• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Church Issue

Dave

Member
Doc said:
The Church did however teach that the universe in fact circled around the Earth and that the Earth was the center of all creation when in fact despite the evidence at hand presented by Gallileo, it was not. Not everything the Church taught was always right and not everything they teach today is always right.
Actually, the Church never did teach those things. However, there were those in the Church who believed that certain passages should be taken more literally than they were meant to be taken based on appearances (e.g. the sun rising and setting -- it appears to rise and set but we now know it's the earth moving toward and away from the sun that simply makes it look like it's rising or setting). In addition, another problem was that the Church had been dealing with the Protestant "Reformation," and there was a lot of controversy surrounding issues of personal interpretation of Scripture. And the pope at the time, Urban VIII, was weary of controversy.

But despite the guilty verdict, he Church has never claimed ordinary tribunals, such as the one that judged Galileo, to be infallible. Church tribunals have disciplinary and juridical authority only; neither they nor their decisions are infallible.

No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility.

Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

In Galileo’s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo’s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his.

Was it right to burn heretics?
Or excommunicate those who opposed them?
The Church never actually taught that it was ok to burn heretics. That didn't stop various members of the Church from doing so, but the Church never taught it to be morally ok. Excommunication is ok too -- Christ told us that if a person wouldn't listen to you, other witnesses, or the Church, to treat him like a tax collector.

Is it right for them to exclude women from Holy Orders? I know they can be nuns but they have the right to be priests also!
No woman has the right to be a priest! Actually, no one at all has a right to be a priest. Rather, it's a privilege to which God calls certain people. However, He does NOT call women to be priests, nor has He ever done so. None of the 12 apostles were women, and yet if Jesus had wanted to, He could've made his Blessed Mother an apostle or Mary Magdalene. But that's all I'm gonna say on the topic for now, as the topic of this thread isn't about women's ordination. However, the teaching that only men can be priests is infallible by virtue of the ordinary universal magisterium. If you deny it, then you're not in communion with the Church and have no business receiving Holy Communion -- if you do receive it you commit sacrilege.

According to Jesus, once people were brought together in Matrimony, they were eternally bound together through Christ! Yet still they can be divorced and anulled by the Church today.
You misunderstand. Annulments aren't "Catholic divorce." An annulment means that there was something existing at the time a marriage took place that kept it from being a valid, sacramental marriage. For example, adultery wouldn't in itself be grounds for an annulment, but if it was obvious before the wedding that one of the spouses had no intention of being faithful, that would invalidate the marriage.

Someone also said that if you don't agree with everything the Church says, then you should leave.
I agree, you should. At least it would be honest to admit you no longer believe as a Catholic and leave instead of staying in the Church and continuing to call yourself Catholic, all the while conspiring to destroy the Church from within (and note that when I say "you" I'm speaking collectively, not just to Doc).

Francis did not agree with certain beliefs of the Church when he began the Franciscan Order yet was still able to internally reform it without leaving! DId this make him a heretic or a sinner? He put him and his followers in harms away and opposed several things in which many people would have been burned for doing so! Yet at the end of his life, he received the stigmata, maybe the most honorable symbol that one could receive. He could not have been too bad a person for that.
St. Francis never opposed any Church doctrines! But first, I want you to prove that he did.

All I am trying to say is that the people who rule the church are just like you and me! They are sinners and make mistakes like any other normal human being.
True, they're sinners just like you and me. But the Church cannot teach wrongly. That has nothing to do with how sinful the members of the Magisterium is; it has no bearing on their ability to teach infallibly.

And Doc, let me repeat what I said earlier. Jesus said that whoever listens to His apostles listens to Him. And whoever rejects the apostles rejects Him. Although He was speaking directly to the apostles, what He said was also directed at the apostles' successors -- the popes and bishops of the Catholic Church. Thus, when the Church teaches something, it's God teaching us. And we can have complete confidence that if the Church teaches something, then it's true, and it's to be believed. Not to believe is a mortal sin because it's putting your feelings and opinions above God. Thus, if you're not willing to accept ALL the Church's teachings, you need to stop receiving Communion until and unless you repent of your refusal to submit to Church teaching via the sacrament of penance. Because as long as you do receive Holy Communion while denying Church teachings, you commit sacrilege, objectively speaking.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Doc said:
The way I define the Eucharist I receive is not as cannibalism! When you receive the Eucharist, your not really eating his foot or an arm in a physical sense! Try to think of it as soul nourishment where it is more of Jesus's spirit filling you with the graces and guidance of your daily goings ons! If you think of it as receiving his spirit, then it may help for some people or it may not!

That clears it up a bit... but why is it called the blood and body of Christ if it's spiritual, not physical? That's the part that confuses me.
 

Doc

Space Chief
Sorry, perhaps doctrine in that case was not the right word! What I meant to say was that Francis opposed the Church's attitude toward life! He felt that many officials were being caught up in the material worldy possessions instead of living accordingly to Jesus! Francis chose poverty against the popular belief that people could find salvation while still enjoying the worldly possessions and pleasures!

And I am still confused on excommunication! If that occurs to a person, do they ever have a chance of being brought back into the Church if they truly wish to change their lives for the better! I will post no more because it is nearly 1 am here in Ohio and I am tired!
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Dave said:
The scenario you propose is moot because the Church CANNOT teach error. So it CANNOT teach that the world is flat.

Something just occurred to me... if the Church can't teach error, what does it teach about the saints based on pagan gods?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Jensa said:
That clears it up a bit... but why is it called the blood and body of Christ if it's spiritual, not physical? That's the part that confuses me.
Well, it is physical... I think Doc was just trying to make it easier for you to understand, but Catholics believe:
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."
The host becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of the bread and wine.
I know this may be difficult to understand, and it always has been:
"That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority."

Peace,
Scott
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Jensa said:
Something just occurred to me... if the Church can't teach error, what does it teach about the saints based on pagan gods?

Won't somebody answer that? I'm really curious to know what they teach about them.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Jensa said:
Won't somebody answer that? I'm really curious to know what they teach about them.
I don't understand what your question is.... what does that have to do with teaching error?

Scott
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
SOGFPP said:
I don't understand what your question is.... what does that have to do with teaching error?

Scott

Does the Catholic church teach that the saints based on pagan gods are that, or do they say they were actual people that are now reguarded as saints?
 

logos

Member
Jensa said:
Does the Catholic church teach that the saints based on pagan gods are that, or do they say they were actual people that are now reguarded as saints?
The Catholic Church teaches that they are people like you or I that are now regarded as saints.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
You said the Catholic church says Brigid/Brigit was a person. Brigid/Brigit was a Celtic deity. I don't know how that doesn't meet the standards for lying.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
logos said:
The Catholic Church teaches that they are people like you or I that are now regarded as saints.

Ah... I understand this. The Church, though, are going to have to be reaching quite far if they decide I am saint material, heheee. However, Brighid was percieved by those that worshipped her as a Goddess in her own right. (And still is, by many, today.) There's two different things in seeing that the Catholic church would teach how 'ordinary' people might someday become saints, and seeing how a Goddess would become a Saint. (Which is not to say that I think the Church is lying. I haven't even read the background of Saint Brighid, and I wouldn't presume to say they are automatically the same person/ diety.)
 

logos

Member
Jensa said:
You said the Catholic church says Brigid/Brigit was a person. Brigid/Brigit was a Celtic deity. I don't know how that doesn't meet the standards for lying.
No, I said saints are people like you or I. I never specified a specific person, you made that connection. To be honest, I don't know anything about Brigid/Brigit. I was merely telling you how the Church views saints.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Jensa said:
Does the Catholic church teach that the saints based on pagan gods are that, or do they say they were actual people that are now reguarded as saints?

logos said:
The Catholic Church teaches that they are people like you or I that are now regarded as saints.

Emphasis mine.

It can be assumed that the 'they' you were referring to were the pagan gods, since you quoted me and that's what I asked. I didn't ask about saints, I asked about saints based on pagan gods.
 

logos

Member
Jensa said:
Emphasis mine.

It can be assumed that the 'they' you were referring to were the pagan gods, since you quoted me and that's what I asked. I didn't ask about saints, I asked about saints based on pagan gods.
Ok, sorry about the confusion. :bonk: By "they" I meant those people that the Church has canonized as saints. I therefore did not directly answer your question with regard to the Church basing saints upon pagan deities. However, I have never heard of this before and, as far as I know, the saints that I know about have never been associated with pagan deities.

The only St. Brigid I am aware of is St. Brigid of Ireland, of whose biography you can read here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02784b.htm

Also found this article which might help clear things up as well http://www.aoh.com/history/archive/stbrigid.htm
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
logos said:
Ok, sorry about the confusion. :bonk: By "they" I meant those people that the Church has canonized as saints. I therefore did not directly answer your question with regard to the Church basing saints upon pagan deities. However, I have never heard of this before and, as far as I know, the saints that I know about have never been associated with pagan deities.

The only St. Brigid I am aware of is St. Brigid of Ireland, of whose biography you can read here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02784b.htm

Also found this article which might help clear things up as well http://www.aoh.com/history/archive/stbrigid.htm


Hey, stop that bonking! :D You were only trying to help! *hugs*
 
Top