybe that is true, the NT teaches these things, but it teaches a whole lot more that you fail to mention.
You completely omit what Jesus actually taught about how we should live, the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, etc. That would like me saying that the Baha'i Faith teaches that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God who was exiled and imprisoned for 40 years and saying that is what the Baha'i Faith is all about, without even mentioning the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

By teachings of Jesus I mean things like this. Jesus was teaching how to attain eternal life.

Matthew 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Firstly, regardless of what we can know for certain (and there isn’t much historically past the Crucifixion and Jesus’s Baptism), we know what is recorded.

Secondly, we know from the context of the events which follow that Jesus meant His Body was going to be raised. C’mon, you can’t be serious, can you?

Third, again regardless of whether or not one believes He fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the Bible, we know that the Scriptures record Jesus as having made the claim. Period. What do you think He was implying when He said, “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!” ?

Fourth, of course Jesus’s Teachings on how to live are important. I’m not arguing that. Actually, to be blunt, this ties into my point. Everything that Jesus said is important for any person who will dare call themselves any believer in Christ Jesus. To follow His Way is to follow every single thing He said. EVERY SINGLE THING AT HIS WORD. Otherwise, forget it. From His Moral and Ethical Teachings, to His Teachings on The Gospel. His Life, Death, Resurrection, Second Coming. All of it is important. All of it. 100% of it. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Go out and preach the gospel.

 

[Sundance]

@Trailblazer

Since we’re talking about who individuals claim themselves to be and whether or not what they say is important, let’s talk about Bahá’u’lláh.

He claims to be the Promised One of all religions, right?

Do you accept His Claim? On what basis?

Do you feel as though this is important to your faith tradition? Why or why not?

Can you remain a Bahá’í if you denied it? Why or why not?

 

[Trailblazer]

Firstly, regardless of what we can know for certain (and there isn’t much historically past the Crucifixion and Jesus’s Baptism), we know what is recorded.

Are you saying that there is historic evidence of the Crucifixion and Jesus’s Baptism?

Secondly, we know from the context of the events which follow that Jesus meant His Body was going to be raised. C’mon, you can’t be serious, can you?

I am dead serious, if you will pardon the pun.
If anyone could ever prove that Jesus said those things you might have a case, but there is no way that Jesus ever said those exact words because there is no way they could have been memorized by the disciples and then told to the gospel writers years later. I am a logical thinker so if religion does not comport with logic it's out.

Just so you'll know, the Baha'i position on the Bible is as follows:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words. (9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Third, again regardless of whether or not one believes He fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the Bible, we know that the Scriptures record Jesus as having made the claim. Period.

I'd like to see the verses that are attributed to Jesus saying that He fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies.
Baha'is believe Jesus was a Messiah and He fulfilled some of them, but not all of them:

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

What do you think He was implying when He said, “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!” ?

He meant that the Kingdom of God was coming, what He told us to pray for in the Lord's Prayer.

Fourth, of course Jesus’s Teachings on how to live are important. I’m not arguing that. Actually, to be blunt, this ties into my point. Everything that Jesus said is important for any person who will dare call themselves any believer in Christ Jesus. To follow His Way is to follow every single thing He said. EVERY SINGLE THING AT HIS WORD. Otherwise, forget it. From His Moral and Ethical Teachings, to His Teachings on The Gospel. His Life, Death, Resurrection, Second Coming. All of it is important. All of it. 100% of it. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Go out and preach the gospel.

His Life, Death, Resurrection, Second Coming are not the teachings of Jesus, they are the teachings of the Church. They are what most Christians "came to believe" because that is what Christianity teaches. They are not what Jesus taught. His Moral and Ethical Teachings, His Teachings on The Gospel, are all that really matters because the bottom line is our eternal life and how we live this life will determine how we will spend all of eternity.

I am not saying that the cross sacrifice does not matter. The following quote explains how it was the Word of God as well as the cross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

 

[Trailblazer]

Since we’re talking about who individuals claim themselves to be and whether or not what they say is important, let’s talk about Bahá’u’lláh.

He claims to be the Promised One of all religions, right?

Do you accept His Claim? On what basis?

Yes, that is what Baha'u'llah claimed and yes, I accept His Claim.
I accept His claim on the basis of all the evidence that supports His Claim.

Do you feel as though this is important to your faith tradition? Why or why not?

Of course it is important to my faith tradition, because if Baha'u'llah was not who He claimed to be then the Baha'i Faith would be a false religion.

Can you remain a Bahá’í if you denied it? Why or why not?

No, I could not remain a Baha'i if I did not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, because that is the edifice upon which my belief rests.

Because I believe He was a Manifestation of God I believe all His claims, because I believe that whatever He wrote is identical with the Will of God.

"The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167

 

[Sundance]

Are you saying that there is historic evidence of the Crucifixion and Jesus’s Baptism?

Not from what I myself am aware of. Though, others more knowledgeable than myself (actually in this very thread a few pages) give sources relating to the Crucifixion. Generally, NT historians, whether religious or secular, concur that these are the two events in Jesus’s life that have the most probability to them.

I am dead serious, if you will pardon the pun.
If anyone could ever prove that Jesus said those things you might have a case, but there is no way that Jesus ever said those exact words because there is no way they could have been memorized by the disciples and then told to the gospel writers years later. I am a logical thinker so if religion does not comport with logic it's out.

Pun pardoned.

In the early days of Christianity, there was very little written down, as everything (or mostly, everything) was passed on by word of mouth from the Apostles — given the commands of Jesus — and then later around the early 50’s CE, Christians began to write, beginning with the Pauline Epistles and then various writings, some of which became canon (like the Four Gospels), others were seen as close (like the Didache), others were wholly rejected.

Just so you'll know, the Baha'i position on the Bible is as follows:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words. (9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

I'd like to see the verses that are attributed to Jesus saying that He fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies.

There are none, because Christians do not teach that He fulfilled all of the prophecies with His First Coming. Some of them, yes. But He will come back a second time to complete His Mission. According to most Jews, though, this is why He was not the Messiah.

Baha'is believe Jesus was a Messiah and He fulfilled some of them, but not all of them:

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-26.html

This is in line with what the New Testament teaches.

He meant that the Kingdom of God was coming, what He told us to pray for in the Lord's Prayer.

His Life, Death, Resurrection, Second Coming are not the teachings of Jesus, they are the teachings of the Church. They are what most Christians "came to believe" because that is what Christianity teaches. They are not what Jesus taught. His Moral and Ethical Teachings, His Teachings on The Gospel, are all that really matters because the bottom line is our eternal life and how we live this life will determine how we will spend all of eternity.

I am not saying that the cross sacrifice does not matter. The following quote explains how it was the Word of God as well as the cross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

Actually, we do know what Jesus taught because, again, what He taught was passed on from the Twelve Apostles, the chief of whom was Peter, whose writings find a place in the New Testament. Additionally, what the Twelve were teaching after the Resurrection, we know from the book of the Acts of the Apostles. They were spreading the Gospel.

Christ’s Words are absolutely important. Equally important are His Actions, including His Death and Resurrection. It’s all part of who He was and what He came to do. It’s why we who are believers have that assurance and we proclaim what we do so boldly, because Christ Jesus manifested all of it; His Life bore witness to the truth of everything He spoke. That’s why every religion that has come since has some kind of place for Him. Even followers of religions which predate Him accord Him some kind of respect.

 

[Sundance]

Yes, that is what Baha'u'llah claimed and yes, I accept His Claim.
I accept His claim on the basis of all the evidence that supports His Claim.

Of course it is important to my faith tradition, because if Baha'u'llah was not who He claimed to be then the Baha'i Faith would be a false religion.

No, I could not remain a Baha'i if I did not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, because that is the edifice upon which my belief rests.

Because I believe He was a Manifestation of God I believe all His claims, because I believe that whatever He wrote is identical with the Will of God.

"The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167

I honor this. This reflects like a perfect mirror how I feel towards Jesus.

You know, @Trailblazer, I sincerely apologize for my arrogance towards your religion. I think you Bahá’ís are doing groovy things in this world, and I’m not hateful towards you or Bahá’u’lláh at all. I recant all my negative thoughts about Bahá’ís or their faith that I may have expressed. I think it’s a beautiful religion, and as I mentioned in my OP, your conception of Jesus Christ is very close to what the New Testament teaches, and you know, I think that Bahá’ís are very similar to Christians in tons of ways that are positive. I consider Bahá’ís my dearly beloved brothers and sisters in humanity, not my enemies nor are they enemies of the Gospel.

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

 

[Trailblazer]

Not from what I myself am aware of. Though, others more knowledgeable than myself (actually in this very thread a few pages) give sources relating to the Crucifixion. Generally, NT historians, whether religious or secular, concur that these are the two events in Jesus’s life that have the most probability to them.

I do not question the Crucifixion because it is validated by Baha’u’llah. As I recall, I think that Jesus’ Baptism is also noted in the Baha’i Writings.

In fact, Baha’u’llah wrote a moving passage about the trial of Jesus:

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133

Pun pardoned.
In the early days of Christianity, there was very little written down, as everything (or mostly, everything) was passed on by word of mouth from the Apostles — given the commands of Jesus — and then later around the early 50’s CE, Christians began to write, beginning with the Pauline Epistles and then various writings, some of which became canon (like the Four Gospels), others were seen as close (like the Didache), others were wholly rejected.

Thanks, I do not know the history that well because I was never a Christian. Most of what I have learned I have learned from posting to Christians on forums during the last seven years.

There are none, because Christians do not teach that He fulfilled all of the prophecies with His First Coming. Some of them, yes. But He will come back a second time to complete His Mission. According to most Jews, though, this is why He was not the Messiah.

Yes, I know why Jews do not believe Jesus was the messiah and Bahaullah had some choice words to say about how and why the Jews rejected Jesus and “therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.”
You can read the whole paragraph on these pages: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 20-21

This is in line with what the New Testament teaches.

Well that’s good to hear.

Actually, we do know what Jesus taught because, again, what He taught was passed on from the Twelve Apostles, the chief of whom was Peter, whose writings find a place in the New Testament. Additionally, what the Twelve were teaching after the Resurrection, we know from the book of the Acts of the Apostles. They were spreading the Gospel.

Christ’s Words are absolutely important. Equally important are His Actions, including His Death and Resurrection. It’s all part of who He was and what He came to do. It’s why we who are believers have that assurance and we proclaim what we do so boldly, because Christ Jesus manifested all of it; His Life bore witness to the truth of everything He spoke. That’s why every religion that has come since has some kind of place for Him. Even followers of religions which predate Him accord Him some kind of respect.

And of course I could say the same about Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah’s Words are absolutely important. Equally important are His Actions. It’s all part of who He was and what He came to do.

The salient difference between Jesus and Baha’u’llah is that we know exactly what Baha’u’llah did on His mission because it is modern history, and we know exactly what He wrote because we have the original scriptures penned in His own Hand and stamped with His official seal.

Of course, since Jesus came 2000 years ago, now people many recognize Him and pay Him homage and respect even if they are not Christians, but Jesus was little known in the first centuries and the Cause of Jesus was in a position similar to where the Cause of Baha’u’llah is now. Because of mass communications and the ability to travel all over the world, there are more Baha’is than there were Christians at the end of the first century, but Baha’u’llah is still far from a household word.

 

[Sundance]

I do not question the Crucifixion because it is validated by Baha’u’llah. As I recall, I think that Jesus’ Baptism is also noted in the Baha’i Writings.

In fact, Baha’u’llah wrote a moving passage about the trial of Jesus:

“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133

Thanks, I do not know the history that well because I was never a Christian. Most of what I have learned I have learned from posting to Christians on forums during the last seven years.

Yes, I know why Jews do not believe Jesus was the messiah and Bahaullah had some choice words to say about how and why the Jews rejected Jesus and “therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.”
You can read the whole paragraph on these pages: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 20-21

Well that’s good to hear.

And of course I could say the same about Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah’s Words are absolutely important. Equally important are His Actions. It’s all part of who He was and what He came to do.

The salient difference between Jesus and Baha’u’llah is that we know exactly what Baha’u’llah did on His mission because it is modern history, and we know exactly what He wrote because we have the original scriptures penned in His own Hand and stamped with His official seal.

Of course, since Jesus came 2000 years ago, now people many recognize Him and pay Him homage and respect even if they are not Christians, but Jesus was little known in the first centuries and the Cause of Jesus was in a position similar to where the Cause of Baha’u’llah is now. Because of mass communications and the ability to travel all over the world, there are more Baha’is than there were Christians at the end of the first century, but Baha’u’llah is still far from a household word.

I like this!

 

[Trailblazer]

I honor this. This reflects like a perfect mirror how I feel towards Jesus.

I am glad to hear that. I would never want to take away what you feel for Jesus and I feel some of the same.

You know, @Trailblazer, I sincerely apologize for my arrogance towards your religion. I think you Bahá’ís are doing groovy things in this world, and I’m not hateful towards you or Bahá’u’lláh at all. I recant all my negative thoughts about Bahá’ís or their faith that I may have expressed. I think it’s a beautiful religion, and as I mentioned in my OP, your conception of Jesus Christ is very close to what the New Testament teaches, and you know, I think that Bahá’ís are very similar to Christians in tons of ways that are positive. I consider Bahá’ís my dearly beloved brothers and sisters in humanity, not my enemies nor are they enemies of the Gospel.

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

No apologies necessary but they are greatly appreciated. Needless to say my own behavior towards Christians is not always what I would like, but Baha'is are in a very difficult position when it comes to Christianity given our claims.

I would probably have never thought anything about Jesus had I not become a Baha'i because I had no interest in God, the Bible or in religion before that, but having become a Baha'i I had to accept the Bible and Christianity as part of my beliefs, since that is an absolute requirement for Baha'is. The following quote is the authoritative 'position on Christianity' and how Baha'is are to regard it, written by the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth......

Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muḥammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 109-110

 

[Sundance]

Indeed.

@Trailblazer, you are my dearly beloved sister in humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Indeed.

@Trailblazer, you are my dearly beloved sister in humanity.

Likewise, you are my beloved brother.

 

[Trailblazer]

I like this!

Then you might also like what Baha'u'llah wrote about the power Jesus had to forgive sins.
This one brings tears to my eyes every time I read it...

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

 

[Sundance]

Then you might also like what Baha'u'llah wrote about the power Jesus had to forgive sins.
This one brings tears to my eyes every time I read it...

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

I’m very touched. Truly, Bahá’u’lláh was moved by the Holy Spirit.

“He who is not against us is for us.”

 

[Trailblazer]

I’m very touched. Truly, Bahá’u’lláh was moved by the Holy Spirit.

As was Jesus.

“Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52

 

[Sundance]

 

[CG Didymus]

I honor this. This reflects like a perfect mirror how I feel towards Jesus.

You know, @Trailblazer, I sincerely apologize for my arrogance towards your religion. I think you Bahá’ís are doing groovy things in this world, and I’m not hateful towards you or Bahá’u’lláh at all. I recant all my negative thoughts about Bahá’ís or their faith that I may have expressed. I think it’s a beautiful religion, and as I mentioned in my OP, your conception of Jesus Christ is very close to what the New Testament teaches, and you know, I think that Bahá’ís are very similar to Christians in tons of ways that are positive. I consider Bahá’ís my dearly beloved brothers and sisters in humanity, not my enemies nor are they enemies of the Gospel.

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

That's incredible. You show some real Christian love there. Now... how to you talk about the real differences in each religion and still keep that loving attitude of friendship and respect? Can you do it with a Mormon or JW? Or, a Moslem? I hope you try and I hope you succeed. It could change the world. Kind of like what Baha'is are attempting to do... getting all religions to realize they are all one.

 

[The Anointed]

I’ve encountered many different perspectives on Jesus and the Gospel, from the beauty of the Bahá’ís (which is rather close, in my opinion, to the NT), to the mind-blowing conception of certain Hindus as an expansion or plenary portion of God (namely, Krishna or Vishnu) in the material world, to others as another rising-and-dying deity worshipped alongside their own as followers of indigenous religions do, to others as a holy man or a renegade. No sweat here.

(By religion, I myself am no Christian, merely sympathetic to it.)

Yet, concerning Islam, my anger has been kindled. Why, you may ask? Well, they not only differ with the New Testament (which, again, is perfectly fine. Understandable.), but they claim that the Christians have it all wrong about Jesus, Jesus didn’t say what He’s recorded as having said about who He was and what He would do. He said something different from what they believe He said.

My question here is this: if Muslims say that Jesus was a prophet, would a prophet lie about his identity and his message?


Jesus in the New Testament claims to be the Son of God, many times referring to God as “[My] Father”. Those around Him understood that He made such claims. Why do Muslims ignore these passages? Additionally, He had foretold his own death (by crucifixion), and the New Testament makes it abundantly clear this is what became of Jesus, not to speak a word to His Resurrection from the dead and eventual return. Yet, Muslims claim that it was fabricated. He was not crucified, but was taken up to Heaven. Why, when both scripture and history confirm the Crucifixion of Jesus as having taken place?

I invite my Muslim friends to read His Words from themselves and evaluate whether or not He was a liar. If you’re willing to concede that He was telling the truth, logically speaking, it would nullify your religion’s claims, would it not?

Deuteronomy 18: 18; The Lord says to Moses----“I will send them a prophet just like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything that I command him to say. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he will speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish.”

Peter reveals who that prophet was, when in Acts 3: 12; in reference to the man Jesus, Peter says; “For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc.”

Did the people of his day believe that the man Jesus was some God, who had been born of a virgin? Of course not, the Jews who lived in the day of Jesus, knew that God had said to Moses that he would choose a man from among the Israelites and send him to speak in his name, and Peter in Acts 3: 22; verified that man to be Jesus the son of Mary, Plus the people of his day knew that he was the man that God had chosen from among the Israelites and sent to speak in his name, when on his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, they cried out: “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.”

The man Jesus was the earthly temple that was filled with the spirit of our Lord God and savior on the day that he was baptised, and it was the Lord who said through his obedient servant Jesus; "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days.

Who raised that temple three days after it was destroyed?

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

 

[eik]

What concerns me with Baháʼí is that there seems to be more than one "chosen One" of God. Flattering Christ or the "virgin Mary" with lip service as one amongst many is not what God desires. Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

The fact is Islam denies Christ as the son of God and it is not possible to believe in both Jesus and Mahomet at the same time as they are mutually contradictory. Mahometans do not credit the New Testament.

Also Christ wasn't "chosen" in the same way as other mortals were chosen to be God's servants. Rather God made himself to be the author of humanity's salvation by sending his own son,

 

[Trailblazer]

What concerns me with Baháʼí is that there seems to be more than one "chosen One" of God.

Baha'is do not call these individuals "chosen Ones" of God. We call them Manifestations of God, and we believe that they all had a mission from God. They were a reflection of God's Will and Purpose, so we are not supposed to discriminate against any of them.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60